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Leah

How can you have a NAAFI on a submarine?

Andy

You usually have a canteen run by volunteers who take a small profit, not a proper NAAFI.

Mac

Wouldn’t surprise me, at all.

Those three chinless wonders, David Cameron, George Osborne & Nick Clegg should be dragged upto Faslane and made to apologise to all the boat crews because it was their decision to put off renewing Trident for 5yrs when in power, that lies at the heart of the current problems facing the Vanguard boats and wider submarine fleet.

Graeme Mckay

I watched the TV series about HMS Ark Royal. Cameron had a tour of the ship and gave a speach about the excellent crew and fantastic boat and how crucial her role was for the Royal Navy. A few weeks later he announced she was on her final tour and going to scrapped. Politicians would happily face people and apologise if they knew it would win votes. The apology wouldn’t mean a thing to them as its empty words from corrupt lieing snake politicians.

Jon

I remember John Nott gave a speech when Ark Royal was launched confirming the ship would be fitted out on Tyneside, only to announce in the House of Commons it was going to be mothballed instead. Later it turned out he had still been lying and was in talks to sell it to the Australians.

Supportive Bloke

Indeed.

The Camoron, Clegg & Osbourne trio cause havoc to RN budgets and capability with the T26 and SSN/BN decisions they took.

It has cost the country billions to sort the mess out. All to save tiny amounts of money in year.

Peter S

Not true. Long lead items for a successor SSBN were approved in 2011. A full review in 2013 considered, superficially, alternatives but it was clear the decision to renew Trident based deterrence had been made. In the aftermath of the banking crisis, the coalition made some seriously poor decisions on defence. Trident wasn’t one of them, unless you think SSBN based deterrence isn’t the best option for the UK.

Supportive Bloke

An active decision was made to push the project to the right and to slow it just as with QEC and T26.

All three decisions have cost RN billions out of its budgets as maintenance has sky rocketed and serviceability has plummeted.

It is a big reason for the hollowing out of RN as an increasing % of the budget is just spent keeping old ships & subs usable.

Grant

The Labour Government had doubled the amount the state was spending and it was – and remains – unaffordable. The supposed Austerity only really impact a few areas, Defence and local government being the big two (as NHS and pension spending continued to grow)

SDSR was incredibly short sighted but at the time it was only those with of us who care about such things who were dismayed with it…. The insane cuts got far less pres coverage than (for example) the Benefit cap.

Last edited 19 days ago by Grant
Nobby

What world do you live in ?? Of course they resupply. Think about it !!!!.

Peter S

What are you trying to say? I never mentioned resupply.

Duker

The facts dont support your ‘claim’
https://basicint.org/news/2010/prime-minister-confirms-trident-decision-delayed-until-around-2016

Prime Minister David Cameron confirmed before Parliament today that based upon a completed “value for money review” of the United Kingdom’s deterrent, “the decision to start construction of the new submarines need not now be taken until around 2016.”

2011 you are talking about was the Intial Gate decision and before then £1 billion had been spent. NOW THATS LONG LEAD

https://basicint.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/briefing_3_-_initial_gate.pdf

Peter S

I think the facts do support my claim. In 2010, in the aftermath of the financial crisis and the enormous black hole in the defence equipment budget, it was inevitable that any government would have to work hard to justify the enormous projected cost of the successor class. The review of alternatives was published in 2013 concluding that not only was successor SSBN the most effective solution but possibly even the most affordable. By the time main gate decision was made after a parliamentary vote, over 15% of the projected cost had been spent with some long lead items ordered as early as 2011. Remember also that Barrow was still struggling with the Astute programme with boats taking 10 or more years from laying down to commissioning and delivered years later than planned. Delaying main gate from the planned 2014 to 2016 made little difference to the successor programme.
As I said, the coalition govt made some very poor decisions on conventional defence capabilities which are only now now being partly rectified.
The only way to avoid the difficulties BAE have faced in regenerating Barrows workforce and skills is to commit to a programme of continuous build. If Dreadnought is expected to operate for 35 years and build times are 8/9+years, construction on a replacement for boat 1 needs to start as soon as boat 4 is commissioned. Sticking to a largely unchanged design would make this much easier.

Duker

The parliamentary vote was made earlier
“On March 14, 2007 Parliament voted to authorise the initial ‘Concept’ phase of the Trident replacement system”

“In 2006 Prime Minister Tony Blair stated explicitly that the Trident replacement programme would “not be at the expense of the conventional capabilities that our armed forces need”.

this was reversed by Osborne
“Following the announcement in July 2010 by Chancellor George Osborne that the MoD will have to fund the capital costs of replacing Trident from its own core budget, it is clear that choices will have to be made: other defence projects will have to be cut to pay for Trident”

By doing this Cameron-Osborne-Clegg could mask the deep defence spending cuts

Its an old Whitehall trick just like the 2016 Commons vote on Trident replacement – it had been underway since the 2007 vote

