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Wilcox

Is this to deter the Americans blowing our infrastructure up, or to prepare the ground for the false flag attribution of a world wide cyber attack in 2024!

rmj

Eh?

Mick

Definitely

Jon

It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one who knows how the world really works though there will be no false flag as there’s a new boss in town

ATH

The tin foil sales in your area are at an all time high I see.

Rick

Exactly

Andy Williams

My thought exactly!

Wilcox

Sean, ATH, and Rick.. so you’re still in the Russia did it; easily led, ill informed, believe in the pandemic, AGW and voted Remain camp! You want to get off the MSM, and wake up

Sean

And like all conspiracy theorists you jump to conclusions without any proof.
Whereas science shows manmade climate change is happening (AGW), the pandemic did clearly happen (a close friend lost his father, a doctor, and a brother to Corvid-19).

And finally just to show how foolish your conclusion jumping is – I campaigned for Brexit as I believe the EU to be flawed and untenable. I find Remoaners more annoying that conspiracy theorists, but at least they usually have rational arguments for their views even if I disagree with them. Whereas conspiracy theorists tend to be low achievers who use paranoia as a defence to avoid self-loathing.

Russia sabotaged Nord Stream and the earth isn’t flat.

Jonathan

As a healthcare professional who worked through the pandemic and who had an uncle who died of covid…please take this as constructive…you have no idea at all what you are talking about and it’s best not to talk BS around a pandemic that killed 5-10 million people world wide…

Mick

On the lookout for US navy ships to prevent a repeat of Biden attack on nord stream 2.

Rick

The tin foil sales in your area are at an all time high I see.

Duker

WASHINGTON — New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months.”

Pro ukrainian means the Military Intelligence directorate or HUR-MO
Germany also believes the same
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html
Washington Post says a bit more
“THE DISCORD LEAKS | The CIA learned last June, via a European spy agency, that a six-person team of Ukrainian special operations forces intended to sabotage the Russia-to-Germany natural gas project’Thats close ally would be Germany and that was the proposed plan at the time before it happened

The European intelligence report was shared on the chat platform Discord, allegedly by Air National Guard member Jack Teixeira. The Washington Post obtained a copy from one of Teixeira’s online friends.”

Wilcox

If you believe the Ukrainians did it, then you’ll believe the Americans put a man on the moon. This was a West job.. Biden and Nuland announced as much.. You’re reading US deflection, especially when it comes from the CIA Backed WP

Reynolds Alumiumn Hatter

Please get your facts right.
The Bilderburgers own the WP, the Illuminati own the NY Times,
the Murdochs are the Aussie Lizard people.
And we all know the Saxe-Coburgs are run by the Templars.

Last edited 2 months ago by Reynolds Alumiumn Hatter
The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Route surveillance is perhaps the one sphere where building a complex hull solution would pay.
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Éowyn

Interesting, looks like the Spruce Goose, but isn’t there what MPA for?

Below was a really useful plane

Pbv-1a_canso_flying_boat_g-pbya_arp_cropped
Reynolds Alumiumn Hatter
ShinMaywa

.

shinmaywa-us-2-amphibious-aircraft1
Jon

That’s flying so low it reminds me of the ekranoplan.

Toby J

That’s what it is
Boeing Pelican, based on the Wing In Ground concept

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

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The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

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The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Not fast enough and too small for deep ocean work….

comment image:large

Jonathan

I want one.

Theoden

A problem with the map. The Czech Republic and Slovenia are NATO members.

Ken

Cannot even copy and paste properly!

Netking

What did you do to attract all the trolls on the site today?

Toby J

Poor NL, you seem to have attracted the cream of the conspiracy theorists with this article
Hopefully you can make sure they can’t come back? They add very little to discussion

Toby J

Except comedy value

D J

Ukraine would love your map.

J MCDONALD

Do any of these vessels have repair capability if any cables or infrastructure are targeted. Seems crazy not to have the ability to repair.

