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Tim Hirst

I wonder how often each day people in today’s RN curse those that agreed to build both the Albions and Bays without proper helicopter facilities?

Sunmack

Another example of short sighted penny pinching which hugely damages long term capability

Meirion X

The Albions would have needed another deck layer, which would have made them much heavier and more expensive too.

It depended on the budget for their construction, wether they got a hanger!

Last edited 6 months ago by Meirion X
Tim Hirst

I can see how it would have needed work on the Albions. But the Bays could have been built like their Dutch cousins or had a “simple” metal box hangar, workshop and store where the current tent is.

Phillip Johnson

I would agree on a hangar on the Bays but the temporary tent is pretty much over the vehicle lift which constrains the tents usefulness.
If you were to put a hangar on the Bays it would be behind the cranes which would mean moving the diesel exhausts….again.

Gunbuster

The tent isnt that near the lift. Its well clear of it. It doesnt restrict anything.

Phillip Johnson

You sure, the lift is just forward of the 2 cranes which put the the forward edge of the lift in the rear of the tent directly in line with the hangar door

X

The Albions did have aviation facilities at one point in the design. But they were get rid off to save money. And so quite literally one deck was just rubbed out! Hence their appearance.

The Bays are a different story. Unlike their Enforce brethren they were configured to carry cargo not act as an assault ship. What did happen though was the uptake was redesigned radically and extensively supposedly to stop efflux interfering flight operations. This lead to other problems. And nobody is sure what problems they as all the other Enforcers operate helicopters.

If the Albions were to be replaced, which they should be won’t, I would like to see something like the US San Antonio’s big and fast. (A full length flight deck like JMSDF Ōsumi-class tank landing ship too.)

Donaldson

Are the Bays not primary assault ships on the cheap? To a layman it can do everything Albion/Bulwark can minus C2 facilities.

X

No. They are based on Damen’s Enforcer yes. But their role is to carry cargo.

X

So they were purchased for what reason then by the Naval Service’s logistics arm?

And Damen aren’t the design authority.

You will get fed up of downvoting before I will get tired of rebutting.

borg

A child like mentality or simple Mental Illness is seldom cured by rebuttals. your Downvoter feels comfortable in this place and probably feels that he/she has a purpose here that satisfies his special needs. Have some counter Upvotes on me.

X

You would think a site promoting an aim would care about posts with facts being downvoted. It doesn’t. Says a lot about how seriously they take their cause.

borg

Yes X, It’s been the same on many other sites. I came here to help save the Royal Navy but have yet to work out exactly how it possibly can, Not sure who is even seeing this site, or who even takes it seriously enough to present it to those in charge. Lot’s of Armchair Admirals though.

X

Well I have been down voted again. It makes the site look very stupid.

borg

And the odd Sniper !

Gunbuster

they have a well dock, can carry LCUs and LCVPs , loads of Royals and plenty of storage space. They are assault ships on the cheap for taking stuff from point A and delivering it via LCU at B. C4 is very lacking onboard despite the oddles of space on the thrings.

X

The dock of a Bay can carry one MK10. The rest of the volume is used for outsize cargo like vehicles.

An LPD whose primary role is to carry the initial assault can dock four Mk10’s to move a mass of ‘troops’ and vehicles forward.

One is an RFA ship for logisitcal support.

One is a RN warship for fighting.

As you mention they don’t have the necessary C4 kit because they don’t need it.

borg

Sitting in the Dock of the Bay, I was watching the Tide roll away, Wasting Time. or words to that effect.

Meirion X

Thanks for that info, GB!

X

Transporting troops by sea isn’t amphibious warfare.

X

The reason why the Bays’ don’t have hangars. Cargo space.
comment image

AlexS

You can put containers on deck.

The Italians manage all amphibious with San Giorgio Class and eventually the Trieste.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giorgio-class_amphibious_transport_dock

AlexS

The French also went for LHD’s

Cam

Couldn’t we just put a metal box on the Albions and just have one heli spot instead of two?

X

Would you not be reducing lift (and mass)?

X

You have flight deck area or hangar space. A helicopter can lift next to nothing as it is. And the cost of that is a lot per hour on top of the cost of the platform.