Indeed nearly £5 bill had been spent- a lot of that for RR
The Concept Phase of the programme had an allocated spend of £905 million, while the Assessment Phase, to 2016, now has an allocated budget of £3.9 billion.”
The 5 year delay was absurd as the Trident build was inevitable after 2007 and the billions spent.
made for some theatre too. Just as the delay for T23 replacement after 2010.
The chickens have come home to roost in a massively expensive way for those ‘money saving’ years from 2010-2016

Peter S

You are overlooking the problems the Astute programme was still suffering as BAE was trying to regain lost skills and workforce. Blair and later Brown as PM were still considering a reduction to 3 boats. They had already reduced missile and warhead numbers. Against this background, the coalition later Conservative governments committed to the 4 boat successor programme.
Given that a substantial extension to the planned service life of Vanguards was technically feasible, and in line with USN life extension of its Ohio SSBNs, the delay in main gate decision has had little impact.
Delaying replacement frigates, partly to fund the budget overruns of the carrier programme, has had serious negative effects, which won’t be remedied until around 2030.

Duker

The Trident commitment was made in a vote in the Commons in 2007

The 2016 vote was just performance theatre to cover up the delay after 2010- when the Lib Dems blocked progress and Osborne starved it of money.
The same tactic of ‘looking for cheaper options’ [LOL] that was used to delay the T26 frigate program

Duker

Cameron commons speech as PM in 2010
…reduce the number of operational launch tubes on those new submarines from 12 to eight…
…reduce the number of warheads on our submarine at sea from 48 to 40…..
…and reduce our stockpile of operational warheads from less than 160 to fewer than 120.

Why do you say it was Blair?

Hugo

They’re building dreadnoughts simultaneously, so they’d be building replacements far too early.
Plus the Aukus class will be built after the dreadnoughts.

Leah

Mr JC as well.I think you would know who.

TRS

The crews on these patrols should all.get some sort of commendation, they went above and beyond.

Andrew Deacon

Surely below and beyond?

Muntjack

below and beneath

Back Aftie Fran

As a former submariner with many SSBN patrols under my belt during the 80s. Your talking about a different breed of people, they arnt North Korean cannon fodder they are all, in the main, well strung & highly professional. Willing to go the extra mile as unappreciated guardians of our safety. Gentlemen( and possibly ladies now) BZ, I doff my cap to you all for a job well done ….185days is epic

Ps not a NAAFI but a tuck shop

Whale Island Zookeeper

Though not NAAFI operated I would say canteen was a better choice of word.

Think of it this way. In the Andrew you don’t buy tuck you buy nutty and goffers.

Leah

What do they sell? The usual toiltries and sweets?

Ste

Eat very well, Good quality food, a good menu….. where they getting this kind of crap from 😆

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

All

The key point here is that, right from the very earliest development of the first-ever atomic (now nuclear) powered submarines by the USN back in the mid 1950’s – so over a decade before the RN had its first boat Dreadnought out at sea – it had always been recognised by the very highest echelonns of the USN that the potential endurance limits of the biological crew would always be single biggest constraint on the overall underwater endurance of any nuclear powered boat going out on patrol.

i.e atomic patrols were limited in duration to what the crew could “reasonably” take.

So – in addition to the food, fresh air and bogroll mentioned here – one should not forget rest and recreation.

So:

  • during WW2, some (not all) German U-boat skippers used to award their crew members “an occasional day off” during a very long war patrol
  • all the earliest US nuclear boats were painted a shade of light green inside; a colour scientifically choosen to relax the crew during those first long “atomic” patrols
  • Other countries did it rather differently for their Boomer/Bomber boats.
  • So please see this rather interesting Youtube documentary about the design used by the old Soviet (i.e. Russian Empire) enemy force:
  • Youtube 14 mins in: Russian crews relaxing in a sauna!

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=soviet+submarine+jacuuzui&qpvt=soviet+submarine+jacuuzui&mid=FA336FF0FB0FF7E5F5E5FA336FF0FB0FF7E5F5E5&&FORM=VRDGAR

There was at least one highly-classified NATO intelligence report produced in the 1980’s about the USSR’s Typhoon class – easily the biggest undesea boats ever built – which emphasised the boat’s huge size by pointing out that it had a jaccuzzi pool on board.

There is plenty of civilian research to show that all of the worlds most-serious major industrial accidents have had – as their root cause – “human factiors” : usually fatigue caused by sleep deprivation (Note 1).

With the rota system used on RN submarine patrols = sleep deprivation is inevitable

—————

As for surfacing an RN nuclear-powered boat during a long patrol, it is very very rare

However, it has been done before.

Down on the English south coast in Dorset, at lovely Lulworth, there has always been a big Army gunnery range.

Back in the good old days – those long-forgotten rose-coloured sunny days when the UK used to have both big tanks and also big artillary guns in our armed forces – those ranges were reguarly being used by both the Royal Artillary gunners and the big tank gunners (at Bovington)

If one looks very carefully at the older (pre 2010) publically available Admirlalty produced navigation charts, in the very middle of the sea area to be closed off to yachts during the Army’s gunnery practice is an single, very isolated, big mooring bouy.