Sean

Repair would be best done by the owners of the infrastructure. They will know what’s required to fix and will bring in specialist vessels to do it.

Last edited 2 months ago by Sean
Deep32

The two obvious countries missing from the JEF nations construct are Germany and Poland, would seal of the Baltic nicely.
With ref to airborne persistence, would have thought that our MQ-9Bs would be prime candidates for this tasking along with any other large drones – Global Hawk etc from other member states.

Supportive Bloke

The commentariat on here is an interesting reflection as to why this is necessary.

There *might* be an unholy alliance of the anti western keen in gently stirring the pot in as many places as possible.

Russia was delighted with the Middle Eastern mess and would love as many other messes as possible to draw attention away for its big Ukrainian mess.

The problem is that the threat of another mess means resources to screw the lid on that one. And this is where the slim resources problem is. Not enough frigates. So if we gave 2 x precious T23 tied up doing this they are not doing another tasking.

Sean

One of the benefits of the mess in the Middle East is that the IDF can draw on US munitions held in Israel. Previously these stockpiles were being drawn down to support Ukraine. Even if Russia didn’t nudge Iran to get Hammas to launch the attack, Russia has benefitted.

Likewise Maduro is, like any dictator, is looking to deflect domestic discontent by appealing to crude nationalism and may make a land-grab for most of Guyana. If so, this could only benefit Russia further if sanctions are placed in Venezuela or if Guyana is supported with weapons.

Feels like we could see a lot of unrelated fires breaking out globally…

Supportive Bloke

Sadly I tend to agree on the ‘unrelated’ fires fuel by ‘gifts’ from China who are testing the West’s resolve for their own ends.

My concern is that they may try the Taiwan grab shortly.

I would be unsurprised if Chinese ‘fishing’ vessels turn up down South and ram the RN guard boat……accidently like….

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

China still hasn’t the depth to dominate the Straits and achieve Sea Control. The US only has to achieve Sea Denial and they have enough to do that. And now they are working on their short comings like reducing their AShM deficit, building more F35, newer BVR AA missiles coming on line and the USAF proving JDAM against moving targets the longer the Chinese leave it the more secure Taiwan becomes. The USN carriers would operate to the east of the island. F35 could be sniping at PLAAF and PLAN aircraft whilst they were still feet dry over the Chinese mainland. Giving every adult Taiwanese an AR would help too…………

I never know how to read Taiwan.

Duker

My Taiwanese neighbours dont think much of the US sabre rattling and the Taiwan defence budget as a portion of GDP is way below little Singapore. So I think the Taiwan government wants to continue the way it is- which is thats theres is only one China, and let westerners tie themselves in knots over that

Jon

If Taiwan spends too much on defence, China will attack before the balance starts to move in Taiwan’s favour. If it doesn’t spend enough, China might consider it ripe for the plucking. It’s a fine line to tread.

Both sides nominally agree there is only one China. They only dispute which is the legitimate government. The reality remains unspoken.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

I think they want to continue on as they are. And the US is driving the situation.

What drives PRC is more Taiwan’s position than anything cultural.

Harkens

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67282107

The US is quietly arming Taiwan to the teeth

Duker

They would do that wouldnt they… guess where the weapons come from
BTW its Singapore not Taiwan thats armed to the teeth and they are more like Ireland in their location- away from trouble
Singapore was well over 3% of GDP – before it became a tax haven so its current GDP is inflated by multinationals book keeping that isnt ‘real’ for their economy. A major streaming service I use really is based in US but my credit card shows a Singapore entity while the servers are different again. Same with Uber. But of course much larger businesses route internationally traded resources worth colossal sums via Singapore marketing entities

Jonathan

The PLAN is now larger that the USN..it’s got around 100 large surface combatants, 100+ smaller surface combatants ( 1000-3000 tons..it’s throwing out 8 new large surface combatants a year..it has around 70 electric boats…30 of those are ocean going and as good as anything anywhere…the USN will not manage PLAN it will be invited into a mutual blood bath that china thinks it can recover from quicker…the only thing the USN now outguns china on are carriers…..which china does not need as many off as it will be fighting on its front door for the first bloodbath campaign….after the first campaign china is planing to follow follow with a world war that will drive every economy into the group …..for which china has been preparing and Harding its economy and the west has not…it thinks it can win and a fair few serious minds now think they can as well..read Babbage..it’s an eye opener.