Cam

Ah right x👍

Don

The orginal plan for the amphib group was
4 bays
2 albions
2 oceans

The 2 oceans having the aviation facilities for the amphib group.
Unfortunately the plan never reach full fruition with one ocean being cancelled. Then recently the other ocean being sold. Also down a bay sold to Australia.

borg

Was this before the MP’s Pension scheme was found to be falling a little short ?

Phillip

The Cummings faction in Whitehall, along with Max Hastings and some blokes that read something on the internet, believe we should be radically shaping our forces away from ‘heavy metal’ and rely entirely on autonomous systems, AI, cyber and other assorted vapourware.”

The “some blokes that read something on the internet” line genuinely made me laugh out loud

Supportive Bloke

My solution is simple – put Max on one of his improvised aircraft carriers in a high sea state with an old Harrier and get him to change the engine so he can experience what it is like to try and maintain aircraft with no facilities.

Hopefully he get washed over the side – actually scratch that as it would put someone at risk fishing him out. His burble nonsense puts enough good people at risk without adding to the headcount.

Have you ever tried to physically work on something that requires high levels of precision and skill while you are soaked through and freezing cold Max? Thought not.

Yes, you can do it in extremis but no sane person would want to operate that way. Compare the quality, important for safety and force generation, of doing the work in a hangar on a QEC with weather shelter and where the temperature can be controlled so you can feel things with your hands.

Rant over.

4thwatch

I thought he was still fixated on 4 engine heavy bombers winning the war against Germany.

Supportive Bloke

Ensuring the safety of the ship’s company is an evolving management challenge”

Good NBC training – avoiding cross contamination etc

Gunbuster

Its a lot more complex than NBC protocols. The precautions for just getting onboard as a contractor are formidable. Then there is the isolation protocols for new joiners and leavers. Testing regimes. One of the biggest factors at present is the Ships Companies who can only get onto the immediate jetty area to blow off steam once in a while.
The Dinosaurs of my generation are laughing it off as “life in a blue suit” but the youngsters are a little more sensitive and some are struggling with it.

borg

How many of the UK’s current 17 F35 B’s will embark ? We only seem to see 4 at any one Time. Interesting to read that up to 72 Aircraft can be Carried in “Surge” situations. Hermes was very heavy on our trip South.

Donaldson

5 UK F-35B for the upcoming Groupex / JW202 with 10 USMC F-35B in addition, Then for CSG21 8 UK F-35B with 6 USMC F-35B.

It’ll be a while yet to see QEC with 24 UK F-35Bs.

ETH

72 jets seems to border on the theoretical maximum in terms of space, but ignores most other factors. Such as maintenance, deck space, helicopters, the ships ability to sustain such a force and if jets can be stored on the deck for longer periods, exposed to sea water.

I’ve heard a number of 48 jets + 12(ish) helos as a surge force which would still be capable of fighting a war without some serious compromises/inefficiencies. 72 is similar to the Nimitz’s 100 something theoretical maximum.

borg

“Aircraft” includes helicopters and quite possibly Drones, not just Jets. 72 would pretty much be the limit of available Spare Merlins, Wildcats, Chinooks and F35B’s when other ship requirements are taken into account.

Supportive Bloke

I’m not sure having 72 airframes on board would be a good idea in terms of doing anything practical. The choreography of moving anything would be terrible and terribly time consuming.

48 F35B is a massive punch – you would be better off with 48 and extra pilots and maintainers in shifts so you get the most out of the airframes you have in front of you. Plenty of decent accommodation on a QEC. And the ability to rotate airframes off onto a ferry vessel for so they could be shuttled off for deep maintenance on land.

Anythign more is Willy waving a bit like when CDG was loaded out for a photo op. It is in the USN interests for the QEC to be seen as a big hitter as it takes pressure off their carrier rotations. And before anyone say QEC vs Nimitz that isn’t the point. If you are sending something from the gator navy to do aircraft carrier duties then the QEC is a lot more potent in terms of pure mass, force generation and number of aircraft carried.

Therefore I’m sure it will be done at some point when Stateside but it will have zero practical purpose.

borg

In Peacetime, We will probably never have anywhere near “Surge” Conditions so yes, I agree but in times of War, It would prove to be extremely practical to be able to embark such numbers. Think FW 1982.

Gavin Gordon

Is this the same AI champion Cummings who’s lorded abilities don’t currently seem to stretch to saving AIM from being sold done the river, but do not stop him utilising his position of influence to bully those lesser mortals who come within his Whitehall orbit? The same saviour Cummings who developed a prediliction for praising genocidal Soviet tyrants subsequent to having spent time in Russia?

