HMS Diamond returned to Gibraltar on 10th February following two intense months deployed in the Red Sea, including action in combat. Here we summarise her time in Gibraltar and the current situation.
A job for Gib
It’s about 3,000 miles from the southern Red Sea to Gibraltar and it may seem surprising that HMS Diamond was not replenished in theatre at a nearby port such as Salalah or Duqm. The main reason is that Diamond needed to embark more Sea Viper missiles which have to be stored securely and handled by experts, ideally on British territory. This is not something that can be easily done in Oman and Gib has underground weapon storage facilities, dating back centuries that are suitable for holding stocks of these expensive and sensitive weapons. In mid-December, the MoD had already anticipated this requirement and delivered a couple of batches of Sea Vipers to Gib from the UK onboard Point class ro-ro vessels.
Numerous anti-Western media and assorted conspiracy theorists tried to claim that HMS Diamond had been withdrawn from the Red Sea after being damaged in action. As all the photos clearly show, she is battle-hardened but not battle-damaged. Despite multiple attempts, the Houthis have failed to hit any warships since their campaign began in November 2023.
Replenish, re-arm, refuel and rest
Having sailed from Portsmouth on 17th November and covering more than 20,000 miles by early February, unsurprisingly Diamond also had some material defects that required attention from divers and engineers. The ship has something of a history of significant mechanical defects but recently she has performed well. (Diamond previously took part in the UKCSG deployment in the North Sea and Baltic Sea, Sept-Oct 2023.)
Staff in Gibraltar are well used to supporting RN vessels on their way to and from operational theatres and the Rock is again proving its worth as a forward base for UK naval forces. Gib is also only a couple of hours from the UK by air, making it easier for support staff to be flown out and potentially allowing some of the ship’s company to have a short break at home.
Vertically launched missiles can only be loaded in port using cranes and trained personnel. Despite the efforts of several navies to find solutions, as yet there is no viable option for reloading VLS cells at sea. Whether Diamond deployed with a full magazine (48 x Aster 15/30s) is classified, but she almost certainly did not return to Gib completely out of missiles. (From the limited information available, at least one drone was shot down by guns, so a maximum of 8 missiles were fired). However, it is prudent to reload when there is an opportunity. It is believed this is the first time Sea Vipers have been embarked on a Type 45 while overseas.
HMS Richmond was deployed to provide relief for HMS Diamond, she sailed from Gibraltar on 10th January and went to Souda Bay, Crete, ostensibly to conduct weapon and sensor calibration at the FORACS facility. This is routine for warships preparing to deploy east of Suez. She passed through the Canal on 1st February and began patrols, picking up where HMS Diamond left off as part of Operation Prosperity Guardian. Although lacking the long-range air defence capabilities of a Type 45, Richmond’s Sea Ceptor system is well suited to the protection of nearby merchant ships as well as being a much cheaper missile than the Type 45’s Aster. There has been little reporting on Richmond’s progress but she does not yet appear to have been called on to fire weapons and she subsequently visited Salalah, Oman in mid-February.
Unfinished business
HMS Diamond will sail shortly to resume operations in the Red Sea as the job is not yet done. Although Houthi attacks on merchant shipping have subsided considerably since their peak in late December, they are still managing to make occasional hits. For example, on Feb 18th Houthis attacked UK-owned bulk carrier MV Rubymar which is now at anchor but slowly taking on water. The main cargo is 41,000 tons of fertilizer and she is leaking fuel causing an 18-mile oil slick. A major catastrophe was narrowly avoided in late January when the Indian Navy helped put out a fire on a fully laden oil tanker, MV Marlin Launda hit by a Houthi missile in the Gulf of Oman. Besides the danger to innocent civilian sailors, indiscriminate attacks on ships risk an environmental disaster that will impact fishing and the coastal communities of both Yemen and other Red Sea nations.
A third air-air refuelling-enabled strike on Yemen by 4 RAF Typhoons flying from Cyprus was delivered on 24th February. Since January the US has conducted an ongoing campaign of both planned and reactive air strikes, predominantly using Super Hornets flying from the carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower. These have degraded Houthi ISR capabilities, military facilities and hit weapons being prepared for launch but it is very difficult to take out every small mobile drone launcher.