This was called, on all official Admiralty charts, the “atomic bouy” for a good reason.

Tthe “very occasional” standard operating procedure during the first Cold War was to:

  1. close the gunnery ranges off to the public – both landside and well out to sea,
  2. At night, surface the nuclear submarine (i.e. in the middle of the ranges) and moor up to the bouy (in blissful darkness)
  3. Then – having just driven over to Lulworth from the nearby Atomic Energy Authority plant at Winfirth (just inland) – the atomic boffins used to drive out to the moored-up sub in small boat.
  4. Then, after having given it a “quick MOT”, the boffins would head back to the local pub – and try to catch last orders
  5. The sub would submerge: driving quickly off out into La Manche,
  6. Then, just for public show, the army used to let off a few of its biggest firecrackers.
  7. The gunnery ranges were then reopened to the general public.
  8. and Mr and Mrs general public hiking the coastal path would be none the wiser – they assumed that the very scenic spot of Lulworth Cove had just been closed off for “a quick bit of very routine Army gunnery practice”

The leaders of our current RN submarine force need to relearn some of the “old tricks” – those ones that were routinuely being used during the first Cold War

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS Do we not have few big MOD owned ranges off the north-west coast of Scotland?

Note 1.

  • and before anybody replies to me here on NL – to claim that servicemen are all fully trained up to be completely immune to the effects of sleep deprivation and thus fatigue – please think twice before pressing the keys on your qwerty keyboard
  • I refer you to the offical investigation into the crash of the Dambuster’s F35.
  • when £80M quid of very-Gucci RAF / RN kit joined the goldfish club.
  • it crashed at the end of an exceptionally long CSG deployment.
  • And crew fatigue was highlighted as being THE key reason: i.e. it crashed due to a “sleepy git” failing to take out the red gear from inside the engine’s vital air intake!
  • The fact that the RN and RAF had settled into a very long and tiring routinue on that CSG deployment – weeks on duty without any rest – directly led to that crash
  • they had also routinuely got innto several bad habits , so were reguarly using “poor standard operating parctices” :which also significantly contributed (i.e the F35’s take off run was too short to allow the pilot an abort due to a lack of power)
Barry from Barrow.

As a Prepper, I can completely understand from whence you is coming from like bro init…. Said Bog Roll is the big issue not to mention where to store it… Having sufficient stocks of Super Noodles is one thing but having adequate stocks of Andrex is another. Vindaloo curries just adds to the problems. What does make me wonder though is just how the US’s Sinky things can last as long given A, their love for 50 oz cow steaks and B , their love for more 50 oz steaks….

Duker

Compressed toilet paper ‘tablets’

simon

hate to say it there are paper alternatives, for god and country

Jon

If bog roll is that big a deal, maybe they should go foreign and wash their arses instead. I can’t say I’ve used one myself, but if they have “endless” power and water, a combi loo/bidet/dryer seems a logical choice. Dyson redesigned the hand dryer; perhaps they could be persuaded to create a superfast drier for the nethers too.

Last edited 18 days ago by Jon
Barry from Barrow.

Interesting Idea but, Hair Drying ones anus after a dump would only lead to a rather crusty mess ?

Duker

Dates a bit out . Dreadnought S101 was commissioned in Apr 63.

While Nautilus SSN 571 didnt get underway on nuclear power till May 1955, S101 sea trials had been since Dec 1962
So 7 years between the two programs on a comparable basis

Mark

Can’t testify as to the fatigue level, But i did skim through that report myself, And they also mentioned the red gear in question was dislodged by windy conditions and pushed deep into the intake where it was difficult to see during checks and impossible for the pilot to spot during their check without a ladder and actually climbing in the intake. Also mentioned was the conditions during which maintenance was performed, Ie at night under red lighting ( For preserving night vision ) but naturally trying to spot red colour objects in red lighting is an issue, Also a failure to count sets of red gear in and out, so there was no way of knowing some was unaccounted for, Although to be fair they did note that the design of the red gear could he improved as its not a rare event for them to vanish overboard in strong winds and the one fastening to prevent this occurring is awkward and risks damage to the stealth coating when fastening & unfastening.

Barry from Barrow.

The Freezer mostly.

Andrew Deacon

I’ve long been sceptical about the C in CASD, especially with the longer patrols, and reckon it’s just PR spin. Surely there must be crew with health needs to land, or those with problems ashore to pull and send replacements. Then there’s the issue of women’s health and hopefully unlikely a pregnancy.
Wonder what kind of ship thy can find to do the job? Guess T23 with couple of RIBs and a Wildcat would have to manage?

Whale Island Zookeeper

No it has been C since Polaris. And if there had been need for C to be broken nobody here could say.