Phillip

The same one who thinks going for a drive while suffering vision problems is a safe way of testing one’s eyesight

Joe16

With his family in the car, no less- top bloke

Last edited 6 months ago by Joe16
Gavin Gordon

Should have said ARM, of course. Either way, it’s almost certainly now Nvidia – batted around the markets like a shuttlecock by companies that don’t give a toss for ‘commitments’.
Ultimately, the worst offenders are our own Institutional ‘Investors’ who sell world renowned British concerns for the fastest buck they can pocket. ‘Investors’ mostly run by the privileged elite to which Cummings and his ilk belong; a section of our society that has consistently proven itself among the most self-centred and patriotically suspect over decades, secrets included.
However, the Goverment could still show more backbone and legislate against their shenanigans where our priceless national assets are involved.
Regards

William

Does anyone know how many US personnel will be on board?

Cam

I don’t think Britain could have a better partner on the F35b than the USA 🇺🇸 🇬🇧 And their Marines, it’s a shame we British don’t have Royal Marine F35b pilots but we should have. We should be So proud that USA took the global power/superpower role of the UK after WW2. We are two nations that share more in common than any other nations bar Some of the commonwealth nations.

USA 🇺🇸, Canada 🇨🇦 ,OZ 🇦🇺, New Zealand 🇳🇿 ,UK 🇬🇧, are the best nations on earth and arguably the most popular and the nations all other nations civilians want to immigrate to.

We British should be proud of our nation, too many UK citizens these days want to slag off and call us British Racist and a horrible nation!!!… these people clearly don’t understand the UK has done more good for the world than bad, and it’s by a huge Margins that the UK has done good. The lists actually far too large with all the British achievements… Just the British Vaccine creation has saved hundreds of millions alone! And penicillin!!. Two things of tens of thousands that Britain gave the World….

Last edited 6 months ago by Cam
Paul T

I find it interesting that for HMS Queen Elizabeth’s Deployment there will be a ‘Hat Trick’ if you like of AAW Assets – USN AB with US Manufactured Radars and Weapons,HNLMS Evertsen with European Manufactured Radars but with US Weapons,and finally the Royal Navy Type 45’s with both European Manufactured Radars and Weapons,and with only the AB fitted with CEC is it still possible for all the different Systems to co-ordinate with each other ?.

ETH

Are any of the trio link 16 compatible?

Gunbuster

All are

DaveyB

It’s about time Link-16 was replaced with something with a broader bandwidth that can handle the amount of data, oh wait that’s CEC – duh!

rec

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-54175481 a bright future for shipbuilding?

Simon m

I hope so & just hope it’s not just political guff like the number of COVID-19 tests per day.
IMO with unemployment high every opportunity should be taken to employ people on government projects including military & hopefully up skill parts of the population as well.

4thwatch

In the day the government built fishing boats for the Navy which could be used for fishing when peace came. In those days we had a huge fishing fleet; admittedly some were fishing Iceland’s waters for cod. Most of the deep sea boats were requisitioned into the RN as minesweepers etc.

Joe16

Just another thing to add, the USMC F-35s are from the Wake Island Avengers, who are the first unit to fly combat missions from an amphibious assault ship and drop live ordnance with the B-model, over Syria and Iraq last year. It’ll be good to have the most combat experienced F-35B pilots exercising with us, even if that experience is still relatively limited at the moment due to the newness of the platform.

[…] plănuiesc să desfășoare în toamna aceasta în Marea Mediterană și în Marea Neagră o forță amfibie experimentală denumită sugestiv […]

Something different

Excellent to see a well balanced carrier battle group being prepared that shows off the integration with other NATO assets while demonstrating sovereign capabilities.

I really hope this capability is not sacrificed on the alter of ‘agile’ (too light to fight), ‘flexible’ (good at nothing in particular), cyber (important but a nebulous field that can only do so much) and what ever buzzwords are in fashion. I’m not into fantasy fleets, but there is actual metal in the water that can actually deliver proper effects whether against, land, sea, sub sea or air targets. Let’s not ruin it after waiting so long to see it come to fruition (since arguably omegas were painted on phantoms).

4thwatch

The future is rubber boats didn’t you know?!