The Houthis have succeeded in their tactical aim of disrupting global trade and merchant ships are diverting around the Cape of Good Hope in large numbers. However, their stated strategic goal of influencing events in Gaza has utterly failed, having little direct influence on the actions of the Israeli government. Whether the conflict in the Red Sea will end when Israel ceases combat operations in Gaza remains to be seen. For the RN and other Western navies, the looming question is for how long will this major naval effort be required before merchant ships can resume peaceful transits of the Red Sea.
When they hit a tanker/bulk carrier it needs to be run aground on Yemen’s shores. They can enjoy an Exxon Valdez incident for generations for their efforts.
What a great idea – destroy the environment to teach their marine life a lesson they won’t forget.
The Houthi (and come to that other Arab states don’t care – the UN recently had to crowd find the safe offloading of a storage tanker off Yemen and it’s scrappage to avoid just such an environmental disaster.
All the rusty streaks, the sea is so harsh.
The Phalanx looking as ever small and indaquate in today’s security enviroment. The RN desperately needs something in a larger calibre. Plenty of space for it.
I’d hardly say there’s plenty of space. Besides I doubt phalanx will be replaced anytime soon
And as the USS Gravely recently demonstrated, the Phalanx is effective against anti-ship cruise missiles.
Why not?
And I never said it would be replaced soon.
What I mean is its very unlikely the T45 will be upgraded any further than planned, any “new” CIWS would be on future designs and I’m pretty sure phalanx will still be used somewhere.
I’d hardly say there’s plenty of space.
More than enough space for say…….
………for say a Sovrapponte.
You could replace 30mm too and have two on each beam.
I understand about the money. But if we started from that point every time we might as well not discuss anything.
Trouble is the 30mm is on a platform thats not a deck , structurally its no no where it is – which is for arcs of fire
Recent destruction of Iranian/Houthi drone by Caio Duilio destroyer.
6 non guided rounds of 76mm destroyed it at 4km 1300ft altitude.
Source: Il Giornale
Are you certain those rounds were non-guided?
It has been said in Italian navy forum.
They’re non-guided, but presumably they’re proximity fused, right?
Replacing with SeaRAM would be a viable upgrade to Phalanx. 11-missiles versus 3-5 engagements between reloads on Phalanx, not to mention a bit more range.
They already looked at Sea ram to replace phalanx. The limited ammo was undesirable and obviously cost is a factor. We’ve only got enough Phalanx for 1 whole set per ship when we need 2. Investing in RAM wouldn’t help
Is that compared to:
– A30
– A15
– Sea Ceptor (I know it isn’t fitted yet)
– 40mm (I know T45 has 30mm)
Phalanx has a role to play in the rich tapestry of naval defensive warfare.
I’d agree if it was the only show.
Compared to modern CIWS systems.
Why list missile when I am talking about a gun system?
I don’t care whether you agree or not.
Who cares if you care or not, you bring nothing to this site, just the same old rubbish.
What about you then, just farting!
I live in his mind rent free.
The site owner will prune that post later.
Phalanx is a modern CIWS system. Latest upgrade was to the radar in 2019 – its not the same system that was launched in 1977.
More importantly, there’s now real world proof that it works under combat conditions.
Ballistics of 20mm are impossible to improve.
But you can certainly improve their effectiveness by improving the radar so they’re shot at the target,
Imagine this, a drone comes at 2000m altitude and vertically descends on the ship. Phalanx will have at most 1km effective range vertically and that with radar help only, the explosion debris and several rounds will fall on the ship.
He can only think in old English money, lol.
Theres a 4.5 in calibre already there …. software blather blather , but that as you know it can fixed if there a will to do so and far less cost than some sort of 40mm at $10 mill each
Why don’t you fix it then? Did you write the code?
Another day another new/false name. Its against the rules you know- which I didnt write
I don’t think there are any 4.5″ AAW rounds being manufactured.
Are they even being maintained by RN?
I see they have armour plates all round the bridge deck level. Whatever next deck armour?