Women access health services 50% more than men. Measures are taken to ensure certain situations do not arise. Though if C had to be broken for a female’s health it is a small price to pay for diversity and inclusivity and their unique perspective to the job plus their work ethic which means they are worth 10 male ratings easily. Then there is the moral of the command team to consider too.

ATH

There are stories that in the later stages of Polaris some “patrols” were done either in port or in a sea loch very close to home port. Not sure just how much there is to these stories.

Andrew Deacon

That does make sense as R boats reached end of life and Cold War had more or less ended. V boats may have to do that if Dreadnoughts delayed. Boats can still be where needed inside a day. Other issue RN now has is manpower, which I presume a patrol would then need fewer crew than a full on one at sea?

Barry from Barrow.

“Which means they are worth 10 male ratings easily” Interesting statement, I’d like to see the data on this. Maybe current recruitment criteria should be revised to focus more on females than males.

Andrew Deacon

I seem to recall RAF recruitment didn’t go well when it was targetted!

Barry from Barrow.

Maybe they should have offered 10 x’s the salary ! Seriously though, I’ve been rather outspoken about the Inequality and unfair way women were treated in the workplace, got in a fair bit of bother with bosses when I dared to question why men got paid more than women for doing the same job, that was over 40 years ago.

Sean

It’s the Zoophiliacs attempt at sarcasm. He’s previously openly admitted to his misogyny.

As for women “accessing health services more than men”, well it’s well established that one of the reasons why women live longer than men is that men are notoriously bad at seeking medical attention. If men were as proactive as women we’d be a lot healthier.

Barry from Barrow.

Oh… Misogyny has no place on a public forum, I’m surprised it was not moderated. Most places I visit would have strict rules about that sort of thing and action would be taken to remove such comments and the author. Personally I missed the sarcasm though.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I am actually echoing what six decades of feminist propaganda has been telling us. They are not my words.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Hello Simple Sean you think twerp. Still see yourself as self-appointed monitor of the forum eh? You are like the site’s Steven Bray aren’t you? An utter pr!ck but because you are good to laugh at other’s put with you.

I would like to see where I openly admitted to misogyny. I bet you have it ready in a file somewhere ready to cut and paste?

Barry from Barrow.

Sorry I just read what you typed and what Sean replied with, didn’t realise there was history between you. Are there any site rules here or can insults be dished out without moderation ? I get a bit tired seeing insults and abuse on these sorts of places. Personally I just came here to join in after finding this place on FB.(which seems to have a few silly members all of it’s own).

Iain Sanders

What rank crap.

simon

navy recruitment hopefully understands more about crew compatibility when living in confined space. there will lots of data from space research for instance, it may just get down to, being easy to get along with a sunny outlook. the european mars project: The final eight candidates are all male, aged between 28 and 39, and come from Denmark, Sweden, Germany (2), France (3) and Belgium.

Whale Island Zookeeper

There were very good reasons why the Submarine Service were unhappy about female personnel going to boats. They had seen what had been going on the in surface fleet for 20 years and didn’t want the same. And look what happened they got the same.

I don’t know one female rating who hasn’t got a story of where she used her ‘feminity’ to get around the system or some senior. And I don’t know one male rating who hasn’t got a story of where he has come off worse in a situation due to a female rating using her ‘feminity’ to get around the system or senior.

The thing is here most trot out PC platitudes. When some comes along with real world facts they find it difficult to process so lash out.

Barry from Barrow.

Having read your post and seeing how weighted it seems to be against women, I can only imagine that the problem is with the male mindset and the whole Idea of equality in the workplace, wherever it might be. Can you give some examples of actual instances that you claim so confidently on here please ? I have 3 female friends who are currently serving ( one MP, one on QE and one on T23) they all say that Misogyny is still a thing but I can tell you now that they all have bigger balls than those dinosaurs.

Whale Island Zookeeper
Barry from Barrow.

I’m not entirely convinced the the “Sun” is any better or worse than any other paper to be honest. “Believe only half of what you see and nothing what you see” Edgar Poe.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Barry

This one was in the left-wing rag the Daily Mirror only last year:

Latest Loch Ness Monster sighting ‘clearest yet’ after first photo 90 years ago – Mirror Online

You can therfore either believe

  • that “Nessie” exists
  • or that a Vanguard was detected and compromised whilst out on its CASD patrol

regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Barry from Barrow.

I neither believe that Nessie exists (anymore) or that a Vanguard was detected and compromised whilst out on patrol …. I do believe that the Daily Mirror Crossword is far inferior to the Mails though.

Iain Sanders

H’mm, perhaps astronauts for Mars should be recruited from submariners.. Alert Elon!

Barry from Barrow.

If you take a look at MSN (joke news site) this same report is in the Telegraph and Independent, so not just the Sun.

Daniel

The article mentions not dumping gash at sea for security reasons which makes sense, but does that extend to sewage and grey water? If not and that kind of thing is able to be jetisonned, would some sort of bidet be a stupid suggestion for overcoming or at least mitigating the toilet paper storage issue?

Barry from Barrow.

