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Henry

Sounds like these new gunboats will be built at Appledore, FSS built at H and W?

Stephen

Perhaps the F.S.S. could be built in blocks around the U.K. like the aircraft carriers and then assembled in H. & W.’s giant dry dock? This way a few different yards around the U.K. could benefit, e.g. Appledore, Cammell Laird on the Mersey, A. & P. Tyne, Fergusons on the Clyde.

borg

Stephen, I think It’s all going to come down to Timescales. Appledore is a small yard with a great history in building this sort of ship but It’s been shut down for a while now so It’ll probably take time to get up and running again.

TrevorH

This sounds plausible.

Jamyhants

These are complex, high density outfit, light weight designs which require a shipyard with the right skills and experience. This was lost when BAE close its Portsmouth build organisation (ex. Vosper Thornycroft).

Sam

Awesome if true….whilst their at it build some for the Royal Navy too 😁

X

We do need something small (and fast) for FP work.
comment image

Sam

Ahh the old Peacock Class 😉

sparky42

You can always try and buy back the two from Ireland, they’re the least capable and most disliked to crew, though they’ve plenty more sea miles on them at this stage.

X

It was the last class of the size of ship I was on about so served as an example. 750 tonnes designed to ride out Asian typhoons. All ships have problems.

sparky42

Interestingly they’re pretty much East Coast/Irish Sea boats now, the Irish Navy hates having them out on the West Coast.

X

Irish Box, Channel coast, and southern North Sea.

Sam

Sounds very similar to the Flower Class Corvettes from WW2 😆 Just checked and the Flowers had 30% greater Displacement 😮

Last edited 4 months ago by Sam
borg

My Grandad was on HMS Kelly and a couple of Flower Class. I have the Ships bell off one, can’t say which though.

Sam

The Peacocks are old and have all lost their 76mm Compacts over the years. They had some good features when launched like full A/C for the tropics and solid range endurance. We would need something with more defences.

sparky42

The 76mm’s are still mounted, in the Irish ones anyway, not sure about the ones sold to the Philippines. In terms of endurance, suppose it depends, the crew situation for example is a major issue for the Irish service.

X

The Philippines added armaments such as 20mm cannon.

I would rather be drafted to Beckett class OPV than a Peacock.

But as I said I am talking about size and it was a representation.

sparky42

The Irish hulls have 20mm secondaries as well, like the rest of the fleet surplus from Germany, though Eithne I think is still unique in that as well.Doubt the replacement program for the secondaries will include the Peacocks though.

X

It would be nice to think the INS would get that new multi-purpose ship someday.

sparky42

Perhaps the most cursed project the Defence Forces has tried, each time it’s almost got sign off from cabinet, the world economy goes to hell.

sparky42

Not sure why that comment deserves down votes?

X

I don’t down vote. Which comment of yours was it that got downvoted?

Bloke back down the pub

May be connected to suggestions that the government’s commitment to the rules surrounding foreign aid will be changing. Once you allow foreign aid budget to be spent on defence projects, all sorts of possibilities open up.

Something different

I’ve been a strong advocate of retaining the foreign aid budget at present levels based on the grounds of national interest and altruism. However, I’m not adverse to the pot being used for these sorts of deals as it helps out a nation bearing the brunt of foreign aggression (altruism) while acting as a foil to a potential adversary of the UK (national interest).

Last edited 4 months ago by Something different
X

As I told you there is no pot. We have to borrow that money and then pay interest on that borrowing. We are £1.8 trillion in debt.

TrevorH

Every country is in debt. All European countries are spending billions on the virus issue.

X

So spending more is OK then?

Something different

Oh I thought we had agreed to differ on this elsewhere. I will not go over old ground but all I would say is your statement applies to any government spending.

X

We did! Sorry. 🙂

Something different

No problem 🙂

borg

That’s the nice side of this site, we can all get on despite our history of opposite opinions. Now If we could just dump the stupid Downvoting thing, things would be a lot nicer here.

borg

In my mind i have an image of an infant like, old aged, overweight, bald person, with nothing better to do in their lives than to downvote using one stubby fat finger. I can see them Laughing and sweating profusely . 🙂

Sunmack

That’s just not true. I can downvote using two fingers! 😀

Joe16

We borrow a lot of money in general, so so much more than the foreign aid budget! About half of what we spend as foreign aid is actually in the form of loans, which we earn interest on. Compared to the “profitability” of many other departments, the foreign aid one is not a bad return on our borrowing.

