Just in time for the operational Carrier Strike deployment in May, the first Merlin Mk2 aircraft equipped with a Crowsnest kit has gone into service with the RN.
The Crowsnest project has not gone smoothly and there was some doubt as to whether any aircraft would be ready by May. The first radar flight trial was made in February 2020 and under growing pressure, the contractors, Lockheed Martin, Leonardo and Thales, allocated extra resources to the project. The three Crowsnest Merlins that will accompany the CSG21 deployment will carry pre-IOC sets which are not fully certified, although this should give at least basic capability – any limitations are obviously classified. Full IOC is scheduled for September 2021, with FOC in May 2023.
Each helicopter has a crew of three, two observers who are the mission and tactical specialists and one pilot. When at altitude, they extend the radar horizon to give early warning of air or surface threats. The operators are nicknamed ‘baggers’ and provide airborne surveillance and control (ASaC) for other aircraft in the carrier’s strike group, including the F-35s.
The distinctive-looking ‘bag’ containing the radar is attached by an arm to the fuselage and after take-off, is lowered to the vertical position. When not in use the radome is is lifted 90º to the horizontal position and the bag deflated.
Training by aircrews to use the new system has been underway since the autumn and the first aircraft to have the kit installed began operational training from RNAS Culdrose this month. Synthetic training has already doubtless played an important part in preparation but there is limited time available to iron out teething problems and work up the aircrews. The carrier strike group will participate in Exercise Strike Warrior in early May before the deployment and this will provide an important opportunity for both aircrew and controllers on the ships to rehearse together.
All 30 of the RN’s Merlin Mk2s will ultimately be modified to accept one of the 10 kits being procured and it is intended that aircraft can be re-rolled between ASW and ASaC as needed. 849 Naval Air Squadron which previously operated the ASaC Sea King was supposed to transition to Crowsnest but in April 2020, was disbanded and the Crowsnest capability has been absorbed into 820 Squadron.
Installation
In a war situation would not these helicopters with their radar systems be a week link
In what way? The Falklands war proved the need for AEW and 2 Sea Kings were rapidly converted, traveling south just after the war in HMS Illustrious. They were so successful 849NAS was stood up and had 2 flights operational until the Sea King was retired a few years back. (i think the flights became 854 & 857 for a time)
How so? Crowsnest is probably the most important system the carriers will, um, carry.
More money should have been thrown at the system by far.
It is only weak link in a sense that wasn’t done.
Indeed, we opted for the simpler and cheapest option available instead of going with the far superior system offered by Lockheed Martin.
It is more important than the bomb truck. It’s the keystone to any task group.
In what way was the Lockheed system superior? It was never demonstrated, they only flew the empty pods to show sufficient cooling.
Nothing is 100% foolproof but in a war situation a layered defensive approach around the carrier-group with F35’s on CAP further out and a missile umbrella further in would make it incredibly difficult for an enemy to take them out.
It’s another example where an 80% capability is much, much, better than nothing at all. The project has run badly and it’s late, but in terms of what’s being delivered it’s probably the best we are realistically able to get. E2D is obviously better, but it’s not really feasible for RN. And as others have noted, with F35 sensors, and possibly drones in future, there are other ways to achieve equivalent coverage.
It is just a shame that the Searchwater on the Crowsnest is already legacy technology. The original Searchwater dates back to the 1960s! Todays offering is a little more powerful with better processing and a funky front end but it is at heart old technology. We were offered an AEW version of the F35 radar with AESA and full multimode operation. However we opted for ‘new obsolescent’ technology… was it jobs for the boys or just the lowest bidder – who can tell. The sooner we develop a replacement the better. Perhaps we could use a AEW version of the Radar 2 that will go on the Typhoon. That would be SO much better.
As folk have pointed out AEW is a vital part of the CSG defence, it is just mad it was not given more funding so we had to get such a system….
Well at least we have something even if the core technology is looking to clam its bus pass….
I think overall crowsnest is a stop gap.
Yes it’s done a bit on the cheap, but it’s not worth wasting money, on something gold plated, when there are many new possibilities not so far out on the horizon. It’s a case of holding on, until things like networking and unmanned systems, can provide an equivalent or better solution.
Without being privy to the decision making process, it’s impossible to say if we got here by accident or by design. But it’s where we are none the less.
P.S. the Chinese were sold radars from the cancelled Nimrod AEW3. This technology was used to develop the line of radars leading to the current Searchwater. This means that the Chinese have an intimate understanding of the original core system. They have probably worked out how to jam it already….