Where? I don’t see any discoloured panels or anything else out of the ordinary
Force protection position for GPMG/MinGun/50cal or whatever they are using this week
To be honest the best option would be to remove the 4.5inch gun ( which is effectively useless for AAW) and replace it with something that is effective..a 5inch or 57mm as they are both effective anti air weapons and will already be in the RN arsenal.
The shoot down markings strike me as a bit odd: multi-million pound warship uses multi million pound missiles to shoot down 10 bob drones powered by unlicensed German engines. Hopefully the Iranians don’t launch more than 48 of the el cheapo drones at a T-45.x
That is why using another layer of 57 or 40mm would save a lot of expensive missiles.
It is a lot cheaper to fire off clips of ammunition than to fire even Sea Ceptor. Ammunition is also RASable [VERTREP too in certain circumstances] and has a long shelf life as well as compact on board storage requirements.
But in the end it comes down to the threat table. You will do anything to stop a certain risk calculus.
Something to remember though is alot of these attacks aren’t on the warships. And most of the time they are not directly escorting the merchant vessels. So missiles are the only option.
True
They’re not 10 Bob drones they’re around a quarter of a million, plus the antiship missiles which is exactly what Aster was designed to counter, either way it’s more than worth it if it saves millions of pounds worth of ship being damaged.
Nah m8, we are talking 10 bob relatively speaking. Anyway, the UK/US owned-operated ships are all routing around the cape so Victory to the Houthis, sugar-coating regardles. There is something dreadfully wrong in the way that euro defense industry and euro difence ministries have conspired to underquip the military with expensive stuff that isn’t fit for purpose.
The million pounds missile actually saved merchant vessels and as such ensured that one of the busiest trade routes is kept open. And in turn by ensuring that goods don’t go the long way round keeps UK economy safe.
It’s not the cost of the missile that matters – it’s the cost of what’s being defended – An Aster 15 is maybe £2m which is a good deal when protecting a container ship
Not sure when “10 bob” equated to “£20k”.
Either you got utterly confused during decimalisation or fail to comprehend the difference between the military drones built by the Iranian arms industry and quad-copter toys on Amazon.
Spoken as a true civvy! You use the assets and platforms you have available and planned/trained in/for. Once a task has been carried out ie an expensive missile used, TTPs and assets change to adapt and suit the ongoing experience and expected situation! War is fluid, shit and threats change, we change with them to adapt and overcome!
What appears to be a Vulcan bomber and a Sea Vixen are hardly10 bob shoot downs!
Dodgy museum employees at Hendon and Yeovilton must have taken a backhander 😉
While the Houthi’s might claim their stated aim is to influence events in Gaza, in reality it’s to try and earn favour and credibility with the people’s of the region by being seen to act on behalf of the Palestinians.
Quite cynical attitude by them, exploiting the suffering in Gaza for their own political gain.
USAF has been bombing Yemen ( covertly- mostly drones) for over decade now and the attacks on US warships began long before the Gaza war
And the Houthis (falsely) claim that that current attacks on commercial shipping are in solidarity with the Palestinians over the war in Gaza. Perhaps you should read an article before commenting…
2016 USS Mason Bab El- Mendeb Str
https://www.usna.edu/CoreEthics/syllabus/classes/Vampire,_Vampire.pdf
And yet you claim to be the evidence based guy
Once the Saudis were supporting the rebel Zaydi-Houthi against the Egyptian forces supporting the then new government back in 1960s [ A general deposed the newly crowned King-Iman]
Yet another rambling post that has no relevance to what I posted. Maybe the reason you don’t read articles or posts before commenting is that English isn’t your first language, comrade?
Houthis are part of Imperial Islam . The Islamic Iranian Constitution expressly says that the regime should work to the expansion of Islam all over world.
see above -Once the Saudis were supporting the rebel Zaydi-Houthi against the Egyptian forces supporting the then new government back in 1960s [ A general deposed the newly crowned King-Iman]
North Yemen had long been a theocratic state ruled under Mutawakkilite Kingdom of Yemen, as the population of 35 mill 40% is Zaydi sect ( combines elements of Sunni and Shia) virtually all who live in the North mountainous areas now controlled by their movement -known as Houthi
Its absurd to claim they are ‘controlled by Iran’ . Its like saying US supplies weapons for and controls Israel! LOL
Hamas for instance is funded by UAE
Of course they are controlled by Islamic regime of Iran
Where you think the Houthi slogan came from and is so specific?