X

<i> the foreign aid one is not a bad return on our borrowing </i>

Really? £12 billion plus interest year on year for what exactly?

And how is borrowing more money if we in debt an answer to anything?



Joe16

£12B, at least half of which is paid back with interest higher than we pay to have borrowed it in the first place. Compare that to the amount we spend on pretty much anything else and that’s not bad. When we spend on defence acquisition of foreign equipment we get a lower return than that. It is, incidentally the target set by the UN for all developed countries- much like 2% is for NATO.
As far as for what, there are plenty of reviews as to whether the foreign aid is effective or not. On balance, it would appear to be so. It is far cheaper to stabilise countries and provide construction and develpment opportunities abroad than it is to deal with those same people here. And I have no problem with linking that support and aid with benefits for UK PLC down the line- as long as it isn’t exploitative (like China’s involvement generally is). The idea that we get nothing from this foreign aid is daft.
A little perspective on our debt: We have enormous amounts of it, the deficit (the year on year amount that debt increases by) is more of the problem. Tying foreign aid to our GDP/GNI is a good idea, it means that it doesn’t increase out of proportion to our capacity. Macro economics and household economics are two very different beasts, and debt works in different ways for the two. I found this helpful in understanding a bit of it
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/05/29/mythbuster-we-have-to-repay-the-national-debt/#:~:text=Since%201946%20the%20UK%20government,over%20the%20last%2074%20years.

Gareth

This is going to be a fantastic time for investment in shipbuilding

Not so fantastic given the reduced number T26s we’re getting and note he said “ship building” not “ship arming/equipping”.

Still no replacement announced for the Harpoon, T45s still not upgraded with Strike Length VLS, T26s anti-submarine frigates have no torpedo tubes and no ASROC currently in our inventory, T31’s with just 12 Sea Ceptors leaving them less well armed than fast attack craft shown above, etc. etc.

Last edited 4 months ago by Gareth
Gavin Gordon

I don’t think it’s too difficult to discern a cohesive intent by the RN with regard to it’s major surface escorts. To be meaningful, however, it would need the Government to commit to those class hull numbers already announced launched at least to the current design specifications.
Thus, as designed, the Type 26 would be the primary surface war vessel, outside of the carriers, available from the outset during any increasing period of tension, usefully further optimised towards the anti-submarine role.
Next in line are the Type 45 destroyers, being amenable to significant and fairly rapid upgrade by ulitizing their additional silo capacity ahead of the Viper installation.
Finally, you have the Type 31 class, currently designed down from their progenitors, but therefore capable of effective build enhancement when taken in hand.

AlexS

Oh Sir Humphrey!

Stephen JT

We’ve got the pie-in-the-sky (2030s….) replacement for Harpoon. Whatever the FC/ASW turns out to be… Let’s just hope nothing kicks off until at least the mid 2030s.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/07/will-the-french-british-fc-asw-missile-program-survive-a-hard-brexit/

Cam

Wtf! We need these kind of boats for places like the gulf and possible to escort warships in uk waters instead of sending destroyers and frigates…but we give ukraine the money to buy them! We are a joke… we spend so much money on other nations… and leave us with the bare minimum…

Last edited 4 months ago by Cam
DaveS

It says above we’re loaning them the money not giving it to them (presumably with a nice markup). Cash for Military equipment is normally government to government loans as Western banks won’t touch military deals.

Cam

Why don’t we lend it ourselves then, and build 10 we’ll armed patrol boats that can actually fight if needed, and not just have a defensive 30mm gun! 10 Cheap RN fast atack boats with anti ship missiles and the like would be great for the Royal navy and would fill multiple roles, and give us a more global presence and global reach.

Cam

However maybe Ukraine does need these type of boats for it territorial waters, to counter russian boats. But let’s hope Ukraine doesn’t just let Russia take its ship, tanks planes like in the past with no resistance!

borg

Agreed, as we also have to send Rivers and Hunts to do this job too, not to mention the Gosport Ferry.

bobs_Baradur

HMS Victory could be fitted with Penn trunk engines.
Carronades are excellent anti swarm weapons.

