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Jukestrooz

To be fair, no one cares in France. British don’t care much about castillon, isn’t?

Last edited 11 days ago by Jukestrooz
Charlie

Of course, they don’t care. It’s the curse of officialdom being offended on behalf of others. Extraordinary.

Order of the Ditch

I personally think Achilles is the better of the two names.
But it is worth remembering that the Royal Navy didn’t even exist until almost two hundred years after Agincourt took place, why name a Royal Navy asset after a land battle that took place before its existence?

Jim

There have been a number of RN ships over a few centuries given that name, not sure it makes any difference and as the article says, it was not actually formally named.

Charlie

There have been five ships that carried the name Agincourt. It honours those ships as much as the battle of Agincourt. Stupid decision.

Bigpod

And six HMS Achilles!

Charlie

I don’t have a problem with the name Achilles. Indeed, if I had been naming the boats initially, I would have chosen Achilles over Agincourt. I love the Nelsonian/Aboukir connection with Greek mythology, the band of brothers, and all that. That misses the point, though. That someone somewhere decided that this was a thing is symptomatic of a massive decline. I know it seems trivial, but I don’t think it is. Something is wrong in this country.

Will

Yes indeed. It’s what happens when your national identity is subjected to constant attacks across the entire society by post-WWII one worlders. If they succeed in their long march to take over your institutions, cultural rot sets in. After awhile, this rot turns to gangrene.

Last edited 10 days ago by Will
Beian

How many years after Achillies was first spoken/written about did the RN first come into being? At least Agincourt is a more verifiable event than Homers Iliad.

Andrew Deacon

Ajax was the first name – presumably renamed after confusion with armoured vehicles that damage hearing.

Duker

Wasnt it Ajax instead of Agamemnon. An obscure name even when it was last used for an AMC in 1939
Only 3 previous warships

Jonno

HMS Agamemnon was Nelsons favourite ship.

Hamish UK

No Ajax was renamed to Agincourt and now to Achilles.

Jim

It’s a great name either way you look at it.

Jim

I guess as she was never formally named, the heading reads a bit wrong. Maybe it should say boat no 7 formally named Achilles.

Lord Curzon

I remember when the reactor contracts were negotiated with Rolls…this one has been a long time coming and ironically a delay may end up being something of a blessing!

Phil Chadwick

Re naming is nothing new. Elephant was renamed Hermes, Irresistible was changed to Ark Royal.. I like the name Achilles. I remember the last one, F12, a Gun Leander..

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Andrew Deacon

You might be Irresistible, but Indomitable became Ark Royal!

Martin

He is alluding to 4th Ark Royal (sister ship to Eagle). You are too though. The 3rd Invincible class carrier was originally intended to be Indomitable- changed when earlier Ark Royal was paid off in 979

Andrew Deacon

Wiki says 4th one was originally HMS Audacious, so we’re all confused! My Dad saw 3rd HMS Ark Royal sink in 1941 and we both saw Eagle and then Ark Royal towed for scrap from Devonport.

Paul42

The 3rd Invincible was re-named Ark Royal at the request of the late Queen Mother. Shame QE & POW are named after Battleships instead of Eagle and Ark Royal.

Last edited 9 days ago by Paul42
Scooby

Who wrote this!! Firstly, it’s Sir Gavin Williamson, secondly it is HMNZS not RNZNS! Attention to detail please!

Otterman

Gracious, there’s a ‘who’s’ that should be a ‘whose’ too!

Sean

Perhaps the renaming is due to, what they call in politics, ‘the optics’.
HMS Agincourt is now associated with the fire at Barrow, HNS Achilles isn’t. It might sound trite but Windscale to Sellafield, etc, this kind of renaming has been done in the past to dissociate from previous accidents.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Sean

I very strongly suspect that you are 100% right….i.e. about this being “the optics”

  • ….because this rather-hastily rushed out annoucement about the SSN renaming has, – as Sean has just quite-righly pointed out above – the “Yes Minister” look about it…
  • So three months on = there has been still no official annoucement, nor follow up, from either BAE or MOD about the actual damage – i.e. delays and cost – caused by that huge fire
  • and, even more interestingly, this one is the second high-profile “good news” annoucement about RN submarines made in just the past week
  • this is, after all, what used to be called the silent service….
  • so anybody would think that Sir Humphery in the MOD PR department is trying to distract the Editor of Navy Lookout
  • …..from discovering some really bad news….

