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ANDREW JOHN WILDE

Just exactly where will “the funds to build new research ships” come from ? This country cannot get three relatively cheap supply ships from the drawing board to service in 15 years so I think your new money will be long gone. Maybe two research ships could be built fairly cheaply if they are fitted for but not with most equipment as is common Royal Navy practise. Beautiful photo,s out today of Italian carrier complete with missiles and guns doing F35b trials!!

Cam

Britain has money, it’s just how we spend it, we have a huge economy even with all what’s happening. Even if we didn’t have the money For example We can borrow it with a very Low interest rate like we have been doing or sell bonds.These vessels are no where near say a single type 26 price, more opv price, but that’s BAE opv price lol.

And if that Italian ship has to use its turreted gun something’s gone seriously wrong, that’s what escort vessels are for. I would like Hms QE to be fitted with sea ram Though or even longer range Sea Ceptor, surely canisters won’t cost much to install as no cutting the deck ect would be needed. And has HMS QE had her 4 30mm cannons fitted yet?

Last edited 7 months ago by Cam
ANDREW JOHN WILDE

If the Italian ship has to use it ‘s guns then it has expended its 32x MBDA Aster 15 Mach 3.5 surface to air missiles which are carried in two pods stbd forward and port aft.

Cam

Yeah, I know, that’s what I meant somethings gone very wrong

Sunmack

I’d like to see Phalanx upgraded to Sea RAM on the 2 x QE’S, 2 x Albions and all RFA’s.

John

NEVER HAVE MORE WISE WORDS BEEN UTTERED. Why the RN cannot or will not see this is beyond me.

Cam

And it’s not like major work needs to be done as it uses same base as phalanx,

Duker

USN is only changing over 1 per Burke, so it must have some disadvantages. Apparently the Aegis system with SM-2 looks a bit higher and might miss very low level missiles. Sea-ceptor doesnt reach out as far as SM-2 but has the close in area sorted.

Cam

Yeah sea ram sounds good, sea ceptor sounds better, but I’ll go with the far cheaper sea ram.

Dogs Nads

SeaRAM will be more expensive than Sea Ceptor, with shorter range and is not as capable in all weather conditions.

Cam

I’m not sure about that, yes we already have Sea ceptor on our ships, but sea ram is plug and play like phalanx isn’t it?

RichardIC

The Prime Minister mentioned the Multi-Role Research Vessel during his speech on defence expenditure in November – and it’s not been heard from since.

Instead, however, around six weeks later, the First Sea Lord made reference to “Two new ocean surveillance ships to help is with out data gathering but also to help us protect critical national infrastructure and undersea cables.” He’s subsequently referred to them as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9-nzV-hjKA

So the question seems to be, are these two separate projects, or have embryonic plans for a Multi Role Research Vessel morphed in two Ocean Surveillance Ships?

I suspect it’s the latter. However, as mentioned, maybe we need to wait for the integrated review, although I suspect that will be light on detail.

X

We need a Scott replacement. We need a replacement for Diligence.

RichardIC

My understanding was the Ocean Surveillance Ships were intended as Scott replacements.

X

And does that mitigate that need for that hull? No.

We shall see what comes about. Scott is a very simple ship. It does a very specific job. It doesn’t need diluting with other functions.

Last edited 7 months ago by X
RichardIC

But there’s only one and it’s an ageing vessel.

X

Yes. And it needs replacing. Desperately.

Dogs Nads

If you wanted to replace Diligence the same sort of ship can be found very cheaply on the world market. Plenty of large oil rig supply vessels out there.

X

Yes. The RN is pushing SSN’s into the Indian Ocean; these complex platforms need engineering support. But there is no sign of Diligence being replaced. So fewer hulls, less support, and deployments further a field…..

Cam

Doesn’t serco have a Royal Navy ship engineering support contact, and they Have the ships to do it.

X

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_Northern_River

Diligence is 5 times the size. Plus other issues.