Interesting question. In the film “The Bedford Incident” (Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier) (brilliant film btw) Trash/Waste was a key to finding the likely location of the Submarine by analysing samples taken from the water. This was way back in the 1960’s, you would think we and they have learned since that was a known thing all those years ago.

Duker

They ‘can’ the waste then eject it in USN

“Dry waste is consolidated using a trash compactor and then placed in special cans. These cans are fabricated on board from prepunched galvanized, perforated steel sheets, using a roller tool. The resulting cans are 28.5 inches long and 9 inches in diameter. They have metal tops and bottom caps. Metal weights are added to ensure that the cans will go to the bottom. The cans are ejected from the submarine using a trash disposal unit (TDU), which is a long cylindrical, vertical tube connected to the ocean through a ball valve. Several cans are placed atop one another in the TDU, the top of the TDU is sealed by closing a pressure cap, the ball valve is opened, and the cans ejected through a combination of gravity and air pressure.
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 1996. Shipboard Pollution Control: U.S. Navy Compliance with MARPOL Annex V. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. https://doi.org/10.17226/9190.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/9190/chapter/10

JesusHChrist

This sort of buggering about must drive the families nuts. What long term effects will this have on the submariners children. Being a military brat (I was one) has very comment effects on kids that last the rest of their lives. In turn it will effect the grandchildren of submariners. This area of psychology is very well documented. It’s news to nobody. But the politicians obviously don’t care about the damage they leave in their wake.

Barry from Barrow.

For long periods of time only one or two Boats are actually deployed (look at SSN activity this year). I would guess that wanting to be a Submariner is a conscious decision made knowing the likelihood you would be away at sea for long periods. I can’t see why you blame Politicians for your fathers career choice.

Andrew Deacon

SSN is only usually under for a few weeks and can make port visits. That means crew get family contact and head home if need be..

Barry from Barrow.

Not always the case, especially in hotter times (FI’s) It’s part of the job people sign up for.

Andrew Deacon

I’d be interested to see how those on the 6 month patrols have since fared – whether they’re still on subs or even still in RN.The 1st 6 month patrol probably relates to the fire on HMS Victorious, so I don’t know what food supplies were like when the duty sub found out but crew were certainly not prepared. Subsequent trips they would have taken the extra supplies and warned crew. It’ll probably turn out the sub went in to US port for resupply and whole new crew!

Last edited 18 days ago by Andrew Deacon
stephen ball

If this is a one off, it is ok.

If a war started today, and a sub can’t be resupplied for which ever reason. The RN can use this as an exercise. Crew morale, food stock on the sub.

Just think if a Carrington event happened, Now if a Sub was coming in to port, you might have to tell the sub extend time a sea for like another 2 weeks or so. So food and morale is still the issue.

Bloke down the pub

Most of the Trident tubes are empty so they could be used. Is there an existing SO stores module that could be adapted?

Barry from Barrow.

Ha ha. That’s probably true but we are not really knowing just how many tubes are full/empty really. Just like the true number of warheads we might actually have, interestingly the new, slightly heavier Dreadnoughts have 4 less VLS and less crew by all accounts, maybe the stores are bigger for longer patrols maybe SO is a priority ? Who knows.

Duker

Its public information that some are empty , both for nuclear weapons limitation treatys and cost saving reasons. All publicly notified

Yes You can find the information, so use your keyboard to find out

Barry from Barrow.

Did I not actually say that then ? “Some” is no different than not knowing how many exactly.

Thanks for the terse reply, I would never have thought about using my keyboard.

Duker

Public information from the PM Cameron– who knew ?

“The Prime Minister also highlighted other changes in the nuclear posture:

“…extend the life of the Vanguard class so that the first replacement submarine is not required until 2028;

reduce the number of operational launch tubes on those new submarines from 12 to eight…

…reduce the number of warheads on our submarine at sea from 48 to 40…..

…and reduce our stockpile of operational warheads from less than 160 to fewer than 120.

The next phase of the programme to renew our deterrent will start by the end of this year.”

https://basicint.org/news/2010/prime-minister-confirms-trident-decision-delayed-until-around-2016

Jonno

To resupply I would think the middle of the Indian Ocean in a balmy coconut palm fringed lagoon would be the perfect place. In fact a place like Chagos Archipelago. Oh silly me that wont be happening now unless they go into the base at Diego Garcia itself. Thickos Starmer and Lammy have scuppered that right?

Barry from Barrow.

Yup. Glad to say i did not even consider voting for these clowns, What a ridiculous decision to make, it opens up the flood doors to giving everywhere else up ( Green Light to Argentina, Spain and the commonwealth to be honest ) Get this Circus taken down before it causes anymore damage.

Duker

The International Court ruled against the UK.

So the idea that UK insists on other countries following international rules but doesnt itself is hypocrisy

The UK government agreement with Mauritius ( from whom they took the islands in early 1960s when they got independence- so no comparison with populated places Falklands or Gibraltar) is conditional on a lease of Diego Garcia with the USN

Diego Garcia base will continue , which is where a nuclear sub would visit, not Jonno nonsense idea of one of the other atolls.