The west is heading for the biggest kick in the head since WW2 and if it’s lucky it wins a 2-4 year long war that’s shatters it’s economies and kills millions of people…if it’s unlucky it’s will to fight will collapse and it will need to seek terms ( china thinks the west will collapse its thinks it’s populations will not take the pain and it’s politicians will capitulate when faced with something like WW2j.

Nishiouji

Really? But you never believe that any Hypersonic missiles will work or anti-ship ballistic missiles will hit anything except slow-moving buildings? So why worry so much about Taiwan?

Jonathan

Agree, although the evidence is china is looking at a 3-4 year ish timeframe for Taiwan…that’s the point it will be at the high point of its power…it will have 30 odd more large surface combatants commissioned and have a few more navel bases ready ( gulf and both sides of the Atlantic)…it’s also got a tad more hardening of its industrial supply lines and economic hardening.

Joshua Cole

Maduro land grab? Just sent some JEF ships down there, that will fix it, and don’t say I have not told you.

Sean

The JEF is for the high north and Baltic. If you check a map you’ll find Guayana is in South America.
You couldn’t be more inaccurate if you tried.

Duker

You mean this 1896 Map but no longer Britains problem

800px-Boundary_lines_of_British_Guiana_18961
Deep32

Not entirely sure why we need 2 × T23, the Russian SM threat in the Baltic is small (1-2 kilos). Anything coming g in from the North/Norwegian Sea comes in on the surface. As the threat escalates, so too can the response.
By far the most useful vessels are the minesweeper, for investigating seabed anomalies.
This is basically constabulary work at the moment, we need lots of OPVs patrolling, backed up by persistent air coverage to help with the RMP. Like I said, large drones would help immensely.

Supportive Bloke

An interesting take.

I agree that vessels that can look downwards would be more than helpful. Which is why I’m a bit surprised the Rivers are there….we have previous few minehunters left?

The fact the T23s are there tends to suggest that SSN’s are present?

Deep32

Not sure of the Kilos Rov capabilities, believe that most of the activities in this area are believed to have been conducted by Russian shipping of varying types.

This is realistically requires specialist sonar equipment, surveying work. HMS Scott/Enterprise and RFA Proteus are obviously the vessels of choice for the UK, if ever available.

Jon

Might have been a good job for the Echo class.

Supportive Bloke

I totally agree.

The Echos would have been far-more use than the OPV’s – they had proper sonar fits.

Jon

I think Poland would fit better into JEF than Germany, although I admit my view has been more than a little biased through a post-Cold War historical lens. If Germany has shed the remnants of ostpolitik and is willing to move quickly (and it’s the latter that I query possibly even more than the former), fair enough. JEF exercises for rapid deployment.

It feels like Germany wants to spend time in considering its options. Nothing wrong with that; wars aren’t won by the first echelon, and equally you can’t have a second echelon if you don’t have a first. There’s room for both.

Deep32

I think that Germany may well still have a ostpolitik hangover. However, they are involved in other areas, such as the ESS initiative where they are a major player.
Would be nice to get all the ducks in a row, but perhaps like many others finances are limiting involvement across the board?

Duker

the attack on the Baltic Connector pipeline in October 2023″

This is silly Daily Mail nonsense.

https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/25/finland-blames-chinese-ship-for-baltic-sea-gas-pipeline-damage

Finnish police say they have data pointing to the Hong Kong-flagged cargo vessel NewNew Polar Bear as the culprit in damaging the pipeline running under the Baltic Sea.

Finnish investigators say they believed an anchor of a Chinese container ship was dislodged and caused the damage to the undersea BalticConnector gas pipeline between Finland and Estonia on the Baltic Sea earlier this month.