If I was nasty suspicious person – which (obviously) I am not – I would now be very seriously wondering about the real reason why the long-awaited defence review has just been postposed….

——————-

All of which makes it even more remarkable that – in this official photo – that a very large cage full of oxy-acetylene bottles is postioned, very prominently, front foreground

So BAE

  • really need to take their fire preacuations far more seriously
  • and, if this renaming is really all about the optics = BAE also need to think very seriously about what photos they publish to accompany such a big announcement (note 2)

Mind you… what does one expect from a c**p company – one run entirely by beancounters?….

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

  • Note 1. For Mr Pedantic – BAE is spelt with a large E at the end
  • Note 2. I would have expected to be sacked for allowing this photo out…..
Supportive Bloke

Those gas bottles are white/grey with a black top so are colour coded as nitrogen – to my eyes at any rate?

Jim

Yes, they are positioned at regular intervals around the boats.

Supportive Bloke

They could actually be for nitrogen gas flood – to put out internal fires in compartments?

Duker

For Temp Acting Sub Lieutenant Irate everything is a disaster waiting to happen

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Supportive Bloke

Having now just adjusted my set – from black and white to full techniclour – I will agree with you that the offending rack of bottles do appear to be nitrogen.

So, all in all, whilst I must now admit that I was in error for saying in my orginal post (above) that these were oxy-actylene…..

In my defence, I will point out that nobody has since offered an both an obvious and also entirely plausible explaination for what the big rack of bottles are actually doing there….

I would very much doubt they are for fire-fighting. There is no obvious way of pumping the nitrogen gas into the submarine and, furthermore, using nitrogen to fight fires would be a very good way of killing off the unprotected workforce within a very confined space

So, whilst I was quite-rightly corrected on the bottle contents…

…..all in all it still very sloppy practice to leave large numbers of compressed bottled gases just lying about; especially in the are where ther are man vhecile movements

…and – even worse – to then photograph them “officially” …..

…..inside a nuclear licenced site just after a very big fire..

—————————–

and let us not forget what those very nice chaps and chapese’s from the ONR (Office of Nuclear Regulation) said when they last carried out an full inspection of the BAE Devonshire Hall back in December 2023

I quote the ONR’s report of Dec 2023 precisely, word for word:..

“During the walkdown of DDH several accumulations of combustibles were noted as well as the consolidation of laydown spaces to form a large area of combustible loading.”

Anybody would think that the ONR inspector had crystal balls!

The next ONR report, for the last six months of 2024 – which is due out quite soon – should make VIP (Note 1).

So I will stand by my key comment : BAE are now offically designated a 3CPY organisation:

C**P****Y C**P*Y C***P**Y

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Note 1. VIP = Very Interesing Paperwork

Supportive Bloke

Assuming you are not fighting the fire directly and are just flooding the compartment with nitrogen to upset the fire triangle?

The other use for N2 would be for pressure testing sensitive pipe work that could be done with air?

Or for pressure testing conduits and enclosures that are kept at slight positive inert pressure to stop moisture ingress?

Or it could be for purging the cryogenic dewar for the device that we won’t mention that magically makes the sub non magnetic? Mind you, you wouldn’t want that energised long before launch?

Personally I wouldn’t be that bothered about a load of N2 in a bottle cage like that.

Whereas I was a bit more concerned about some of the photos emerging from the yard if Boaty Mc Boatface fame where gas bottles did appear to be self supporting…

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Supportive Bloke

Definitely not for fire-fighting – at least, not for any reputable FF system I know of…

(Note: However N is used elsewhere for fire-prevention, such as inside the British Library’s big archive building at Boston Spa. However large volumes of N are never used in “manned areas”, simply due to risk of gassing the workforce from a lack of O)

I must admit that I had thought of all of the other possible applications – pressure testing, purging, charging up unmentionables etc etc.

However, at this very late stage of this sub’s build programme, why the large bottles and why are so many outside, located well below the hull?

Surely for testing, purging pipework etc etc when working internally, one ideally wants much smaller bottles – so ones that are very easily and quickly manhandled internally through passageways, down ladders etc etc?