The negotiations were started under Liz Truss government and continued through Sunak to a final result under Starmer.

Wake up and smell the rose as your information is totally incorrect

Barry from Barrow.

I’m happy to be given alternative explanations and legal facts, I have followed these developments for some time and I am entitled to have an opinion on this (like so many others do) which I believe should not have happened due to rising threats in the area. It’s a shame you chose to add such rude comments.

Duker

See below where you cant have ‘followed’ anything. There is nothing rude about smell the roses when your views are easily refuted by publicly known facts

Barry from Barrow.

I see the sarcasm/humour in your post, DG is an airbase lacking any meaningful port facilities but I think the bigger problem is the rising threats in that area, it’s ok to have paper agreements but now we are relinquishing ownership,(no longer the British Indian Ocean Territory’s) it opens doors to new regimes not to mention giving new impetus to certain other bitterly contested ownership claims, as we are now seeing.

D J

While DG is uniquely bang in middle of the Indian Ocean & why UK wanted to keep it as a military base, it’s not the only options. NATO member France has territory in Western Indian Ocean (Reunion) & US/UK ally Australia in Eastern Indian Ocean (Cocus / Kealing Islands), Australia is currently upgrading the existing airport to support P8 MPA’s. There are alternative options. Still DG is uniquely positioned.

Barry from Barrow.

Yes, uniquely positioned for UK Interest’s and Influence, only a clown would give it away. Dreading to think what other damage this latest government will do. I’ve never known such a mess in such a short period of time.

Duker

It was taken from Mauritius who are getting it back after the International Court ruled against Uk.
The USN will still run the port and airbase- hence the long standing name NSF Diego Garcia. USAF detatchments and stopovers happen too alongside British Forces Indian Ocean

Duker

uniquely positioned for UK Interest’s and Influence”

Wrong position as there is this better one, Australias current sub base HMAS Stirling near Perth, better suited to operations in East Asia.

But those that ‘follow’ these events would already know this

From as early as 2027, AUKUS partners will have a rotational presence at HMAS Stirling of, one UK and up to 4 US, nuclear-powered submarines. This presence will be known as Submarine Rotational Force – West (SRF-West).

https://www.asa.gov.au/aukus/submarine-rotational-force-west

Duker

Thats false . DG is a USN base with a formal name. Im staggered you lack any cursory knowledge of the island

Attack subs are there all the time while occasionally a Boomer makes a visit

“The US wants its adversaries, as well as allies, to know that, for the first time, a USN nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine docked at the remote island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean as part of an extended months-long deployment.

This week, the Navy revealed the docking of the USS West Virginia and its port visit that actually took place from October 25 to 31. [CNN]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Facility_Diego_Garcia
and its tenant commands

  • Maritime Pre-Positioning Ships Squadron TWO
  • Branch Health Clinic
  • Naval Computer And Telecommunications Station Far East Detachment Diego Garcia
  • Naval Mobile Construction Battalion Detachment
  • Naval Media Center Detachment Diego Garcia
  • Military Sealift Command Office Diego Garcia
  • Mission Support Facility
  • Fleet Logistics Center Diego Garcia
  • NAVFAC Public Works Department
  • Many other USAF detachments too

The UK side of the naval base is

British Forces British Indian Ocean Territories (BFBIOT)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Forces_British_Indian_Ocean_Territories

Jason

I wager our V boats only sail in the North Atlantic.

SurfaceShipsRule

One thing with gash that just made me think how serious it could become for the BNs, is we produced mega amounts of gash at sea on surface ships, and at one point on my first ship we couldn’t ditch gash for 6 weeks whilst at sea out the Gulf due to operational requirements. This was before gash fridge compartments like on the newer ships and the QD gash nets were full to the point of breaking with food waste and all sorts. The smell was horrific and there were flies everywhere. When we eventually ditched gash it took hours alongside and the aft end of a normally spotless warship was disgusting for ages afterwards. The flies got into the ship via the QD door as we had no choice but transit in and out of it, and we had to be issued fly repellant for the lads down the after mess decks and the POs mess. When we were taking gash up the QD ladder in the human chain system, the tins and bags were spuing gash juice all over the lads, who were then being sick and it was gross for all involved. The point to this story is that if you have nowhere to put waste other than hang on to it, it can become a real issue in large amounts, and also a health hazard. Our waste in the dit above was able to be stored outside of the ship’s interior and it was still really bad. If the Submariners end up getting it anything like that on the longer patrols with it inside the boat and nowhere to go, then I feel for the poor buggers. I feel for them anyway as being away on a ship for a long period is bad enough, but inside a steel tube full of gash must be horrendous. They get more money and they earn that extra everyday they are at sea on boats, but I personnally think that they should get even more. Especially Bomber ratings doing 6 months under the water at a time!!!

