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ATH

They only represent an ability to fill gaps if there is funding to develop and acquire them. I suspect any real terms increase in the UK defence budget will for the next few years need to go on attracting and retaining high skills people in a very competitive employment market together with adding ammo and spares to give defence more depth. The chances of new projects getting to the high spending stage is poor for quite a long time.

Erich W

interesting concepts but in part I wonder why this wasn’t done sooner given there isn’t really anything about this concept that is necessarily unique to the unmanned component. It might be convenient with regards to endurance and simplify some logistics (need for accommodation, food/supplies, etc.) but if these vessels have the same characteristics as the crewed variants you are essentially just getting a small workboat and sticking weapons on it, which was already an option the MOD seems to have opted against.

Jonathan

Well they have done this for the mine warfare systems, since they have gone for the SEA boats for a large number of tasks including autonomous mine warfare it would make sense to double down.

Mark Tucker

Have you noticed a bigger is better trend in modern ship design? The option of building smaller has always existed, but it absolutely has its critics. As you point out the MOD has turned down options like these in the past.

I doubt if some of these proposals are even big enough to fit the equipment in these images. Highly likely any serious proposal would quickly evolve into something bigger.

These do look inspired by the saying; something is better than nothing.

JOHN MELLING

 AEUK come up with some amazing designs. Im always impressed with their efforts

Whale Island Zookeeper

I have been thinking about an unmanned version of this…….

A remote controlled mobile mine as it were. I am thinking about those occasions when the Swedes have chased ‘submarines’ around their archipelago.

http://www.hisutton.com/images/Iran-DPRK-Zulfikar-TAEDONG-B-cutaway-940.jpg

Coll

Or have one with sea spear launchers.

SeaSpear_rvb-scaled-1
SailorBoy

The thin launchers looked like they might fit GMLRS or the new Land Precision Strike, so they may be going for a more ambitious armament.
Sea Spear would be nice, though 👍

Bloke down the pub

Putting towed array sonar on an usv to monitor the waters around the Clyde seems such a sensible step that it’s strange not to have been tried sooner.
TRAPS – USV – GeoSpectrum Technologies Inc

ATH

For somewhere like the Clyde I suspect seabed sensors are the way to go, if it hasn’t already been done.

Random Commentator

It would be 5 minutes before peace protestors boarded it and hijacked it – not an option.

Robert

ASW sentry seems like a good role, but why wait for some overpriced unmanned vessel? That design looks much like the SEA class workboats, like HMS Magpie.

Peter S

Indeed. A lightly manned version of the platform would be cheaper and quicker to introduce.

ATH

But you wouldn’t want to send a lightly maned workboat into potential harms way.

Peter S

Some of the roles proposed would be low risk. As BMT have suggested with their larger USV concept, light manning would likely continue even in a highly autonomous vessel. Testing feasibility in a manned version before attempting full/high autonomy, would be sensible and low cost.

Jonathan

That’s because it is a SEA class workboat, ARCIMS are literally nothing more than autonomous versions of SEA class workboats…

Mark

Magpie is a design from the Irish company Safehaven Marine.

King Spark

We’re getting desperate now aren’t we?

Teves

I wonder if the rapid ranger missile assembly could be fitted to a self levelling mount to enable it to be navalised shorad. Would be useful in the gulf with starstreak and LMM missiles to take out the drones and surface contacts.

donald_of_tokyo

Very good proposal.

1: ASW sentry is great.

ASW is “awfully slow warfare” and is best suited with unmanned/remote-ctrl assets. As written in the article, ASW-USV can be the primary “pinger” with no risk (pinger location is well known to enemy sub from very far away), and as a (small) contributor to “listener”. Also, it very much fit with “current” T23ASW shortage problem. For example, ASW scan of Firth of Clyde can be done with them. Maybe even Irish sea.

Operated from land-base, it will contribute to RN members’ comfort (no need to stay at sea to conduct “awfully slow warfare”),

When the situation be relaxed when all T26 be delivered in 2036 or so, the ASW suit can be relocated on ARCIMS USV to be carried on T26’s mission bay. It will help T26’s ASW capability especially in shallow water.

2: How to achieve this with current limited resource? Easy.