Or, even better, why not run a common user line through the sub, with many take off points – thus prevnting the need to take any N bottles inside!

Whilst I am not “particularly bothered” about this issue, the main reason I did point it out in my orginal post was because (to me) it is yet another exampe of the very sloppy working practices common throughout all of BAE Barrow: i.e. many very long-standing issues caused by their absentee bean-counter corporate leadership and agrevated by ****poor on-site mangement and supervision

After all….I was commenting on a staged publicity photo – one that should be distributed far and wide to publicise BAE and the RN

Thus this other wise excellent photo was spoilt only by the mystery bottles and also by a blurry member of the workforce

….. one who quite-clearly could not be a**ed to wait when asked to do so – when he was on his way out of the door on the way home…

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Tim Errington

I believe that the guns from the NZ Achilles are in Devonport, Auckland, New Zealand

Jim

Thanks for that, I would love to know where, just did a GM search but didn’t spot them in the open, I guess they are under cover ?

Deepsixteen

One turret is by the entrance from spring road or street if I remember correctly

There's grey in my beard

Got it.

Tim

Jim, according to Google search the guns can be found at the entrance to the museum in Devonport Naval base. NZ.

Jim

OK, Found them now, Gate Guardian at the base, I was looking all over for the entrance.

Duker

From the NZ navy museum website

JDC-0001-Achilles-Turret-3-scaled1
Hilbal

From the Pakistani Navy website

Last edited 11 days ago by Hilbal
Hilbal

,

images
There's grey in my beard

Rubbish, that’s the twin 4.5 on display at the Gosport Explosion Museum. Nothing to do with Achilles and thousands of miles from Pakistan.

Jim

Ha, yes exactly.

David Graham

Agreed.

Jim

I know this gun, it’s on display at Gosport along with many others. The Museum is well worth a visit and a short trip on the Gosport ferry is a great way to view whatever ships are alongside, plus a visit to Portsmouth is always interesting.

Sailorboy

Yay, things that go bang!
Explosion is a really good museum actually, especially with all of the models of 1950s missile projects.

Jim

I love museums, I try to visit a few each time I go Motor homing. Portsmouth is fantastic, I could spend days looking around all the exhibits. HMS Warrior is absolutely brilliant. Bovington Tank Museum is amazing too. The Redoutable at Cherbourg is another great exhibit and I also love to visit Cosford and the smaller Coventry air museum when in the area. Never been to Duxford but it’s on my list.

Sailorboy

I’ve done Cosford, all of the Portsmouth ones, Redoubtable and the IWM, but never got the chance to go to Bovington.
I missed out on a CCF trip to Duxford a couple of years ago to go indoors skydiving, but might end up going this summer instead.
Redoubtable was probably the best of them for the galleries explaining submarine warfare, it’s just a pity it’s all in French.

Jim

Bovington is a must mate and you can also visit Monkey World and if you like history, you can stand beside TE Lawrences Grave just up the road in Moreton, I have and it was rather strange ….or visit his home not far away.

Mr Shaw had a pretty eventful life in many ways, He was instrumental in developing RAF Rescue boats for downed aircrew and after his death, his Doctor went on to develop the motorcycle crash helmet.

It’s such a shame he only made the one film though.

Jonno

There we go! The French have FS Redoubtable; the name of the ship that killed Nelson at Trafalgar.

We must stop this being ashamed of our past. Most of it was Amazing, Glorious and certainly very interesting.

Charlie

It matters because some low-grade civil servants decided something that was never a problem in the first place was problematic. No wonder the country is in such a mess.

Last edited 11 days ago by Charlie
Duker

Nope. Decided by The lords of the Admiralty. Im guessing the CDS Admiral Radakin had a hand as well

Watcherzero

King Charles rejected the name and the application to the College of Arms for a change to the Heraldry was made a year ago.

Jonno

I did suspect, sorry about that.

stephen ball

Optics being a thing, If this sub was to operate in the Pacific would the kiwis stop HMS Achilles from port?

Or would the kiwis have a discussion on the nuclear free zone.

Jim

I think you will find that Perth will be the only base to see them “port”. Well at least that’s the latest news. Obviously Perth is a hell of a long way from NZ but NZ has no interest in basing N boats as far as I know.

Andrew Deacon

But there’s the AUKUS ones, not necessarily the UK ones, so NZ may have to at least provide emergency docking.