Hamas is supported by Qatar, Iran, Muslim Brotherhood organisations, UN, USA, Europe and Israel…
Supporting Hamas is not acting in behalf of Palestinians.
Never said it was, I said that’s what the Houthis claim. Too subtle or nuanced for your translation software?
Did the Phalanx destroy a Houthi missile on HMS Diamond, or the missile hit the destroyer?
What do you think if they are rearming it and not heading back to the UK?
Phalanx was definitely used by USS Gravely to defend against a cruise missile. Which gun system on HMS Diamond engaged the drone has not been announced, to my knowledge.
However, one of the 30mm, operated electro-optically, was recently nominated as likely – by former Rear Admiral Dr Chris Parry, as I recall)
Have always thought that the number of Aster cells on the T45s was rather small, with such a leap in capacity of the radar and tracking systems it seemed silly not to have a larger magazine than the T42s (especially given the draw down in hulls and the lack of ability to resupply VLS easily.
They have almost twice the capacity
The Batch 3 T42s could carry 40 reloads rather than the 20 of the earlier batches. In all cases plus the 2 loaded and ready (so 42 vs 22 rounds).
As I understand the Batch 3 had ffbnw space for 15 more missiles along with the 22 in the original magazine. But we’re never fitted with it.
The other 15 wouldn’t have been in the auto loader. They would have been on fixed racks.
They would have been put into the auto loader with a chain winch running on an overhead gantry.
It was also to do with other ‘varieties’ of Sea Dart that never came into service so
No they couldn’t – 23 max. The increased space was fwd of the Dart magazine.
T45 =48 Missiles one shot per target
USN AB Destroyer= 90 or 96 tubes. If all fitted with SM2, the most common and cheapest Med Range area defence missile they have for AAW then best practise is salvo shots 2 per target because it’s a semi active homer and the PK is lower than an active homer( Aster is active as is Ceptor) …so that’s 48 targets.
As the USN also carries ASROC , Tomahawk, ESSM and SM6 (Long range AAW Active homer but 4-6Mil a shot!) the number of long range targets an AB could engage can be less than a T45.
Its not tubes that count…its whats in them.
Thats what people don’t realise when comparing the Arleigh-Burkes with the Type 45. Thanks for the reminder.
What happens if the threat is a ballistic missile?
What happens if the threat is jumping alien spacecraft, or have you not watched that cautionary documentary, “Battleship”?…
What happens if a S-400 sticks up your backside? Is more pointy, haha.
Your obsession with things going into backsides is a well known trait of repressed homosexuality. And at least try to stick to the same identity, or Alf/Bob are you using multiple ones in case you get banned???
“the number of long range targets an AB could engage can be less than a T45”
This is true. By the same token, depending on the load out it could also mean the ABs could engage significantly more long range threats than the T45.
Thank god you turned up to seed some reality and experience!!!!!!!
That is the voice of arrogance Gunbuster.
SM-2 Block IIIB have terminal IR guidance besides semi active
SM-2 Block IIIC is active radar
then the new development
SM-6 active radar.
All of those already in production
On January 30, 2024, the USS Carney shot down an anti-ship ballistic missile in the Gulf of Aden fired by Houthi rebels with an SM-6. This was the first combat intercept of a ballistic missile in combat publicly acknowledged by the DoD.
SM-6 is just the improved SM-2ER with an active radar in nose ( from Amraam)
The cost apparently is even higher than a Tomahawk cruise missile
The Houthi BM arent very high end
The very top end long range ABM is the SM-3 which shares nothing with SM-2/6
“The Houthi BM arent very high end”
You do realize that this is the first time in history that ASBMs have been used in combat in history?
And if these aren’t very high end, what does it say about the T45 if these same “not very high end” missiles or any other higher end ASBM will have relegated the T45 to the role of glorified bystanders. Worryingly even with the aster upgrades in development, when you take into consideration the time it will take to complete development, procurement and integration it could be that way for another decade.