Rob

Northern River is an excellent ship for trials, training and exercises, and submarine rescue mothership. The Diligence role is different but a similar approach could be used.

Cam

Yeah I 5nought so, thanks Rob

Duker

Have they the ships ?
We provide and operate nearly 120 support vessels (from 100 to 25,000 tons) for both the UK Royal Navy and Royal Australian Navy, plus International Nuclear Services. We provide 99.8% on-time delivery of support vessel services to the Royal Navy.”
It would seem most of those are just harbour vessels, but not all
https://www.serco.com/eu/sector-expertise/defence/maritime-services

Rob

The Serco fleet has changed over the years with new ships brought in when needed. About to deliver and operate a 24,000t icebreaker / research and supply vessel for Australia so not just a port operator.

Cam

Gladly ships are more reliable these days, and I can see why they cut diligence With the huge cut in RN ships and submarines. And Private company’s can do the same job but far cheaper and we have teams globally to deploy at short notice if any of our ships run into problems, them we have our yank friends with a truly global fleet of bases and engineering ships And supply chain that we can use if really needed.

Cam

Actually how much did we even use diligence? Apart from training.

X

Underwater engineering………

http://www.hisutton.com/Ru_Arctic.html

Challenger

I’d think and hope we’d see 2 ships with the same basic design, but as the article suggests with 1 then tailored to replace Scott and other focusing on seabed operations as a very belated replacement for my namesake Challenger!

The need to eventually replace Protector and the likelihood of increased activity in the Arctic should definitely be taken into consideration.

Cam

We definitely need a Protector replacement, and maybe a ship With a hangar again like we did have wit two ice protected lynx choppers, hopefully a replacement could be equipped with two ice protected wildcats would be nice.

Armchair Canadian

Oh you want a truly expensive ship then with less capacity. Lol question what more expensive than UK shipbuilding? Canadian shipbuilding.

Cam

It just sucks how we are replacing two vessels with one, RRS sir david..and even then she doesn’t have a huge ice class, the ozzies new ship has a higher class… Britain has a huge territory in the antarctic 7x or more bigger than Britain!! We need more than two polar ships in our Whole fleet.

It would be nice if Scott was replaced with two multi role vessels further growing the RN, And its not like HMS Scott is a money pit! She actually makes the MOD money Selling her Data and know how!..

Last edited 7 months ago by Cam
X

My favourite is the JMSDF Shirase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_icebreaker_Shirase_(AGB-5003)
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Scott was built to undertake one role. A multipurpose hull wouldn’t do the job.

Deep32

Totally agree that Scott/Diligence need replacing, the conundrum would appear to be where and when to build them, given that FSSS has to be our top priority! Would like to think that they would be built in the UK, but we only have a finite amount of yards for this, not entirely sure if FLSS will ever get going, but if so, things are starting to back up from a UK construction perspective!!

X

We could just buy something to replace Diligence.

As for Scott I haven’t a clue…….. 🙂
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borg

Instow, on the other side of the Torridge.

Cam

Hi said Appledore couldn’t build big ships…

X

I was being a bit naughty posting a picture of Appledore. 🙂

It terms of length I think Scott was as big as they could go. Though Scott displaces more she is lot shorter than T45 and T26, and several meters shorter than T31. But is just as wide in the beam and has a deeper draught.

Cam

Not atall X, lots of people didn’t know Appledore could build larger ships. But I didn’t realise Scott was smaller in length that a type 45… just goes to show Weight isn’t everything and our new frigates are pretty dam big…

Last edited 7 months ago by Cam
X

It tends to be draught most forget. They see the structure above the water and forget all the rest below. Scott is about a whole metre deeper than T45…..
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borg

They have built a few Big’ish Ships over the years but there are issues.

Cam

Yeah like running out of work Sadly…

borg

Been like it for Decades……

Cam

How about Liverpool, they have experience now.

Deep32

Yes, entirely readable, but I think FSSS takes priority on build, there are probably enough yards to do all the work, it’s more a case of cash flow.