Jon

I recall reading that the USS Ford has a Canadian waste incinerator on board that uses a plasma arc to convert shredded waste to gas. Possibly impractical for a sub without a way to dissolve the gas into sea water, but it seemed very good for surface ships.

Barry from Barrow.

A great invention for full time RV/Motorhome dwellers is the Incinerating toilet, It separates liquids from solids and only activates when the receptacle is full of S*&t , whilst the dehydration process of said S*&t does take a while, the eventual result is rather satisfying and negates the need to dump said S*&t in the environment. It’s not cheap though.

Jason

Yes they have some macerator.BBC podcast revealed long ago.

Supportive Bloke

Vacuum compaction of packing etc is a thing for used packaging.

It just uses the same vac packs you use at home for your sweaters to keep the moths off.

Can etc use a compactor.

Plastics container a heated and mechanically compressed. Then vac packed. You can then put them in the freezer. So bacteria don’t go wild and it doesn’t smell.

It can be managed up to a point.

Leah

Theey probably ate the disgusting army rations which well are easy to store and heat up. Only nice part: Tobasco sauce.

Jason

On X, someone said they are using the sous vide method of cooking from bags of cooked ingridients like H Blumenthal did in for Turbulent.

OkamsRazor

An alternative solution to lack of space, is getting ride of toilet paper and using Japanese style Bidet! Presumably this is already used in Japanese and South Korean subs. This solution has the added advantage of being retrofittable (£36 toilet seat attachment) and quick. So never happen!

Last edited 17 days ago by OkamsRazor
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

OkamsRazor and Others

This whole issue of “onboard housekeeping, catering and gash disposal” is yet another one of those often quite-easily forgotten, but usually vital, issues:

It is one where the whole of the RN seems to have fallen about thirty to forty years behind the times.

The RN are not simply following “best commercial practice on dry land”, nor those practices routinely used by other merchant fleet’s.

Separating Waste Streams

  • The RN currently mixes up all of its gash.
  • Then its pays its sailors a daily allowance to sort it all out again (usually less than 24 hours after it has just been so carelessly mixed up). Simply bizarre!
  • Things like cardboard boxes are, very easily, separated out at source and then the different types of waste can be stowed separately
  • That massively reduces the risk cross-comtaimination and – especially – the smell
  • So do onboard a ship what everybody else nowdays does at home = separate waste streams at source
  • All gash to be separated into different bins: with all those bins clearly marked and coloured up
  • That must must surely be the right way to go.
  • And for good example. Cardboard, kept just on its own, then can very easily be compacted by a very small commercial compactor: so it takes up only about a quarter of the space.

Food Waste

  • Obviously “almost the worse” type of waste disposal: and certainly routinely the most-smelly
  • I have never understood why the RN has not fitted all of its ship’s galley(s) with heavy-duty macerators, in the waste pipe just below the sink(s) drain hole
  • the contra-rotating macerator blades simply pulverise all remaing food waste into tiny particles
  • Then – quite literally immediately – it can all be flushed down the waste pipes: and out with the ships grey water waste, straight out to sea.
  • Food waste need never go near those gash bins ever again: and therefore it does not need to be kept on board (i.e. to then go “rotten and smelly”)

Food Stowage

  • As every day-sailor on a yacht knows from day one: storing food in cardboard boxes onboard any cramped ship simply encourages the rapid breeding of parasites: especially roaches and weevils.
  • Keeping any food, especially raw ingredients, in dozens of cardboard boxes onboard any ship is just asking for trouble
  • So why not buy open topped plastic trays, about one metre square, of the same type that every supermarket uses as standard – and load the food into them?
  • Clean and reuse after each deployment
  • and these easily stack higher far easier than wobbly cardboard boxes: which is why the supermarkes use them

Food Preparation

  • I had forgotten , until Jason mentioned it (above) that Heston – the only celebrity chef with a service station on the M4 motorway named after him – had once served on board a submarine
  • Surely with modern food preparation techniques – ot the type now seen daily on every supermarket shelf, they must be a better way to have some meals pre-prepared on land?
  • Maybe ideally not to be used at the start of a deployment: but certainly better than emergency ration packs much later on
  • After all, was it not the Victorian-era British Navy which orginally ordered its preservable food to be brought on board in sealed tin cans ?
  • and so, why not keep a back-up supply of canned fruit on board? Large sized catering tins of peaches, pears and grapefruit typically have a sealed shelf life of two yaers. So just keep until needed

Hand-driers

  • If one vists any modern big shopping centre, block of offices, etc etc one rarely finds any paper hand towels in their loos.
  • They all use big hand-driers.
  • Why?
  • it is more hygenic
  • it saves the cost of buying, and refilling reguarly, all those paper hand towels
  • that, in turn, creates a virtuous circle = of creating less solid waste, so less solid gash to dispose of (which in turn keeps the Greta T’s of this world off ones back)…
  • So, why is the RN not fitting hot air hand-driers in both heads and galleys?
  • Phone up that nice Mr J. Dysom: and buy quite a few of his go-faster British made hand-driers. They only require a simple plug!