Use the 15-m boat with trooper kits for UNRUs. Being cheap, UK will be able to buy 16 of them each for the 16 UNRUs. Buy unmanned control + ASW kits, say, 6 sets of them, and “sometimes” use it on the 15-m SEA boats. For an UNRU, their boat sometimes (in rotation) used for “real work” = ASW-sentry tasks is just a good thing for their pride?

As 16-units of 15-m SEA boats are much cheaper and less maintenance intensive than 16 Archer class patrol boats, UK will even buy 4-6 patrol boats for Coastal Forces Squadron (like Damen 4008 type, used by Navy-X or 5009 type used by Falkland Island fishery squadron).

Last edited 1 month ago by donald_of_tokyo
SailorBoy

Can a T26 carry a 15m boat?
That must be close to the limit of the MBHS, surely?

donald_of_tokyo

Sorry for not being clear.

My proposal is to

  • use 15m boat for land-based operation AND UNRU
  • and as this will “free up” some of the 11m-boat ARCIMS from current tasks, then ARCIMS with ASW kit can be carried on T26.

I hope it is clearer now. For land-based operation, 15m boat is much much better than 11m boat, for sure. It is only for ship-based operations 11m boats become “useful”.

SailorBoy

Another idea that I have wondered about for the SEA class is the possibility of replacing the P2000/ Archers with the 18m type.
HMS Magpie is a very, very seaworthy vessel for its size (see the Navy Lookout SEA class article for a video) and is faster than the Archers.
It is also inherently modular so all that would be needed is to order 10-12 more hulls (Bird class?) with a “coastal patrol” module with IR/EO sensors and perhaps a remote machine gun on the roof.
More commonality and a more comfortable ride for the coastal squadron.

Whale Island Zookeeper

P2000 are already cramped I would want the replacement to bigger. Something like the RCN’s Orca’s at 33m would be preferable.

The Archer’s speed is all to do with its engine fit out. The hull was designed with the right engines to top out well over 40kts.

Armchair Admiral

I like that idea. However, the Archers have a ‘bridge’ and so on, albeit small, and so wouldn’t the SEA boats be more like large speedboats by comparison and not have the same presence, despite better seakeeping/speed and so on?

The other thing that makes me uneasy about all this upbeat chat is the mention of all these lovely plug-and-play modules. Can we in our heart of hearts see these things being bought?

If it was up to me, the ASW lite thing seems to be a great idea and some 18m units should be purchased ASAP, followed by some T26 capable 11m versions. Can a T31 carry one? Probably not, but what an enabler for it.
AA

SailorBoy

HMS Magpie, the 18m boat, is based off a different hull from from the others. It looks much more imposing and “ship-like”.
Being a catamaran there will be much more deck space in HMS Magpie than in an Archer (which are really cramped, it’s unpleasant to be aboard) so be more comfortable for the crew.
Archers are more like police boats anyway, at least with an 18m SEA they can chase.
It’s unlikely this ever gets done but I think for cost and convenience this would probably be one of the best ways of replacing the ancient P2000s.

Whale Island Zookeeper

It also only has accommodation for 9 whereas P2000 has 18 berths.

Orca’s have 24 berths. What has deck space go to do with anything?

comment image

SailorBoy

A ship that size will cost disproportionately more than a smaller replacement for not much advantage.
I mentioned deck area because on a ship that size it has much more effect on the accommodation available than the raw hull volume.
For example, on Magpie the area below the bridge is all one space which would most likely be used for the galley and mess area and also potentially an officer’s cabin. The workspace is aft and has more space on the rear deck available for expansion. This leaves the entire bow and mid space of each hull available for accomodation, which in relatively comfortable conditions is about right for what AEUK claim, which is “Ample accomodation for up to 12 crew members”.
That’s about the same as any 60 foot luxury catamaran.

Whale Island Zookeeper

So you point out one of the main problems of the Archers. Then say the solution is a smaller hull and ramming more bodies into it.

Last edited 1 month ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
SailorBoy

No.
A “small” catamaran like Magpie has much more accomodation and particularly working space than a monohull of equivalent displacement. If you have spent time around sailing yachts as I have, the difference becomes very obvious.
What I can find of Magpie’s interior is worlds away from the badly laid out and cramped cabins on an Archer, especially in ergonomics.
The hulls are also much more spacious. The catamaran arrangement allows one square section cabin filling each hull rather than packing bunks in odd corners.
Put simply, I would much rather be at sea for a week in a SEA 18m of any sort than have to spend any more time than I already have (quick tour at a boat show) on an Archer.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I am a sailor. And I have spent a lot of time around ships too.