The National Bureau of Investigation, a branch of the Finnish police, said that it has evidence and data pointing to the Hong Kong-flagged cargo vessel NewNew Polar Bear as the culprit in damaging the pipeline running across the Gulf of Finland.

Detective Superintendent Risto Lohi, NBI’s head of the investigation, said in a news conference Tuesday that a 1.5 to 4-meter-wide dragging trail on the seabed is seen to lead to the point of damage in the gas pipeline.

Maybe this information form 25 Oct hasnt sunk in yet ?

Sonik

A vessel that works the northern sea route, and therefore highly likely has a Russian crew…

Duker

They are various flags, unlikely a Chinese flagged ship doesn’t have Chinese crew. Anyway a pipeline is a small item that is only aprrox located on marine charts with a fairly wide restricted zone, that the anchor broke exactly the right spot is absurd. Why didn’t they just blow it up like the Ukrainians did on nordstream

Wilcox

Ukrainians, hey?!

Sean

Next you’ll be blaming them for the Great Fire of London…

Duker

The evidence of US and Germany points to that direction and made public by major sources. Even that dude in the Air National Guard intelligence node released the raw material predicting the Ukrainians would attempt it. As for me I have no idea but usually reliable media with contacts in intell do ( plus the unauthorised leak)

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Ostpolitik is certainly dead with the German political class.

But elsewhere in German society is a different matter.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Either way, you have to ask why are the JEF nations so concerned that this task force has been constituted now.

NATO has an advantage in surface seapower. There is a narrative to maintain. And so establishing a task group is something they can be seen to be doing. Plus it is Europe seen to be exercising agency.

It is the seaborne equivalent (with much much less evidence) of sending a QRA flight out to ‘intercept’ Russian MPA.

Whoever blew those pipes committed an act of war.

Vasili

Either way, you have to ask why are the JEF nations so concerned that this task force has been constituted now.

There is no JEF task force, all 7 ships are from the UK.
And they are not doing anything specific patrolling on behalf of JEF except when they happen to be around the area.
JEF is all just willy-waving

Last edited 2 months ago by Vasili
Jon

All 7 of the 20 ships.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

I didn’t say that. Note the italics.

Jonathan

This is china testing the west…you don’t accidentally drag the bottom of the occean with your anchor..and every civilian bit of Chinese infrastructure and capability is part of the CCP.

Gareth

Since the destruction of the NordStream pipeline in September 2022 and the attack on the Baltic Connector pipeline in October 2023, there has been increasing concern about underwater Russian activity.

Granted Russia is the one everyone is concerned about for obvious reasons but I thought Ukraine admitted it was their own intelligence services who destroyed NordStream 2?

Last edited 2 months ago by Gareth
The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

They are not capable of doing it. And why would they risk upsetting Germany?

Whoever did it committed an act of war.

Sean

No they didn’t.

Julian Edmonds

It was Operation Cold Turkey. Cutting off supplies of the drug and making us eat uncooked Christmas dinner for our own good.

Duker

Didnt cut off supplies . The predominant piped gas supply is the overland routes through Belarus and yes Ukraine ( who get paid and use the gas too)
However LNG from northern Russian terminals still arrives – but is much more expensive and has to have ‘different pronouns’ to disguise it origin

Jean

What is the point of JEF now that Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, except for another talking shop for the UK?
An extra group operating within the geopolitical area of NATO rivaling for attention by the UK.
NATO already has NRF, the big countries within NATO are not interested in JEF, the USA, Germany, France Poland, Spain, and Italy.
Is JEF going to counter Russia all by themselves without NATO? Deploy to the Balkans, Falklands islands, and Somalia? What will it do when the chips are down?

Last edited 2 months ago by Jean
Sean

The JEF is a NATO initiative, announced at the NATO 2014 summit in Wales. It’s part of the “Framework Nations Concept (FNC)” where Germany, the UK and Italy act as framework nations for groups of Allies coming together to work multi-nationally for the joint development of forces and capabilities required by NATO.