The Red Sea Straits are only 10s of KM wide. Ballistic trajectory missiles used arent going very high or fast like the 500km ones.
Its just another target for a modern destroyer with high capable missiles like the T45.
Im not sure of the details but even some SM-2/6 have a land/ship targeting capability – so act like the Houthis AAW missiles/ballistic used for similar
Ballistic isnt some sort of magic ingredient – in these circumstances- that you think it is
The point I was making isn’t that it’s high end, rather that if a rag tag group like the houthis can have it then we can only assume that the proliferation will increase. And yes I don’t think the ballistic missiles being fired by the houthis is high end which is what is most worrying. If the T45 can’t do anything about these now and for the foreseeable future, what does it say about its prospects against a really high end threat like those rumored to be in the possession of China.
Who has said the T45 cant do anything about the ballistic trajectory missiles Houthis have launched at the shipping ?
From my earlier comments I thought Seaslug could be fired in a semi ballistic surface to surface mode while at sea
https://www.littlewars.org.uk/Seaslug/slugmode.html
I could be fired that way. In theory.
Just don’t expect it to hit anything…….maybe the wrong thing?
The problem was it was totally and utterly inaccurate.
Nobody really realised how bad it was until the final stages of Corporate when Glamorgan was supposed to bombard shore positions in a shock and awe demonstration. Problem was the first missile hit the wrong mountain.
Falklands was a case of everything going wrong and right at the same time. My view was 80% poor training and 20% weapons systems faults
A destroyer ( Sea Dart) and Frigate ( Sea Wolf) couldnt even shoot down a brace of Skyhawks over open ocean, and Coventry was lost in a 1930s style attack profile
Seaslug was just an example of how a long range AA missile is repurposed TODAY in the Red Sea- doesnt make it a true ballistic missile either as some think.
I’ve no idea what you point actually is as you cut and pasted some text.
Sea Slug is in no way comparable to any of the weapons that are being used here by either side.
Even in 1982 we all knew Sea Slug was useless
You cannot compare the failings of Sea Dart (known engagement envelope being exploited in most cases or the early editions which were a lot less successful than Exeter) or Wolf which was really still under development and performed remarkably well.
These were single system ships in ‘82.
Ships now are a system of systems with many things working together in a highly coreographed manner.
Parts of the Sea Slug systems would not have looked terribly out of place on a WW2 era ship or plane. Similar ‘bits’ were in Vulcan systems.
My point was that just because Sea Slug nominally had a capability didn’t mean it was a useful one.
Of course Sea Slug isnt . Thats what I said. The method for those old Soviet AA missiles is. This is what the Houthis are using
It was four (two waves of two) Skyhawks that attacked Broadsword and Coventry, not two.
Sea Wolf couldn’t be used as Coventry turned into the line of fire when attempting to reduce her profile to the incoming attack.
Previously they shot down two Skyhawks and shared the kill of another.
Thats the PR . Look the consensus is what you describe , but what about the Skyhawks exiting?
The Type 23 had TWO Seawolf launcher and tracker systems front and rear. So the other system didnt fire in the other direction either ?
The other speculation is the poor training as there was plenty of time and it wasnt OK to say both missiles systems failed.
Just the other day the German destroyer Hessen in Red Sea fired 2 SM-2 missiles at a high altitude drone ( USAF MQ Reaper!) both failed and didnt bring it down in a friendly fire incident
Thats a whole sequence of failure there !
Or the Reaper was able to defeat them with passive or active countermeasures.
No that’s the facts. But you’re an avowed conspiracy theorist so you ignore facts that disprove your beliefs, rather than allowing facts to inform what you should believe.
As per usual you tell half the story, to hide the facts that are inconvenient to your political narrative. While Hessen failed to shoot down the Reaper, it did shoot down the two drones launched by the Houthi.
Its not a conspiracy to say that the Hessen fired two Sm-2 missiles at at a US high altitude drone, both failed
The 2 houthi drones are separate incident , I think one was downed by the 76mm!