Who says that. Once QE sails between Taiwan and the Chines coast they will have their signals planes mapping all the ships radars
I find that very hard to believe. Besides, I doubt we are planning to start a war with China.
I do not think we are planning to start a war with anyone. However conflict with China is not impossible. A quick scenario… China decides to invade Taiwan – the USA gets pulled into her defence and calls on her closest partner to help. The UK offers a carrier group. Thus we are in a shooting war with China. Not too unlikely. All we have for AEW is a repackaged Searchwater 2000 that the Chines have a good knowledge of tganks to their previous purchases.
As I say the quicker we can swap out Searchwater for a modern radar the better. Then we can start thinking of getting a VTOL platform to take a bigger sensor package higher. A V22 variant with a modified AEW Radar 2 would be a vast improvement and be able to spot the latest threats at decent ranges.
I completely agree. V22 for AEW and COD would have been ideal given commonality with the USMC/USN. I am also hoping against hope that we’ll get a second trache of 48 F35B for 7 frontline sqaudrons and 12 for operational conversion.
Yes, they were sold the radars.
The actual electronics, as opposed to the concepts, will now be very different.
That was a very long time ago: things move very fast in digital electronics!
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/aew-prc.htm
“ Britain’s Marconi apparently sold at least one example of its Argus radar from the cancelled Nimrod AEW program, which China placed on a modified Russian Ilyushin Il-76 transport. Then in the mid-1990s Britain’s Racal Co. sold six of its Skymaster lightweight naval airborne early warning (AEW) radar, which still fly on the PLA Navy Air Force’s Y-8J aircraft. Ostensibly sold to help China “combat piracy,” by 1999 the Y-8J was observed in exercises providing long-distance cuing for ship-launched anti-ship missiles….”
Honestly, this just shows the continued decline of the Royal Navy. Just looking for another cheap solution. Instead of what is really needed
That said, a good compromise would be the Osprey with the Vigilance System. Which, could use the same APG-81 AESA Radars from the F-35B’s. This is also a plug a play system. So, the Royal Navy could use a pool of aircraft. Which, is needed anyways. As they need Ospreys for the COD and Tanker Roles too! https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2011-11-18/lockheed-martin-offers-bolt-multi-mission-sensor-system
Nothing is plug and play with regards to weapon and sensor systems. Whoever came up with that bit of bollocks needs to try integrating said “Plug and Play” systems into existing vessels and aircraft.
Plug and Play is a 5v USB plug. All military systems are just a little but more complex than that.
Careful. They lover their modularity and mission bays here.
WRT to plug-and-play I think you are right. That needs open international cooperation and complete standardisation of interfaces – the proprietory, national level, secretive development of military systems tends to work against that.
That said, there is nothing preventing systems being built that can be moved between platforms. Danish did it with Stanflex? Not true plug and play though; perhaps a better expression would be pre-integrated? Of course the danger here is, politicians and other key decision makers won’t understand the subtle but fundamental difference between the two.
You mean Plug and Pray?
Exactly
Ospreys are difficult to operate and maintenance heavy. V247 Valor would be better for the RN.
V280 Valor is the manned one they are trying to sell to the US Army, V247 Vigilant the unmanned one aimed at the USMC. I like the look of the marinized version of the Valor with the inverted tail, and the stats look good too, but it will need a lot work to make it into something operational. I think the Vigilant would be the right way to go for AEW, but it may be too small to provide mission tanking. It would be nice if we had one tiltrotor for both jobs.
It looks like the RN is going down the route of fixed wing drones and catapults instead.
The f35 based radar was only considered by Lockheed Martin, in the end their losing proposal was based on 2 Elta designed aesa radars hung on either side of the merlin but it lost out mainly based on the risk and limited timespan required.
So much better, and also so much more expensive. like, a lot more expensive.
The modified APG-81 offer was reported to have been dropped & replaced by an Elta radar.
Surely this role is a much better fit for a drone, relaying the raw data straight to all nearby ships? Fuel use would be vastly lower and endurance much greater.
How so? Why do many here always think drones will be smaller and cheaper? You would only be swapping the crew out and then adding more kit in their place.
Correct, it is for any persistent surveillance task – we just need to build one to operate from a carrier first! Next gen will be a UAV after the Merlin OSD (2030+)
My concern here again, is the security of the data signal, which can be jammed. At least with a manned system, information can be radioed though on other channels.