Cam

It’s a huge beast, and carry’s three choppers… and they have 4…. But they have a bigger economy so can afford more!

X

yes! 🙂

Cam

And 4x more destroyers… and twice as many atack subs. And larger Army, Air Force and Navy…. Jesus Japan used to copy British designs fir loads especially their navy, they even still have British type uniforms… How things have changed.

Last edited 7 months ago by Cam
X

The reason why the JMSDF eat curry is because of us Brits. They have some very interesting ships in both their ‘navy’ and their ‘coastguard’.
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Duker

Yes, now its considered a ‘national dish’ – like UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_curry

Darren.

Curry is good stuff.

Duker

 But they have a bigger economy so can afford more!”

Part of that is right, but they only spend 0.95% of GDP on defence and the ‘limit’ is 1%. By counting some other ‘military related items’ , it might be closer to 1.3%

Cam

Shows how huge their economy is.

Duker

Not too different per capita than UK. Population is 126 mill and falling while UK is 68 mill and will reach 70 mill by 2030.
Really shows how they get their procurement in order and progress steadily through it. (UK has nuclear SLBM and attack subs which I reckon alone costs 0.3-0.5% of GDP.)
UK could work a lot more with Japan in the procurement area, a wasted opportunity not to get on board earlier with japans 4 engine P-1 , which was more suited to RAF mission and could have sold them other Nato nations etc. A future fighter should be a JV with Japan and others

Darren.

Yeah, but who knows what the UK population really is, and how many UK born who are abroad too?

RobB

Aussie breaker is even bigger, (with smaller economy):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSV_Nuyina

Darren.

Yes by about 5000 tons to Boaty, but it is over one billion quid and built in Romania. It may have a slightly higher ice breaking capability too, but for that price? I am now thinking that our idea of being unable to compete with any Country in building certain types of ships is incorrect.

Last edited 7 months ago by Darren Riche-Webber
Darren.

That ship would cost around 290 Billion Pounds in todays money at an exchange rate that was good for Japan in 2008. Todays rate would mean it cost around 358 million Pounds. The ship has a higher Polar class by about a half a meter but we think the far east can build for half the price along with other myths. But this is not true, in many cases, they are more expensive.

Phillip Johnson

Interesting seabed technology article Royal Navy tests software to rapidly map the seabed – Naval Today
But, you would have to wonder how shallow the sea floor would need to be to make this technology effective

Duker

Its a lower standard than the current methods of seabed mapping. However some areas with highly variable sea floor which changes after each storm this can produce better results.
Its highly technical but this study looked into some results around Jersey in the Channel Islands
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/211555994.pdf

Andy

For me, the most interesting nugget in this post was that the French research ship is called the Pourquoi Pas?. What a marvelously idiosyncratic name, the perfect response to those who ask what is the point in abstract knowledge.

Duker

They have a history with that name
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pourquoi-Pas_(1908)
Jean Baptiste Charcot was a sort of Scott or Shackleton figure

Michael

It seems ironic that the subject of purchasing new research vessels is taking place at a time when the UK is struggling to keep a viable battle fleet.

Darren.

What looks apparent to me is that the 150 million pound price for the RSS Sir David Attenborough was very low, certainly looked that at the time, even if touted as the UK biggest or highest price commercial ship. The contruction time to full service was ambitious too. Even the later 200 figure when compared to other similar RV ice breaking ships. Even if the eventual cost was around 230+ million pounds or more, it looks to be cheaper per ton than all the others. Australia’s latest Romanian (Damen)built ship, the Chilian ship, the Canadian ships and the Japanese ship. Cruise mapper give you a list of others too. The other apparent thing to me is that looking at dozens of different ship types and their costs, looking at the GBP v Yen or USD, AUSD, EURO etc exchanges back then (ships ordered foreign and UK) to now with inflation, the UK comes out pretty well in terms for shipbuilding.

ANDREW JOHN WILDE

To be built in Scotland I presume.