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David MacDonald

So FOC for the F35 has been delayed until 2028. How about for the Typhoon?  

Tinman

2030

Simon

What is the theoretical max load out on the F35b Inc internal bays?

Sailorboy

8 in the bays plus 2 Meteor
The external launcher is a triple, so x6 external hard points is 18 more.
Max loadout 26 missiles plus 2 Meteor, assuming all hard points can carry the launcher.

Paul

“The external launcher is a triple, so x6 external hard points”

What launch rack is the UK using for SPEAR 3? The only rough analog the US currently has for the SPEAR 3 is the unpowered SDBII (admittedly far less range), which seems to have a very similar footprint. I think the US is using 4-place BRU-61 racks for F-35 SDBII, Internal integration first, then external.

Sailorboy

MBDA imagery shows a tripe rack similar to Brimstone on Typhoon, which I assume would also be used for F35 external.
The internal launcher is a 2×2 flat quad pack to fit in the very flat F35B bay.

Sailorboy

*Triple
Equally, there are also official images of Typhoon using the quad rack from F35 and these seem to have replaced the triple rack on the MBDA webpage.

Rudeboy

If, and its a big if, Spear is ever qualified for external release from F-35 its more likely to use the same 4 round BRU-61 that is carried internally for ease of integration.

But I’ve never seen any plans for it to be integrated externally…for the UK it appears we’ll be using PWIV only from the inner and mid pylon only for the foreseeable, at least until external tanks arrive…if they ever do.

Lord Baddlesmere

The limiting factor will be the F35 program slippage with TR3 only delivering training aircraft and being necessary as the backbone to Block 4 deliveries which will allow newer weapons, sensors, systems to be integrated. Then of course we will be at the back of the queue after AIM260, JSM, LRSM, HARM, JASSM, JASSM-ER, JAGM, Hellfire etc. SO anyone that believes Meteor would be integrated before AIM260 is living in cloud cuckoo land.
What this means for Block 4 deliveries is anyones guess, but expect further program delays. UK weapons integration ? 2032?

Nigel Collins

IOC/FOC? We still do not have a compilation date for TR3, let alone Block 4, and we have not received confirmation that it will be installed on our Typhoon fleet as far as I can see, or has this position changed?

It’s not expected that the SPEAR 3 cruise missile will be integrated into the Eurofighter Typhoon, though it has been used for testing purposes. Instead, the SPEAR 3 will be integrated into the F-35 Lightning’s Block 4 software package. The F-35B will be able to carry up to eight SPEAR missiles at a time. 

The SPEAR 3 is a small, air-launched cruise missile that can be used against a variety of targets, including:

Air defense units
Ballistic missile launchers
Fast-moving vehicles
Main battle tanks
Naval vessels
Armored personnel carriers 

The SPEAR 3 is designed to destroy ground-based air defences, allowing pilots to fly and fight with a reduced risk of being shot down.”

LINK
A more in-depth look at Spear 3 can be found via this link.
comment image

Rudeboy

FYI Spear hasn’t been confirmed yet for Typhoon….

But….Spain has already ordered Spear Ground Support Equipment for their Typhoon fleet…and Germany has clearly expressed an interest for Typhoon integration so its definitely coming at some point in the near future..

Nigel Collins

And lest we forget the core engine upgrade required to power Block 4 which is currently scheduled for year 2029. IOC/FOC?
comment image

Joe16

This is the ice berg of the F-35 programme as far as I can tell and my primary concern. no matter if the TR-3 upgrade gets done, no matter if the Block IV software gets done; all those new components and code will just be sitting in an airframe that they can’t fire up because the normal/current F-35 engine can’t produce the power required to run them all without over heating (as far as I understand it). And the engine thing is going to drag on, in my opinion, unless the US government wade in and give P&W and GE a stern talking to.
Personally, I think that every weapon that can operate on Block III software should be shunted there (I expect that will include Meteor and Spear 3), because they’ll be obsolete before they get an engine into mass production the way things are going…

Nigel Collins

Exactly Joe 16, and one example of this is!

“Japan is developing a new air-to-air missile to replace the European Meteor missile. The new missile is part of the Global Combat Air Program (GCAP), a multinational initiative led by the UK, Japan, and Italy. The missile is expected to be deployed by 2035. 

The new missile is intended to be a more cost-effective alternative to the Meteor missile. Japan aims to use domestically developed missiles for its new fighter jets. 

The UK is also evaluating mid-life options for the Meteor missile. The UK and its five other Meteor partner countries are expected to make a decision on the way forward by the end of 2024.