Cam

Maybe 16 inchers on her upper decks and some anti ship missiles on her masts.

Cam

And it’s a little better being armed with more than a dam cannon. These would provide a lethal force that the Royal Navy desperately needs globally. I say forward base them.

Stephen

Good news if true and it is definitely good to see some government support for British shipbuilding.

borg

The UK building small ships with lot’s of Weapons ? Are we still capable of doing that ?

Sunmack

Yes. Just not for ourselves as we’d rather build large warships with hardly any weapons

Last edited 4 months ago by Sunmack
Something different

The UK does not face the same threats to its immediate shoreline. It needs vessels with legs to project power and protect its long communication lines. Yes it has particular areas of interest (the gulf comes to mind) but any small vessel dedicated to fulfil a mission for one stretch of water risks over specialisation which the navy, with wide commitments and limited resources, probably can’t afford. I’m also very sceptical about the survivability of FAC/light corvettes in contested blue water scenarios (the Black Sea is different to the Atlantic) especially with a questionable anti missiles fit and no coastline to hide in and enable hit and run tactics.

Sunmack

I wasn’t saying we needed smaller ships. It was a tongue in cheek jibe at our penchant for building very large ships with serious capability gaps

Something different

Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification 🙂

Cam

Like destroyers with no ASW capabilty… Choppers not included. And OPVS with not enough weapons for supporting Britain if needed, and all our warships with no land atack missile capabilty, the lists Actually massive…

Cam

Yeah bigger platforms with far less weapons is the Royal navys way no adays sadly!

TrevorH

These are small littoral ships, yes put a good armament on them, but all they are fit for is coastal waters, not the South Atlantic, or the wide Pacific.

Duker

Yes . On its own the North Sea faces worse weather than the landlocked Black Sea, let alone the Atlantic and north of Iceland. For Ukraine a ‘deployment’ is an overnight away from base.

Cam

We wouldt deploy in the North Sea, we would deploy in the danger areas that we have current lather platforms, not in the oceans. Say, Gulf, caribean, eat Asia, ect ect

Cam

Our new globaly deployable OPVS are Far less armed but arguably far more capable hulls.

Michael Emm

Build for Ukraine, to be used against the UK interests

Wilhelm Beller

In what way do you mean?

X

comment image

A ‘Super Vita’ of the Hellenic Navy Roussen-class.

X

Nice little ships…..not sure what is wrong with the photo……..

Alexander Anderson

The way I see it is at the very least jobs will be opened up which is always a positive. I think that projects like this should be done for the RN in the small yards that build things like tugs and ferries which are around the size of the P2000 which are useful to have and need replacing soon (i think).

X

Yes. I would like to see Archer replaced with something like the RCN’s Orca class.

X

And an alternative design would be?

X

Childish down voting.

I live in your head rent free. Plenty of space there as its pretty empty……..

borg

i’ve Upvoted you 1 billion times but It’ll only record the one !

X

You can vote again the next day. And if you use a VPN too.

The site owners like their site being mocked. Who are we to to complain? 🙂

borg

Won’t let me X , sorry, I have tried. Looks like the sad item has won. Lol.

Jason Hartley

Why not lend the royal navy the money and let our navy have some badly needed extra ships !

Merlot

Given the levels of corruption and dire economic situation prevailing within Ukraine, the chances of seeing the £1.2bn being repaid within 10 years is remote.
Possibly more likely a NATO supported exercise to further tweek the Russian Bears tail I’m thinking.

Steve

My guess its just a political move rather than a military one.

Politicians can announce great new jobs thanks for the foreign orders for ships they have won, and then quietly write off the expenditure.

Last edited 4 months ago by Steve
Donaldson

They’ll get nicked by the Russians like their Gyurza-M artillery boats did back in 2018!!

Mark L

The Intellectual Property Rights for the Barzan class will be held by BAE as the successor to VT shipbuilding, so build is more likely to be at a BAE yard or at Cammell Laird as a BAE partner. As the ships date from the early 1990’s most of the design material will be on paper (if it still exists) and a lot of work will be required to digitise it.