The U.K. led FNC is called “JEF”.

Jon

JEF is geographically aimed at the Baltic and the High North, so no, it won’t deploy to the Balkans or Somalia. Will it counter Russia all by itself? Possibly, but not for long. It’s about rapid deployments. Given that the article is about a short notice twenty-ship JEF deployment, I find it odd that you ask whether it’s another talking shop. Clearly not.

Jean

The JEF concept was first conceived in 2012 and announced by the then Chief of the Defence StaffGeneral Sir David Richards. The JEF arose from the Joint Rapid Reaction Force (JRRF) which disappeared as a result of the UK’s focus on operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.
What is the added value to NATO?

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/chief-of-the-defence-staff-general-sir-david-richards-speech-to-the-royal-united-services-institute-rusi-17-december-2012

Sean

And was then internationalised and folded into the NATO FNC structure.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/indispensable-natos-framework-nations-concept-beyond-madrid

Presumably you no-longer think JEF is a “pointless talking shop”.

Eetu

What has it achieved since? Did it stop any gas lines or internet cables from being damaged?

Sean

As with terrorism, the terrorists only have to succeed once, whereas the good guys have to succeed every time.
It’s easy enough to knock the police if a house is burgled, but not credit them for all the burglaries they’ve either deterred or prevented.
No internet cables have been sabotaged, you can’t expect them to prevent accidental damage. As for Nordstream, well the Russians blew up their own pipe-line.

Duker

That is a made up claim about Nord*stream. There is very credible evidence from multiple sources of high reliability published that Ukrai*nes security forces were involved.
For me the clincher was the stuff released by the US Air National Guardsman who gave out ‘raw info’ from the US intell system that Ukrai*ne was planning something like this ( this was unknown at the time of the blasts). The germans had confirmed this after the events by following the breadcrumbs as the sabot*eurs operated from their Baltic coast.

Sean

And plenty of credible evidence that the Russians did it, including the big insurance claim they lodged for it.

Duker

Some links please. …’Plenty’ must mean exactly that beyond Red Tab stories

Matt

Is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted,
Like BoJo saying about Corona, sorry but suck it up.

Last edited 2 months ago by Matt
Sean

What stable door? Is any of our critical undersea infrastructure down? The answer is “no”.

Marek

So what are those ships out there for when they cannot do anything to prevent accidents and stop the Russians?

Sean

That’s like saying traffic cops are pointless because they don’t stop accidents and ignoring the dangerous and reckless drivers they stop. You clearly don’t understand the concept of “prevention”.

Jon

Stuff needs to be done. What do you care if it’s done with a NATO hat or a JEF hat, especially given JEF is NATO (re)created? I think you are asking why this is under JEF and not NATO, right? Two reasons: first these NATO frameworks are open to non-NATO countries. We all know Sweden will be NATO, but it actually isn’t yet. Second, working with 10 countries is easier than working with 30.

Clegg

Is more pointless bureaucracy led by the UK, the Empire has long ended,
Let’s create more groups for Southern Europe, the Balkans, and the Caucasus.

Sean

If you try reading the previous comments about the purpose of JEF first then you might avoid writing such obviously ignorant posts.
Just a thought…

Vallad

It is still a pointless bureaucratic talk shop with only UK ships,

D J

So who does the other 13 ships belong to?

Sean

Given its not only U.K. ships, 7 of the 20 ships are from the U.K., it shows your opinion is based on a failure to grasp the basic facts.

Phillip Johnson

Another task, pretty much the same old resources.
2 Frigates, 2 MCMV, 2 OPV, 1 LSL.
Question, if this is to be sustained what portion of the deployable RN does this represent?

Greta Thunderpants

On Paper about 9% but in reality probably 20% at current deployable figures.

Last edited 2 months ago by Greta Thunderpants
The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

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Last edited 2 months ago by The Whale Island Zoo Keeper