Potential options include: Equipping the missile with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) seeker

Improving the propulsion system

Integrating a Global Positioning System (GPS) unit for a ground-attack capability 

The lack of funding for the Meteor missile’s mid-life upgrade could impact the UK’s air defense capabilities.”
comment image

Last edited 22 days ago by Nigel Collins
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Joe 16 and Nigel

I am afraid I really do not understand why the F35’s long-planned engine upgrade could very seriously delay planes Block 4 weapons intergration

The planes weapons intergation should only need the very low voltage electrical systems / circuits: which should not need any of the extra propulsion power.

Accordigly, can I ask if either of you have seen any “offical source” for this claim (ie a statement from MOD, Lockheed, or US DoD etc).

If you have seen something, then it would be very useful if one of you could post it here.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Sean

The F35 doesn’t NEED an engine upgrade to operate Block 4, or the existing onboard systems. But the increased demands will push the engine further outside its original design parameters, which long-term will reduce its lifespan. So the upgrade will ensure engine lifespan is not further shortened by the demands of Block 4.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/pratt-whitney-mature-f-35-engine-core-upgrade/

Last edited 21 days ago by Sean
Nigel Collins

Hello Peter, my point initally was to point out the scheduled timeline for the engine upgrade which may well slip and its final entry into service date. Also this might help explain the reasons for the required engine update for the F-35.

Cheers.

“The ECU is needed, Pentagon officials say, in large part to head off power and cooling concerns on the F-35. The current F135 engine is already overtaxed by cooling demands and a suite of forthcoming upgrades known as Block 4 is expected to turn the temperature higher. The engine upgrade is planned to restore engine life that has been lost to heating issues and fully enable Block 4 capabilities, while a seperate improvement to the fighter’s cooling system is geared at facilitating features beyond Block 4″

Nigel Collins

Given the constant delays to TR3/BLOCK 4, I’m sure you can see my concerns!

1 Oct 2024
“The company has previously said it is targeting a service entry date of 2029 for the improved engine core, which is compatible will all three F-35 variants. The goal of the ECU programme is to improve the capacity of the F-35’s existing single engine to provide electrical power and cooling to onboard systems.

“The US Department of Defense (DoD) is upgrading the F-35 stealth fighter’s engine with the Engine Core Upgrade (ECU): 

PurposeThe ECU will restore engine life and prevent degradation for all three F-35 variants. It will also enable the Block 4 capabilities of the F-35, which are expected to increase the temperature of the engine. ContractorThe DoD awarded a $1.3 billion contract to Pratt & Whitney to continue development of the ECU. Pratt & Whitney is targeting 2029 for the delivery of the upgraded engines. CompatibilityThe ECU will be compatible with all three F-35 variants and can be installed on the assembly line or at a maintenance depot. Decision-makingThe DoD chose to upgrade the current engine instead of replacing it with a new one. The new engine would have been too expensive and wouldn’t have been compatible with all three variants. Design reviewThe ECU passed a preliminary design review in July 2024.”

Last edited 21 days ago by Nigel Collins
Duker

Yes. The previous TR2 upgrade for the multiple processors around 2017 required a power dissipation/cooling of 4.5kW

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

NIgel and Sean

Many thanks, to both of you, for your comments and also for attaching the vaious links

Very useful stuff.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Nigel Collins

You’re welcome!

Challenger

Having no control over weapons integration is a big problem that counts against the ‘just buy American’ brigade.

AlexS

Indeed and frankly this Block 4 delay is unacceptable.

Sunmack

If we’d bought American missiles it would be less of an issue. A missile used by only 48 aircraft is never going to be top of the integration priority list compared to missiles that will be carried by the hundreds of F35’s in service with multiple customers

Duker

The integration is across all the variants of F-35 and not just the B version
Italy and South Korea are going to be customers , and Germany is a strong contender
All have F-35 delivered or on order.

Sean

Except the American’s are just as frustrated by the Block 4 delay as there are American weapons that require it too. Block 4 was due to add compatibility for over 70 weapons, though this included Turkish weapons and they’ve been since thrown out if the programme.

Duker

European Meteor was supposed to be done in Block 3, but thats now pushed in B.4

Sean

No it wasn’t.

Duker

My mistake. That was the CAMM based Asraam, which was done.

Sean

It’s a claim you’ve made previously and been corrected about…

Georgie

He prefers to lecture rather than be taught. It’s staggering the amount of inaccurate nonsense he posts here 24/7…. at least the other resident bore has done the decent thing and removed himself from any further embarrassment. Should have kept to Zoo keeping in the first place.

Sean

To be fair, there’s the occasional nugget of factually accurate amongst all the stuff he posts… but any good propagandist knows, you mix in a little truth into your disinformation in order to increase its credibility…

Duker

So say the landed gentry/ Ministers Spad

Duker

So what. I dont believe any of your claims unless I have checked myself. In this case I found some time
I see your sock puppet friends soon arrive to chime in,

Barry Larking

What a surprise.

Otterman

What’s the difference between this test and the one you reported on in 2020 as having happened in 2016?