Jim

True, It’s a big old Sea.
I guess we’ll see in the future.

Jonno

I hope we can still go and base it in the Chagos.

Jim

Chagos has no port as such, well nothing on the size or complexity that would be required. It’s pretty much an Airbase.

James

Both great names. But Im more concerned about the fire and any damage

Carl Stewart

My God the woke lot want to grow up

Last edited 11 days ago by Carl Stewart
Jim

What can you add about how the Woke lot have had any influence on this ?
It’s my understanding that Boat 7 never actually had an official name. Why do you feel that naming it after a Greek legend is more woke than a French battle ?

Andrew Deacon

I imagine Agincourt was in day to day usage at Barrow though.

Sean

Ever worked in a movie, the working title used during filming and on set is rarely the one it premiers with.

Jim

Probably, just like Boaty Macboatface. !

Kevin Spencer

We’ve spent hundreds of years battling the French, who gives a damn about offending them.
It’s a submarine, a weapon of war, not a cuddly toy ffs.

Jim

Anyway, despite the inevitable farcical comments yet to come, I for one don’t care what it’s called as long as it gets launched. This project was first envisaged way back in the 1980’s … Here we are some 40 years later and this boat is the last of them.

AUKUS will be the follow on and let’s hope we can learn from the recent past. Barrow lost 10.000 skilled workers last time, that’s 10,000 fewer skilled people, Astute class suffered greatly from this. Let’s keep it all going now.

Airman

The journalist needs to learn to spell ‘Achilles’ correctly in the heading too.

Andrew Deacon

You’ve got a Flotilla of Armchair Admirals to proof read for you!

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Airman and Editor

Thank you for pointing this out

When I orginally spotted it – I had thought it was a MOD spending cut (i.e. not a spelling mistake).

After all, every little helps: and lettering is expensive!

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Andrew Deacon

When is someone going to realise HMS Belfast is unworkable, despite the original now being HMS Belfast (1938)? Last operational name change was RFA Fort Grange to RFA Fort Rosalie to avoid confusion with RFA Fort George..

Last edited 11 days ago by Andrew Deacon
Challenger

Agreed. We’ve already got a HMS Belfast moored on the Thames. I think the T26 bearing the name should be changed to Bristol, Southampton or Exeter to represent the South West.

Andrew Deacon

Plymouth even! Tricky bit is there’s Cardiff, London and Edinburgh there so will need something for NI – recall Londonderry and Ulster previously but there’s political sensitivities to worry about.

Duker

Doubt is still in commission

Jonathan

no we have Belfast moored on the Thames, Belfast is not a commissioned warship so she is not HMS Belfast, she was once HMS Belfast…same with Warrior. The only museum ship that is a HMS is HMS Victory as she is still a commissioned warship.

Jonno

She legally flies the White Ensign, so she is kind of a Commissioned warship.

Jonathan

Hi Jonno, no the imperial war museum have a letter of permission to fly the white ensign from HMG. She is not a commissioned warship. There are actually loads of boat that are entitled to fly the white ensign and are not commissioned warships…have a sail around the Solent…

Sean

Why is it unworkable? It’s never ever going to be confusion over which ship is being referred to – at least within the RN.

Andrew Deacon

“at least within the RN” – you’ve answered your own question! There’ll be plenty of non RN people needing to find her.

Hugo

Internet isn’t exactly going to give a google maps to Devenport

Jonathan

The grand old ship is not actually HMS, she is no longer commissioned and therefore is not a HMS. Same with Warrior.

Tony

Don’t want to upset the French so calling it Achilles.

Definition of Achillies: Achilles’ heel” is an idiom that refers to a weakness in a person or system that can lead to failure. It can also refer to a physical vulnerability.

WEEKNESS AND VULNERABILITY.

Duker

The Greek hero came first.

Sean

Who says it’s to avoid upsetting the French, it’s not what the RN is saying.

Jim

Morning, and exactly, it’s the normal news companies fuelling social media and people jump on the woke wagon.

D,Bain

That’s one take. Another would be Nelson was killed by the French at Trafalgar …..a perennial RN Name.

Each has their Pro’s & Cons when it comes to the Hero in question there’d be others if not currently but in living memory.