Which can’t also be jammed? They are all radio signals at the end of the day. The way you avoid jamming is the same for all of them.
“relaying the raw data straight down to the ships”
Trivial problem in your mind no doubt, but in the real world.
The question that will always elicit a groan from any engineer:
‘couldn’t you just…?’
And people wonder why engineers are cynical!
Remember that direct signals can be jammed.
Yes signals can be jammed, but that applies to communications from the Crowsnest helicopters as well. There are technologies like frequency hopping and so on to avoid jamming, but if it is broad-spectrum enough to stop the use of frequency-hopping for the radar signal they will stop anything coming down from Crowsnest as well. Basically if Crowsnest is viable and the necessary technology is present, drones would be viable as well.
“The three Crowsnest Merlins that will accompany the CGS21 deployment.”. In this sentence why is it CGS21 instead of CSG21, I have seen these used somewhat interchangably yet I have assumed it was “Carier Strike Group”?
Typo!
Thanks
we Clearly knew what it meant, why does everyone always Fudging spell check on the Net… And yes Fudging replaces another word I would like to use.
I was just curious, as in several other places it has been spelt “CGS” and I wanted to know if this had a different meaning.
Ok sorry mate 👍
I think sometimes they they use CG as a prefix to then differentiate their current deployment mode.
CGS Carrier Group – Strike
CGLM Carrier Group – Littoral Maneuver
CGPUIP Carrier Group – Pi**ed up in local Port
etc …. ✌️
It is interesting seeing the cooling system and the main power amplifier in the second photo down.
The fluid reservoir (black box with handles on it) and hydraulic coolant pump (with the dials on it) look like they were recycled from the previous version!
Also interesting to see how small the high power amplifier (black lump top front with the give-away HV stickers on it) is compared to the cooling system.
Isnt this taking ‘for but not with’ to new heights?
Modify 30 choppers but only have 10 kits. Wont it in reality mean 10 will be modified during overhaul at base and 3 will used each serious deployment and will keep the equipment until another major overhaul.
The idea of interchangeable with all Merlins as required wont be workable…shortages of personnel etc etc
Helicopters need a lot more routine maintenance and overhaul than fixed wing aircraft, so I guess the idea is to maximize availability. IIRC the Crowsnest kits can be swapped between airframes in just a few hours, could even be done on board the carrier.
Really? In just a few hours, the kit looks pretty dam hearty…
I may be exaggerating a little but I believe that’s the idea. The airframes will all be pre-wired, so everything is in place, ready for the kit to be fitted.
https://www.navylookout.com/crowsnest-the-strike-carriers-eye-in-the-sky/
From the article:
‘Theoretically, the Crowsnest kit can then be installed in any Merlin in […] around 24 hours, either ashore at RNAS Culdrose or in […] the QE class aircraft carriers’
Ah right
It will take a minimum of 24 hours to swap from merlin MkII to CROWSNEST, but thats in facttory conditions. Put it on a Carrier and you’ll be looking at 5 days to a week.
Great article as always. Why only 3 crew? Surely these missions will be of long duration and 4 would allow for rest.
A real shame the defence review didn’t add some much needed additional Merlins to cover off this role properly.
Absolutely! Pilots can get incapacitated and an expensive asset like this should have 2 pilots
Surprised me too. Are they short of pilots perhaps?
Surprised many, there is no excuse for not having a co-pilot in these birds.
Is it possibly to do with endurance? Can’t imagine the weight of a fourth crew member would make much difference to the fuel consumption though. Seems risky having just one pilot.
It’s probably a money thing…
30 Merlin sized helicopters is just not enough for their uses. Alas, too often MOD fails to order at the right time – more Merlins ordered 10 years ago would have placed osdin line with the new American helicopters coming online, Challenger upgrade to smooth bore 10 years ago would have meant replacement of Chally2 just as nato allies are agreeing on next gen gun size – rather than the risk with upgrading now that allies will move on just as we complete upgrade
As for Crowsnest, its just good to get something in place ahead of far east deployment – but only 10 sets on 30 airframes is a worry. Would rather have had a fixed wing asset (Altitude, range, crew comfort), but that is currently out of question following the decision that although MOD stated carriers were adaptable, them and developers didnt actually bother doing anything about it.
Hopefully drones or low orbit (both with data link) will come on stream soon.
We shouldn’t even upgrade chally 2s (even Though I do love them black knights) but We should keep them as are and get involved in the next Euro tank…
I agree, too little, too late and not enough of them to be useful. The only real value perhaps is as a learning exercise for the next generation.