Its still a major issue – missile fails and friendly fire. Also it seems the type of SM-2 used by Germany- something special about its semi active guidance- is no longer in production
It shouldnt have even been engaging the Reaper, whos fault that is is unknown
Hitting Houthi drones is childs play
https://www.twz.com/news-features/german-frigate-mistakenly-fires-on-mq-9-downs-two-houthi-drones
Yes German media says one of drones was destroyed by the 76mm and it was an old variant gun already in service at Falklands time.
It is probably a gun that probably is more than 40 years old.
Caio Duilio destroyer just downed an Iranian/Houthi drone at 1300ft 4km distance with 6 rounds from 76mm gun – new model with guided rounds – but the rounds used were conventional.
Or the Reaper drone was successful in countering the attack. Don’t jump to conclusions, only conspiracy theorists do that.
Exactly.
This was looked into as nauseam as it was important to lean lessons from it.
There wasn’t some mysterious cover up as @Duker appears to imply…..
You have to remember, Duker is a fully paid-up conspiracy theorist (climate change denial, etc). He maintained for awhile that I had some secret ‘super powers’ that allowed me to change comments days after they’d been posted…
He sees conspiracies and cover-ups everywhere.
hahaha our very own Witchsmeller Pursuivant hunting out the heretics.
No need to smell you out, you’re self confessed.
Heres the RN giving the whole side of the ship ( HMS Glasgow this time) to A-4 Skyhawks to aim for BEFORE the Coventry attack
That’s not a RN website.
No cover up in what I said .
Falklands storys have lots of versions. I quoted the official version about Seacat and lots of people disputed it – just because
Errr
We were talking about Sea Slug……up thread….
Sea Cat was something else……best not to be down threat…
I need a stiff drink reading this thread….
Arrogance?
Note I said cheapest. I also said AAW not ABMD. ABMD is a whole different ball game. Only specific ABs have the software and hardware mods to do that job and the course and speed profile of the ship is severely constrained to allow them to have a chance of conducting an engagement. If they are not in the “Box” they cannot engage.
The improved SM2s are twice the cost of the baseline one with an SM6 costing even more north of 4 mil a shot! SM6 is great for massive long range shots against high value difficult targets but against a drone?? Really??
The newer blocks are only now coming into production so there are not a lot of them around., Best practise for the IR back up to the semi active homing B3B is to still to salvo it.
As I said it’s not the number of tubes it’s what you have in them.
Your incorrect point is that all SM-2 are semi-active. They aren’t.
I am surprised he just dismisses ESSM with a 27nm range and is quad packed in Mk41 cell.
Yeah, that too. And also an active radar variant.
I think the point is that while the Block IIIC would be fairly analogous, it’s basically brand new and only just being fielded.
The SM-6 is hella expensive and only carried in relatively small numbers.
Leaving the block IIIB being the only one used in significant numbers, along with older models. And the usual trade-offs with dual-mode seekers (or rather having 1 RF and 1 IR) is that to fit both, neither are as good as if you just had a single seeker.
So for the first 15 years or so of the Type 45 it was the case that it was more efficient with their missiles, even if the USN is starting to rectify that with new upgraded missiles.
Of course that’s just medium to long-range, the ESSM being able to be carried in bulk makes up for that somewhat for short ranges.
That is the voice of arrogance Gunbuster.
SM-2 Block IIIB have terminal IR guidance besides semi active
SM-2 Block IIIC is active radar
Then the new development
SM-6 active radar
.
All of those already in production
On January 30, 2024, the USS Carney shot down an anti-ship ballistic missile in the Gulf of Aden fired by Houthi rebels with an SM-6. This was the first combat intercept of a ballistic missile in combat publicly acknowledged by the DoD.
While all those are in production, most of the existing missiles are older models. It’s like saying ESSM is active radar. ESSM B2 is. ESSM B1 is not. ESSM B2 is in production. Most ESSM users have orders in. Most ESSM users have zero ESSM B2 in inventory. No ESSM user has placed an order big enough to replace its entire ESSM B1 inventory. In a decades time, there will still be modern warships with ESSM B1 onboard.
I was contesting Gunbuster claim that US missiles are exclusively semi active.