Toilet Rolls: Go large

  • Obviously bogroll, or toilet roll as it is called in the ladies heads, is simply vital onboard any grey funnel cruise liner.
  • However, today, the RN buys domestic sized loo-rolls = the small ones of the type once advertised by the andrex puppy.
  • So – and you may have guessed already that the “bleeding obvious” solution is coming up next – why is the RN not buying the bog-standard larger commercial-sized rolls: the ones which would come on-board both in much larger rolls and, crucially, be much-more-tightly wrapped.
  • To use these larger rolls simply require the fitting of the larger-diameter dispensers in each cubicle
  • Suddenly, with larger and more-tightly-wound rolls, far less space is needed to store bogroll (OR one can carry more supplies of the vital bogroll in the same sized stores cabin)
  • and the other advantage is that one runs out of bogroll less often in each cubicle….

And before anybody comes up with the “bog-standard” excuse – the catch-phrase of all of the UK’s armed forces today:

  • “Sorry gov: we haven’t got the money and we can’t afford to change bogroll”

(note: please excuse the quite-deliberate pun)

I will now point on that, on the public record back the late 1980’s, a RN bomber boat moored up alongside at Falsane was nearly “taken out and sunk ” by “friendly fire” from those nasty bogrolls:

  • A junior rate had stacked a big pile of highly-flammable new bogroll packets right up against a submarine’s electrical cabinet – and then he had “very enthusiatically” packed more in, all very tightly.
  • The under-ventilated cabinet soon overheated: igniting the big pile of loo-paper.
  • The big fire soon spread and it took several hours to extingish
  • They only just had enough extingisher’s on the entire base: all were emptied.
  • That fire was one the most serious safety incidents ever to have occured onboard a RN nuclear powered boat..

—————–

Given that onboard cleanliness and housekeeping etc etc has always been a vital daily task of any warship’s crew – and therefore it has always been rigerously inspected daily for the past hundreds of years……

……it is all the more baffling as to why the RN has not “moved on with the times”

….becuase these issues are all standard operaing practices out here in the real world.

And, furthermore by saving just some of the sailor’s gash pay (i.e. some of the extra pay for sorting out the mixed-up daily gash), the Procurement Initiative on Ship and Submarines (note 1) should, quite easily, pay for itself in the first year….

We now need a flag officer and – obviously – a big committee of underlings to take charge of the redeployment of toilet rolls and gash sortation across our fleet.

This one is definitely a case for a UOR.

And, free benefit, our warships and submarines will “smell nicer” on a long deployment

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Note 1.

This four-letter naval acronym once gave rise to the nautical phrase:“A Piece of P***”

Jason

This is a submarine. You can’t have noisy stuff like hand driers. There are macerators but the OOD/W must give authorisation to use them or the enemy hears the noise.

Food is stored everywhere due to lack of space.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Jason

I totally agree with your comment – that minimising the overall acoustic signature of an RN submarine at sea is absolutely vital (or it will be seriously life-threatening…..)

So yes, by all means do some proper trials and tests before implementing these suggestions on board all of our submarines, i.e.

  • Select a very quiet type of handdrier (they do exist)
  • Put the macerator(s) inside an acoustically sealed cupboard etc

However let us not forget that the vast majority of a UK submarine’s noise signature is emitted by one of only two things: fixed equipment / plant / reactor pumps etc and / or the crew moving about.

And changing the type of bogroll will, unless some pratt at Qinetiq proves to me otherwise, not increase the submarine’s acoustic signature by a single decibel …

————–

Yes, I know that, currently, food is stored “everywhere” on a boat (due to a perceived lack of space):

On a WW2 era submarine of, lets say, about 2,500 tons, it would only be out for a few weeks or a couple of months at a time: so that practice was acceptable.

However these four brand-new Bomber boats now being built at Barrow are twice the displacement of the old Polaris boats of the 1980’s: with very-approximately the same number of crew on board (quite possibly a dozen fewer?).

Therefore on a modern brand-new Dreadnought – which lets not forget is a boat which weighs in at about 17,000 tons – quite frankly – “food stored everywhere” is unacceptable bad practice: especially for an extended six month CASD patrol.

In my humble opinion, it is BAe over at Barrow continuing their very long standing – and it now has to be added very poor – design practices .

i.e. “we have always done it this way for the past one hundred and twenty years: so why bother to change in the third decade of the 21st century?”

————————

However,

  • on board surface ships, what i have suggested (above) should all be made standard operating procedure.
  • It should also be implemented at all shore-based establishments

This topic is, frankly, noher example of the RN being “vey stuck in its ways”

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Nigel Collins

Many thanks for the update on Barrow-in-Furness, it appears the damage is minor thank god.

Todd

In the comments section of another website reporting on this same incident, someone said:

“While SSBNs are nuclear-powered [and thus theoretically can remain at sea almost indefinitely], the crews aboard, are not”.