Yeah, have a few experimental tanks. But what’s the dam point with so few…Even if they were “super amazing beast “ tanks there just isn’t enough for anything but a token force. Is that what we need or want?
Yes.
Even as an experiment, there is an argument for maintaining a certain mass – albeit a token one.
Capabilities are very, very difficult to regenerate once gone – as we have seen with carrier strike. So perhaps it’s about maintaining a small base of key skills and procedures as much as the equipment itself.
Seems to me that MOD are not sure about the future of tank warfare so want to keep the option open, without committing too much expense. Bit like most things at the moment!
Makes sense to keep the Army in the heavy armour game.
Only 10 sets is a problem?? How many AEW aircraft do you think carriers need for goodness sake.
Well Merlins endurance is 5 hours and that’s 5 takeoffs a day for 24hr coverage, so we need half the crowsnest fleet or more aboard just to give crews and the choppers a break and if sh!t hits the fan and we need them constantly airborne we might scrape by.
Plus the ability to have two groups of AEW cabs at sea would be helpful.
They probably went for 10 sets on exactly that basis.
It’s more than enough for a single CSG and in the unlikely event we get into a situation needing to send both carriers (without USN support) then all bets are off anyway.
Shortage of Merlin is the bigger issue IMO.
And there’s always around 5 Merlins in maintenance so leaves 25 for all operations… what a joke, I hope we do upgrade the last 8 Merlins in storage to hm2 standard as we need them.
If this is such a joke could you advise who has more?
We did.
They don’t need more than 10 sets, the rest of the 30 in the fleet are doing ASW…. the reason for fitting all for is so they can switch aircraft between squadrons if it becomes necessary.
There’s always five in maintenance so 25 to choose from.
Good news it will be deploying with the CSG this year but it’s still staggering how long it’s going to take to reach full operating capability. I remember reading the decision to put Crowsnest onto existing Merlin’s around 2009!
It’s a shame 849 NAS was dissolved as i’d have thought AEW requires specialist skills and training that would be best delivered in a focused unit even if it’s sharing the wider Merlin fleet.
Is it just a money problem that these assets take so long?
In this instance, for once it isn’t. The contractor screwed up.
Thanks Sonik nice to know.
Thales UK to be precise.
Ah right, it’s Frenchies fault, thought so. Actually Is Thales uk a British company?
LM are involved too. Not sure there is such thing as a ‘french’ or ‘british’ defence company these days, they all seem to be multinational.
LM provide the mission system, Thales provide the Tactical data Link Capability.
Its what used to be Racal which Thales bought in 2000
It’s actually kind of embarrassing…. And why deflate and inflate when it really doesn’t make much difference in size? Surely those inflated deflate systems cost more money to inspect, replace, service.
Probably due to reducing the windage and therefore the turning moment in straight flight?
The cost of a compressor and regulator with a couple of solenoid valves is going to be peanuts.
I don’t think they would do it if it wasn’t necessary.
Maybe due to weight as well. The dome is attached well over one side so it must have a significant effect on COG. Inflatable bag is much lighter than an equivalent rigid dome, is less of a barrier to the sensors, and positive air pressure keeps out moisture and contamination, even if the bag gets damaged.
“Peanuts” I bet it cost the Mod billions 😆
Cheers
The Italian AEW variant doesn’t work and isn’t used.
Sources Ronald 5. Sources……….
And the photo was answer about form. To keep up Ron5. Nurse will be a long soon to take the interweb off you for another week.
Is there no end to your criticisms based on ignorance??? Anyone would be forgiven for thinking you a troll.
No Ron5 trolling is your job. And you are neither entertaining or good at it.
Cheers Ron, and no I don’t live under a Bridge. And it’s called FREE SPEECH and I try to learn new things that I’m interested in on here.
As an onlooker and occasional contributor here….. I would suggest taking a long look in your Trolling Mirror Ron mate. You have a long and incredibly detailed history of trolling those who dare to offer different views, Facts and Truths. At least X has an abundance of the three latter traits.
It’s perfectly ok to disagree, that’s healthy debate. But feeding trolls with a response only encourages them surely?
It’s been a long running issue, which was for a time linked to the voting option until it was removed in the refresh a few months ago. The trolling sort of quietened down for a while after that, but, appears to be gaining momentum again!!
It makes for some interesting comments if nothing else!!!