Jamyhants

The design was carried out on CAD, but the main issue will be obsolecence of machinery and equipment, big redesign costs.

Steve

Can we lend ourselves some money to build some warships? Just a thought.

borg

A better way would be to collect Taxes from all the Billionaires Off Shore accounts. Legalised Tax evasion costs this country dear.

borg

Is It possible to downvote my own post here ? Well It might just save some other member the effort.

Silvio de Barros Pinheiro

Se houvesse gente honesta no governo ucraniano e se o povo ucraniano não fosse ignorante, não teriam de enfrentar a realidade de que não têm como enfrentar a Rússia. É como Taiwan comprando armas da casa grande, acreditando que pode enfrentar a China. São dois países que ganhariam muito se parassem de bancar os valentes com seus vizinhos.

X
<i>Honest people who are not governed by Ukrainians are houvesse or povo Ukrainians who are not ignorant, do not want to face the reality that they do not have how to face Russia. It's like Taiwan buying arms from a big house, proving that it can face China. There are two countries that will win a lot to stop banking with their vizinhos.</i>
andy reeves

need to build our own before the Ukraine

sparky42

Who is a coastal threat to the UK?

borg

Them Pesky Frenchies.

X

If the situation with the EU goes south then yes. But in terms of fishing disputes etc.

Andy

So these missile boats are $150m each? based an a class that weights 380 tons? Are these boats made of gold rather than steel?

sparky42

How much expensive equipment will be on them?

borg

About 100 million £’s worth.

Jamyhants

With a similar weapons fit you are talking more like $400m per ship

borg

No, But they do look to have lots of expensive Weapons, unlike our nice new 2000 ton Spud Gun carriers. ( Smirky Face )

Challenger

Great news if there’s any truth to this! About time HMG started promoting and nurturing UK industry.

As has already been stated surely as the Barzan class design is now owned by BAE either one of it’s yards would take on the work or it would have to be sub-contracted out through some sort of deal.

Looks increasingly likely that FSS will be built here too which if awarded to Team GB could give Cammell Laird lots of work.

There was talk of Appledore building Faroe Islands fishing boats a few months back (wonder what happened to that?) and it shouldn’t be forgotten that the ferry Scillonian lll is now over 40 years old and will soon need a replacement.

Interesting times and lots of opportunities ahead…..

AlexS

Does remain anyone from Vosper to have some know how? Because this will be a new project.

RichardIC

So are there any other sources for this story rather than a single article in the Ukranian media which doesn’t have any attributable quotes and mainly talks about the drawbacks of the proposal and how it probably isn’t a good idea?

It’s just bizarre.

Last edited 4 months ago by RichardIC
borg

OK, I’m bored now, Can you post another Pic/Topic please ? How about HMS Queen Elizabeth departing Portsmouth complete with her 6 Merlins, ready to embark all those lovely F35B’s. ( I know, Downvotes will be Incoming ! )

Phillip Johnson

Off topic but, start of the Defence Review savings?
:https://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/213448/uk-looks-to-reduce-order-for-boeing-e_7-aew-planes-as-costs-explode%3A-report.html
For the record, trying to get out of a contract with a US multi is a painful and generally expensive experience.

Ron

Not sure but I do think can the UK build a modern version of the Finnish Hamina class. A good little Fast attack missile boat, able to defend itself against air, submarine and ship attack. Possibly if we could get those built then the RN could also get some, very useful in some areas such as Gib, Cyprus, Oman etc.

Jonesy

What use would we have for a Hamina-class style FAC(M) in any of those locations?. I agree that the Finnish ship offers a good capability package for its size but, seriously, forward deployment, for our requirements, is the job of Type31 not a FAC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bubiyan

Its actually an interesting exercise evaluating the fitout of these ‘new-generation Barzan’ 56m hulls to make them less susceptible to a Bubiyan-style mauling.

John

Is anyone asking themselves – building ships with weapons for the Ukraine but defenseless OPC for the RN. Wow!

Jonesy

You’d really hope no one would be so infantile and Ill informed as to ask that really.

The OPVs being built only out of contractual obligation to the yard but, despite that, massively more useful to us than a dozen 56m FAC(M) would be.

Last edited 4 months ago by Jonesy