“…a test firing which took place during March 2016. A SPEAR was launched for the first time from a Typhoon trials aircraft, transitioning to powered flight and completing a series of manoeuvres before hitting the target at the QinetiQ Aberporth range”

https://www.navylookout.com/putting-the-strike-in-uk-carrier-strike-the-spear-3-stand-off-weapon/

Is this with more ‘guided’ than that shot?

Duker

Good point.
This might be it with the bad news too.
This was the first time the weapon system had been fired against a target, marking a significant step forward in the programme. Although this is a positive step, development is significantly behind schedule”

Dave

The uk is no longer a military country

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Dave

Don’t panic! Dont. panic!

  1. Because, as this article makes quite clear, the Swedes are the ones who are testing and building all of the west’s most advanced weapons systems;
  2. Thus they are claaerly well ahaed of the UK in all aspects of defence technology and engineering (possibly something to do with all of those long and cold nights – and with nowt else to do?)
  3. and – furthermore – because of European geography – that very nice Mr Putin will have to drive his tanks through Sweden first!
  4. Therefore, if Sweden does get invaded, the UK goverment will just ask the Swedes to hold out for at least four years: i.e. until our very own new super -dooper new Spear missles are ready to be fired at the Russian army..
  5. That delaying tactic was clearly what was being discussed at the big conference held on board the QE carrier when it recently visted Stockholm
  6. So, overall, in geo-political and strategic terms, the fact that the UK is no longer a great military power is no reason whatsoever for you to lose any sleep !

All joking apart – why are we intergrating and test firing Spear in Sweden?

Peter (Irate Txapayer)

  • Mind you…….just in case the Swedes cannot hold out for four years, might it be a good idea to have an UK aircraft carrier that can carry armed F£5 aircraft (i.e. rather than being primarily useful for hosting mig conferences of excessive gold braid?)
Duker

The missile is designed and manufactured by MBDA not Sweden. Its a multinational combing the former national missile companies of France, UK and Italy, and more recently LFK from germany

Sweden is buying Meteor and Spear 3 thats all and others such as CAMM
The test was just done in Sweden at a test range

“MBDA has tested missiles at the Vidsel Test Range in Sweden, including the SPEAR, AKERON, and CAMM missiles”

All your claims are false.

Last edited 23 days ago by Duker
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Duker

Staying on the subject of “false claims”

As I requested from you last week ….can you please post up here on Navy Lookout the two definitive maps showing the territirail limits of

  1. Russia: The Sea of Oshsok (ie surrounded by Siberia)
  2. China: The South Chjina Sea

In anticaption. many thanks.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Georgie

His Internet is probably down…

Edmund

He needs to finish his day job at McDonalds first

Duker

The sock puppet name returns , I hope you get well soon and stay on the meds

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Geogie

Thank you for the excellent advice! I hadn’t though of that !

The loss of connection must be really really annoying for him!

I really was beginning to wonder why it was taking him so long to reply to my very simple request: i.e. to find two very simple maps of territorial sea limits.

They are, after all, both in his own backyard…

So, yes, his intenet connection (at work) must have failed

It is most-probably something to do with that Chinese merchant ship cutting the Lion 1 underwater cable between Finland and Germany

Our NATO allies in the Danish Navy are investingating the suspect.

I must go now: its lunchtime

I am just off to go and buy one of their lovely pastries – you know the type = the well-know delicacy nly served on special occasioms in the wardrooms of the Danish Navy.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Find it yourself. I gave the link which maps the global ones but I dont care about those just the Anglo Irish Sea ones relevant to the Yantar story

Rudeboy

Vidsel range is the longest air to ground range available in Europe.

Otherwise we’d have to go to White Sands in the US…so this is far cheaper.

We’ve been using Vidsel for trials for a few years now, and also use it for JTAC training with live Paveway drops. The only place we can do it in the UK is off Cape Wrath which is not exactly realistic.

Oh….and you seem a little out on geography…..to get to Sweden the Russian’s would have to go through Finland first….

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Rudeboy

  1. Thank you for the info explaing why using the ranges at Vidsel is now being preferred
  2. Bit worrying that we invested all of our money in cape warth-….. only to discover that the very same team which asked for that faciity to be upgraded all now want to travel over to Sweden. However that is quite typical of Qinetiq….
  3. My geography is fine
  4. I should howver have been a bit clearer with my English!!!-
  5. I should have expanded the sentence to say that it was a strategy whiich required both Finland and Sweden to hold out for four years…..

Anyhow, must now sign off…. and finally………..

……….it is nice to see you are living up to your moniker!!!…

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Sean

Congratulations on winning today’s stupidest comment on the internet…

Sean
Mark

Before a missile can be devloped & evaluated for hitting targets, it has to be shown capable of safely being launched, ie that it separates from the the mounting cleanly and won’t hit the launching aircraft ect..