Yes, Ron 5 stopped posting for a while but has returned now sans the down vote option.
Yes, you are correct….. I must learn not to respond now that the Trolls have ceased to post stupid stuff on here….. my bad.
To be fair it’s not always a bad thing to call out blatant misinformation. As Deep32 said it sometimes makes things interesting!
A few sentences and / or a couple sources would help.
Just barbed comments with a heavy hint of hubris don’t really make for good conversation.
And he doesn’t just do it here or UK Defence Review I have seen him other places too.
Can I ask does the crows nest get monitored internally in the merlin or is it transmitted to the carrier? Do the have the ability to bounce and share with assets?
Also is there a reason we don’t just use a basic drone like the “fire” drone I think it’s called on some American destroyers? Or one of the many rotor wing drones about or even a tethered drone that could sit above carrier indefinitely with cable link? Surely would have been cheaper and just as good or better
Yes good point
Fire Scout. You wouldnt want it operating directly above as it sits at a high altitude and might show the carriers location, but even 15-30nm away is good
I’ve always thought about a radar drone, That hovers a mile or so above a frigate or destroyer Giving a huge radar advantage.
Exactly what a Crowsnest is built to do.
Really Ron5 I dint know that!., And I’m on about something like the ball on Sampson Radar taking off and hovering well above the vessel, maybe attached by wire to provide power and data…
The radar returns are interpreted by onboard observers who act as fighter controllers. Old term but descriptive. Condensed information (location, speed, direction) about targets are transmitted to other ships in the group via standard NATO data links.
Does the Italian Navy plan to introduce this system or do they already have a solution?
I think Italy are developing something similar but based on a home grown radar. Perhaps a collaboration opportunity missed especially given UK/IT links in both helicopters and radar. But always easy to judge in hindsight.
No. I posted a pic of the Italian system the other day. I think they are happy with what they have.
Most decidedly not. The Italian system does not work.
Once again Ron5 the Sourcelss rebuts someone else’s comment with no sources.
does it not ?
And we await for a source or explanation yet again from Ron5.
Ron5 is correct, The Italian AEW(modified anti ship radar of normal Italian AW-101) was taken out and the helis modified to other missions. One of the reasons was the height limit of antenna below the belly but there were several other issues). Basically they wanted to do it on the cheap and failed.
Thank you. Now why couldn’t have Ron5 thrown a few lines together like that?
We are doing it on the cheap and are only just about managing a no score draw.
Why only 1 pilot?
Funny enough, quite a few Airframes only have one pilot.
Possibly to save weight thus gain endurance! Only a guess mind..
Why not?
Well survivability is a huge part… If one pilots injured in battle or is taken Ill the other can take over, there should always be two pilots when the aircrafts loaded with people anyway Merlins take 35 at a push…well not the ASW version obviously.
I am sure the “observer” could just about land it…..
I know this might be a Stupid question, but the Radome already on the merlin, how good is that? and can’t they combine the two into one?
That’s not a stupid question, the airframes own radar points forward (Vs down for the bag) but I guess like you hinted it would depend on the quality of the array if that can add anything useful to the range.
Cheers Sonik
I have post two pictures of the Italian AEW Merling. It is achievable.
Yeah that was interesting to see. Wonder why RN didn’t go with similar. Already had the bag system from seaking, so cheaper?
I think so. Integrating things can be difficult.
This turned up on the MROSS Royal Navy to get new multi-role ocean surveillance ship – Naval Today Crew of 15? Sounds like a small seabed support vessel from the oil industry..
The crowsnest chopper could do with a new paint job, it looks like crap, it looks worn out to be fair…
A lot of our kit looks the same, just take a look at the two carriers.
The wildcats mainly always look good though. Nick some of their paint… And why all the different shades of grey on the carriers deck looks like crap too lol, I know heat paint was put in some parts but there’s 10 different colours .
Ship husbandry is low priority now it seems. These days young sailors don’t join to chip and paint. There always seems to be a discussion over whether sailors should even do their own cleaning now.
AN AESA radar would have been the best solution, but the MOD decided they wanted the cheapest option with the least risk and earliest delivery date. Not a bad idea but that did not work as there have been delays, damage to a loaned out Merlin and I expect cost over runs.
I find it incredible how much equipment is needed for the radar inside the Merlin and I haven’t seen the operator consoles yet. I think it would be a huge task to swap between helicopters. Why didn’t they do permanent fit in the Mk1’s that are in storage.