Archer was never ever designed as a training ship.

And you are working arse about face.

You do realise that Archers venture all around NW Europe? They don’t just paddle about the UK offshore. If you would rather be in catamaran in the middle of the North Sea off to say Oslo then good for you……….

SailorBoy

Now who working arse about face?
What does an Archer do, seakeeping and endurance-wise, that Magpie will not?
Have you read their datasheet on it?
600 litre water tank is just the beginning.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I am not an Archer fan. Point out where I said that? Come on where did I say that?

I will recap for you shall I? Magpie is smaller than the the less than ideal Archer. Magpie has less accommodation than Archer whose accommodation is fare from optimum to begin with. Doubling the accommodation in Magpie only reduces crew spay. Magpie is a catamaran. Catamarans roll like pigs. They are vomit comets. Less than ideal for a boat for general training.

You are yet another prat here whose comprehension skills are lacking.

Last edited 1 month ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
Andrew Harris

Is there anyone on here you actually haven’t insulted ?

SailorBoy

Don’t think so, that’s the first time for me

Andrew Harris

Everyone gets it I’m afraid.

Mark

Magpie is a Safehaven design, not a AEUK design.

SailorBoy

I know, that’s what makes it more suitable because it is designed for heavy weather and seakeeping.

Mark

Except they have no weaponised design of that hull, and a full order book as things stand, and so far their military proposals are all more “raider” style than what this proposal is.

Duker

Why even have something thats ‘always above the surface’

Iran’s ‘Zulfikar’ Submersible Torpedo Boat
www^hisutton.com/Iran-Zulfikar-TAEDONG-B^html

Iran-DPRK-Zulfikar-TAEDONG-B-cutaway-9401
Sean

That’s a semi-submersible built by North Korea for special forces infiltration – totally different to what’s proposed here.
http://www.hisutton.com/Demystified%20-%20Taedong-B%20submersible%20infiltration%20craft.html

Last edited 1 month ago by Sean
Duker

It says semi submersible and I say why have only a surface vessel to show its a different direction.

Anyway the text and images of the story does include torpedo boats.
You should read the fine print more carefully

Torpedo-boat1
Sean

If you bothered to read the text yourself rather than just looking at the pretty pictures then you’d know that the two lightweight torpedoes it carries are defensive, not offensive. It’s for special forces infiltration, which is why they are operated by the IRG not the Iranian Navy or Marines.

Duker

So what are the lightweight (12 in) torpedoes for in the concept boat in NL story.

Any torpedo is an offensive weapon !…..ROFL
from the link

 Iran’s submersible torpedo boats represent a serious threat to shipping in the confined waters of the Persian Gulf and, potentially, Red Sea. They would be ambush predators, able to operate from any small port, and surprise ships in natural chokepoints. This would have a greater chance of surprising their target than surface vessels or aerial drones (UAVs)”

Read the text from HI Sutton carefully my friend. Whats your meaning for ambush predators ?

This ROK naval ship was sunk by a midget sub. Not too far from a semi- submersible from the North
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking

Sean

Ah the typical conspiracy theorist approach, conflating two different things to disingenuously confuse the argument. The South Korean corvette was sunk by a midget submarine, the Zulfikar is not a midget submarine, it’s a semi-submersible used for infiltration.

As for trying to dismiss the differences between defensive and offensive weaponry… I suspect everyone reading this site understands that concept, even you.

Duker

Your understanding is sub optimal.
No conspiracy offered but go for if its your thing as I said it was a midget sub.
A semi submersible has the the same capability -look up the word-when fitted with torpedoes as does the ‘launch’ in the main story.

You havent read the HI Sutton story properly at all. I learn from people like Sutton who know far more than me …do you
They would be ambush predators, able to operate from any small port, and surprise ships in natural chokepoints. This would have a greater chance of surprising their target than surface vessels or aerial drones
Clearly an offensive capability and operation example . Like the Atlas launch mentioned in the story.

Monty

Google less and think more, tell us how Starlink works, dude?