Agincourt? Not even a naval battle, nor a name that projects power, prowess.

Jonathan

Achilles heal….wow you have just picked a tiny part of the legend of Achilles..a flaming unstoppable Demi good, the ultimate warrior…Achilles one of the cruisers that fought an 11cm gunned pocket battle ship to a standoff.

Tomartyr

So I take it HMS Mers El Kébir isn’t on the table then?

Tufton Bufton

Touche’

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Tomartyr

Brilliant suggestion!

Can I now ask..

….Are you also campaigning for the cross-channel Eurostar train services between London and Paris to be returned to their natural home?

= the orginal teminus at London’s Waterloo station

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Cant happen.
Its now in an underground tunnel from Dagenham via Stratford to its intended home St Pancras. The depot is near Stratford too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_1#Section_2

Crozza

Achilles is a brilliant name! HMS Achilles a legendary cruiser. Agamemnon, Ajax and Achilles the first three Blue Funnel steamers in 1866! Founding members of an epic Liverpool cargo liner company.

Mark Wilde droiddragon

yes fantastic my grandad was in the royal navy 💙 he was medel of onner i am so proud, and let’s all support our navy men and lady’s coz they are .. .. AMAZING XX droiddragon Mark David wilde ENGLAND 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 🇬🇧

Fat Bloke on Tour

Agincourt doesn’t have a great Navy history.

Part of the 1914 build programme that got cancelled and the name was given to a franken-dreadnought that had a dodgy design history and multiple owners before it was taken over by the RN as a batting packer for the Grand Fleet.

Achilles was always the better choice.
Interesting to find out who was pushing the Agincourt angle.
Sounds like a joker from the Foreign Office at the wind up / madam.

RN not having much luck with names — QE / PoW not very inspiring.
Plus we seem to have more stone frigates than real ships.

Coll

They changed so the Americans have a chance of reading it. Jk. I’ve seen videos struggling with Agamemnon.

Duker

Aga is a stove brand

Jonno

Ajax would certainly clean up.

TheStrugglingEngineer

Achilles? the French ship that exploded in the battle of Trafalgar?! So from victory to utter defeat… keep at it britain, keep digging…

Last edited 10 days ago by TheStrugglingEngineer
Duker

Named after a long line of RN ships named Achilles ( French name is Achille)

  • HMS Achilles (1747) was an 8-gun schooner purchased in 1747. She was captured in 1748 by the Spanish.
  • HMS Achilles (1757) was a 60-gun fourth rate launched in 1757, hulked in 1780 and sold in 1784.
  • HMS Achilles (1863) was a broadside ironclad frigate launched in 1863.
  • HMS Achilles (1905) was a Warrior-class armoured cruiser launched in 1905 and sold in 1921.
  • Achilles II was an armed trawler, hired in 1914 and sunk by a mine on 26 June 1918.
  • HMS Achilles (70) was a Leander-class light cruiser launched in 1932.
  • HMS Achilles (F12) was a Leander-class frigate launched in 1968.

Your claim is factually wrong

Jonathan

achilles is an iconic RN ship name Achilles, Ajax and Exeter…three very famous ships.

Gilly Gilchrist

Oh my. Really! Offend the French. Shocked tbh.

Matthew Jones

Er…the battle of Agincourt was hardly an “innovative use of longbows”. They’d been used for well over a century, most notably at Dupplin Moor, Halidon Hill, Neville’s Cross, Sluys, Crecy, Poitiers and other battles too numerous to mention.

Sara

It probably got renamed because it had a massive fire. The front end construction is being replaced. I believe the navy are suspicious people. That’s why I think it’s being renamed.

Jim

Hello, you must be new here…. Tell us what actually happened because nothing has been said officially, can you share what you actually know please ?

Duker

Sock puppet 5th column.

Paul42

Is there any truth to the notion that King Charles vetoed the name agreed by his mother Queen Elizabeth the second? I would like to think not.

Jonathan

Essentially the monarch has a lot of say and the final veto on any RN ship names.

Matt

Be great to see HMS Bannockburn.

Jonno

At least they haven’t renamed HMS Agamemnon. Admiral Nelson’s favourite Battleship.

Michael

Sounds like we’re pandering to someone. Achilles had a well-known weakness. Agincourt on the other hand was a triumph of bravery against the odds.