I said SM2.
B3 is still semi active with IR back up. It still needs the semi active bit to get near to the target.
Active SM2 is only now entering production.
SM6 isn’t SM2 …the clue is in the numbers…
Be as pedantic as you normally like
Most SM-2 active variants are rebuilds of the older version , as they have large stocks.
With new buyers SM-2 back in production recently
SM-2MR with a Fritz X in background- published on ‘NavalGazing’
ESSM has a range of 27nm and is quad packed.
Can t45 radar direct fire from other allied assets or is that in near future?
It was publicly announced that in the last SINKEX missiles fired from RN assets were guided to target by RAF assets and vice versa.
But that is a *mid course* correction. There is no need for terminal guidance.
So we can assume that it is at least in a testing phase and probably being deployed as it would appear to be a software update.
Also unlike earlier missiles the T45 does not have to radar illuminate the target as the missiles A30/15/CAMM are all active homing missiles.
Ground (or ship) based radar illumination works far better for low RCS targets. Missile based homing often doesn’t have the acuity to track very small or low RCS targets.
The current crop of RN missiles don’t work by illumination.
The ship / aircraft / helicopter would send a course and then a series of mid course corrections until the missiles systems could pick up the target.
these are being boosted by adding 24 x Sea Ceptor cells, allowing all 48 Aster cells to be used for A30 rather than A15. At least we’re putting ships out with all cells full now, a few years back there was a report of T23 operating in the Med with only 4 cells actually loaded (when it was still Sea Wolf).
T45 was developed to deal with an imaginary threat.
The world was about as peaceful as it would ever be. If was hard to think how/when you would need 48 missiles in the late 1990’s early 00’s.
But they were built big with space for upgrades which are in the pipeline.
So the right core decisions were made.
Things like not fitting Mk41 are, in retrospect, not so smart. But that was politics and not RN.
I think it was mostly to do with the original Horizon program being built around the Slyver cells rather than mk41. Plus no ones ever tried to put aster in Mk41
That wasn’t my point.
ASTER goes in SYLVER and as you say that was the basis of HORIZON.
Mk41 VLS was for other goodies.
Ah the additional cells. Yeh if funding allowed it would be a good addition. But no point in adding them if the funds for the weapons to go in them aren’t there.
Oh it wasn’t “an imaginary threat”. There was a reason that the UK part of the Tripartite specification for Horizon (and specifically PAAMS) differed from the FR/IT.
Not fitting the IPMD Mk 41 was very much cost-related. Fitting Sylver vice Mk 41 for the AAW elements was all down to the cost of qualifying the Aster weapon in a different launch tube. Small millions, but enough back then to kibosh any thought of doing so.
OK, it was a very well scoped out theoretical threat. And I would also assert that RN made the correct decision to use SAMPSON over the other tech on the table.
But at that moment in time it was an utterly theoretical threat as there was no credible threat axis. So it was a simulation exercise.
I wasn’t arguing that ASTER should have been in Mk41 VLS as I think it is better off where it is now in SYLVER as we are in an ecosystem with others rather than having to shoulder all the ongoing R&D costs as a singleton user.
But I do think that Mk41 should have been fitted at build stage for other reasons even if it was left empty to start with. It would, by now, have had TLAM in it if nothing else.
Threat = capability plus intent. Concur that the intent from the nice Russian republic wasn’t a problem right then, but the capability – not least from potential exports – was.
And yes, we should have put the Mk41’s in – but that capability management for you….
Yes . Back then it was the US/UK invading countries for political reasons and oil
Remember that the RN see EW as the primary defence assest against guided munitions.
The missiles back that up.
And then (on T45) Phalanx.
Interested in that actual EW hardware you suggest ( remember we looked it Italys a week ago)
The carriers seem to have neither EW nor missiles
AAW warfare is the domain of the AAW destroyers, not the carriers. Similar to how carrying a wing of F35s is the domain of the carriers and not the Type 45s.