Last edited 1 month ago by Monty
Duker

Sockpuppet of the day, stolen name to boot.

Scribes

So Sci Fi comes into the realms of the sea once more and with such proposals which will be controlled by AI of course, that means we let machines decide when and how to kill humans. Do we really want machines doing it without human control? NO.

Life in the services is not about being safe but ensuring others are safe and risks have to be taken to ensure that.

Duker

How do you train the AI for these sort missions. You cant is the short and long answer
AI is only useful for repetitive things, summarising screeds of text and creating pictures based on its art library ( but sometimes gets it all wrong)

5LFXxLM1
Sean

Completely and utterly wrong.
True there is a lot of marking hype, and we’re probably going to see another tech-bubble as we did in the dot-com boom. But existing large language models (LLMs) are already way more capable than your ignorant description. Arguably they already exceed your intelligence as I’ve yet to come across a LLM that wilfully ignores the science underpinning anthropomorphic climate-change

Duker

Exactly how does very capable LLM version of AI have small ships monitoring an attacking tragets of interest… because they have studied Mahan means they have all the answers . Hint …thats where its more useful, the HQ level.

To you climate scares are clearly some sort of unchallengeable theology
Its not science…. many subjects like psychology, economics etc are like climate change that pretend they are science, but mostly opinion. Climate computer models being the worst culprits

Last edited 1 month ago by Duker
Sean

You clearly don’t realise the AI is already being used extensively. What are called ‘heat-seeking’ missiles are using Imaging InfraRed (IIR) to identify targets – image processing was one of the earliest forms of AI to be researched long before LLMs were even conceptualised. (It’s was even a part of the Computer Science AI Specialisation Degree I studied at university many decades ago.)
Other missiles, such as the UK’s own Storm Shadow is an example of a missile that uses a thermographic camera to recognise its target, that’s real-world AI in action. LLM is just one AI model, there are many approaches.

Your rapid back-tracking from AI being only useful for “creating pictures from its art library” to it being “more useful (at) HQ level” is amusing. Not even the French retreat that quickly!

Yes you claimed previously that climatology “isn’t a real science like physics for which it’s possible to win a Nobel Prize”. I recall how silent you became after I posted links to the Nobel Prize for Physics that was won for climate modelling. Anthropological climate change has a vast body of peer-reviewed facts supporting its existence. Whereas your opinions are simply supported by conspiracy-peddling extremist politicians, YouTube grifters, and your own selfish prejudices.

Last edited 1 month ago by Sean
Duker

Behold , the results of various climate models… well 90 of them .
We are both too young to remember the new economic system from 1917 that also was claimed to be infallible and scientific

climate258-21
Last edited 1 month ago by Duker
Colin

Are you infallible and scientific with all your claims?

AlexS

Climate models that can’t even predict what is already moderately known, ie climate of the past, have not even a right to be called models.

Climate science is an embryonic science that is only starting.
The fact that it got political support via the political catalyst profession: journalism is what makes it even exist in common people minds.

Sean

Climate science didn’t “get political support”, what politicised is was opposition to climate-science from those with a vested financial interest in not taking action. Just as tobacco companies suppressed the cancer dangers of smoking, it was oil companies own scientists who identified the dangers of climate-change through burning fossil fuels, and it was those companies who first suppressed this, and then financed politicians to attack the science.

To claim climate science is political is as ridiculous as claiming gravity or the shape of the earth is political. What is political is the denial of the science.

Sean

Am I meant to be impressed that conspiracy theorists can now produce fake graphs in Photoshop?

Duker

Image processing , like on a flat screen TV or missiles seekers can be enhanced by AI . But thats for the future , computer algorithms are what they use currently.
What you refer to is the supervision learning algorithms where they are told what the image is and corrected but during development phase.
Its much more a matching exercise

s743nxkfaxovdpi1
Sean

You clearly don’t understand what AI is, image processing as currently done with algorithms falls under its definition. We have had AI systems since the 1960’s through expert systems, image and natural language processing, etc.
That you think that Generative AI/ LLM is the only AI in existence shows your compete lack of knowledge of the subject.

OkamsRazor

Conflating “GenerativeAI” with “Machine Learning”? But you are correct there are many types of AI. The AI which has been developed by DeepMind, Reinforcement Learning, famously in its “Alpha” series (AlphaGo, AlphaFold etc), is a much more promising route to “actual” AI than LLMs, the “Stochastic Parrot” route.

OkamsRazor

There is no “Intelligence” involved in an LLM or in GenerativeAI. GenerativeAI is by definition “generative”, just because it generates anthropomorphic answers (Parrots sound just as clever), doesn’t mean the answer/picture/video is “reasoned” just that it is a probability gleaned from training data (LLM).

Duker

Very good point. I once used it on this site ‘to sound like King Charles commemorating some naval event’ … and it parroted it amazingly well.

Sean

Why am I not surprised you’d boast about quoting a dictator…

Duker

King Charles a dictator ?

“Today, I am honoured to extend my heartfelt gratitude to the remarkable team behind the Navy Lookout website. Your dedication and tireless efforts have been instrumental in highlighting the valiant work of the Royal Navy, thus ensuring its continued prominence and support.

In an era where the significance of our naval forces can sometimes be overshadowed, your steadfast commitment to shedding light on their achievements and challenges has been nothing short of extraordinary. Your work not only celebrates their valor but also fortifies their place in our national consciousness.

It is with sincere appreciation that I thank you for your invaluable contribution. Your efforts are a testament to the power of informed advocacy and its impact on preserving the esteemed heritage of the Royal Navy.

With deepest thanks and admiration

K C

Sean

Of course there is no real intelligence in LLM or Generative AI, there is no humanlike understanding of the data involved. It’s not even reasoned either, though there are now attempts to get generative AI to ‘explain’ their results.
Rather generative AI is probability based pattern-matching with a high degree of abstraction. But any marketeer will tell you that “AI” is an easier sell to the bloke in the street or the investment managers in pension funds. Which is why I said that LLMs are not the answer to AI. They are a part, as humans solve a great many problems through probabilistic pattern matching. But we also know that pattern-matching on its own can result in factually unsupported results – the best example being many conspiracy theories. In the end many different approaches, including LLMs, would need to be combined together to produce a reasonable simulacra of intelligence. And it only needs to be a simulacra to past the Turing Test, in the same way any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to those that don’t understand it.

Mike

Great idea if you are fighting in calm conditions? Not great in sea states of the North Atlantic, Norwegian Sea, South Atlantic in the winter. I would even question the Mediterranean! Also which Warship is going to have a launch capability??? It needs an RFA but they have run out of people and ships!!!!!

Hakens

You hit the nail on the head mate.
However, USV has a future and its usefulness has been shown by the Ukrainian.

Still, it is one thing to find and hit targets in a Crimea harbor, and it is another thing to do so in the Norwegian Sea or the South Atlantic. How will it get there? Is it on its own power or transported by another vessel? Does it have the range and how many could be transported on what vessel?

Two NSMs on a USV is not a lot of added hitting power and will require at least half a dozen of USVs with NSMs to make a difference.

What are the logistics to support such USVs assuming they are not on a one-way mission?

As for ASW, any USV with anti-submarine detection gears is an added value.
For 5mil each with NSMs or sonars is a relative bargain compared with a cheap frigate of 500mil each.

So 20 USVs for a total of 100mil is cheap

For AAW, USV with CAMM will only be BPD, and require some cooperative engagement capacity with the air detection by a mother vessel. How will the USV be re-arm?

Jon

I was having a look at the Vahana boats and was interested to see that the last two were reportedly named HMS Merlin and Fantome by some sources. Do boats other than commissioned ones get an HMS prefix? Janes missed out the HMS prefix when reporting it and I wondered if someone here knew.

Callum

In effect, we’re looking at the return of a late 19th century concept: the torpedo boat tender. You load up a transport full of nasty little blighters, in this case light AShMs, sail them to the target area, and let them descend on a harbour or other vulnerable target, haul any survivors back aboard, and sail away.

A modern strike boat tender could be an absolute terror in the South China Sea or Black Sea, especially in concert with stealth fighters and heavyweight ship-launched weapons backing them up.

Jonno

I’m interested that there is work on boats of this size. OK for esturine defence, places like the Clyde and its approaches. However, beyond those places like the North Sea you probably need boats of the 25-30m size or even larger due to encountering real waves and endurance requirements. This seems to be problematic for the RN where costs increase exponentially.