“Despite multiple attempts, the Houthis have failed to hit any warships since the conflict began.”
a UAE warship was hit by a missile and caught fire a few years ago
https://www.workboat.com/bluewater/hsv-2-swift-wrecked-yemen-missile-attack
Perim Is in the straits has been linked to a ‘secret UAE base’. They previously had a coastal base with runway in Eritrea at Assab – opposite the straits. No wonder they bought some C-17s
Were you there in person? in the CIC?
Its official . Those who contradict actual events better have a better reason than rumours- which is fine too . Just dont make out they have any real credibility. I often use navy lookout as a credible source but this time its added information about a UAE naval vessel
I saw the RFQ to repair it.
I told my lot to give it a wide berth and dont quote because the repair proposal was completely unrealistic.
It was an ally catamaran with minimal radar and sensors . Its analogous to a Fast Cat Car ferry that crosses the channel.
Exactly. Calling it a “warship” is a bit of a stretch. Was actually a USN experimental vessel called Swift back in the day – a trial of what became their Expeditionary Fast Transport ships, built by Austal.
Swift was actually an Incat design – spent a bit of time on her when in Portsmouth in the noughties. AS GB suggests, basically a car ferry with one or two mods to turn it into a longer ranged asset. Didn’t do well in the North Atlantic……
14 built of the catamaran version for USN , plus 1 more under construction and 2 more announced
Missing your point I am…..
Seems pretty useful to US navy …this ‘car ferry’ type if the are building so many.
Some might dispute not much of a warship for these types of fast cats
Worked a lot on them. They are way bigger than swift was and a more mature design. They are also a maintenance nightmare. Lots of cracking because they are all ally . Keeps me in work anyway!
So basically they are claiming the victory of hitting the Isle of Wight ferry or the old Sea Cat that used to operate around the Channel Islands? Just wanting to make sure we knew exactly what sort of ‘warship’ we were talking about.
Plus the drone boat attack on a Saudi frigate 2017 – long before Ukraine copied it , as mentioned below
So you know how to google, were you at the CIC then or just BS?
See ‘author’ reply below.
Your new identity today is it
*recent conflict – ie. since November 2023.
You forgot the Houthis also hit a Saudi frigate with a suicide USV in January 2017.
You said Maximum of 8 missiles in this piece, shouldn’t it be a minimum as some could have missed target, unlikely but just thought it would make more sense
I think it is safe to say that it is highly unlikely any missed. Drones simply don’t have the same ability to evade a modern missile as an aircraft and with no effective RWR they simply wouldn’t see it coming to dodge in the first place
I may be wrong, but to my eyes the first photo in the article (aerial shot showing the VLS) it looks like 9 launches have taken place ( 4 from the starboard band and 5 from the port bank) judging by the lack of soot.
Good catch. We know the RN doesnt like to mention missile failures of any sort
You are.
Good to know! My deduction method isn’t exactly scientific and I’m happy to defer to people more in the know.
Based on what evidence exactly?
Using the brain that you don’t have.
If there was some evidence in the photo do point to it old chap?
Otherwise do keep up.
Smoke blackend hatches ….count them
.
The picture enlarges or use your preferred magnifying glass
Ah…I seeeeee……try counting the non smoke blackened VLS lids……that’s the ticket…
Problem solved……
Hint when the lid is *up* during launch it can’t be hit by the rocket efflux……so it isn’t covered in debris and soot…….
Crikey
101 to base…..
Nine drones – at what cost financially? How long can we maintain this expenditure; surely there is a cheaper option.
There appears to be no cheaper option due to the shooting distance involved.
I would love to see the T45 have both the 57 and 40mm guns, but these are only of use in defending the ship itself, or a merchant ship that was very close.
Firing Ceptor would be cheaper (when fitted) but again it’s distance related.
Having a T23 armed with a few camm-er would be useful as a midway house between ordinary camm and Aster30.
AA
Hmmm, well lets see, nine drones, potentially nine fully laden cargo vessels with upwards of thirty thousand tons of cargo. Depending on what that cargo is then it is possible we are talking about a cost in millions but a saving of billions. Don’t forget we aren’t just talking imports here. We export a huge amount of things by sea as well.
A third of U.K. importers and a half exporters being impacted by the disruption in the Red Sea.
Add in the potential losses both in financial terms and human life then the expenditure is definitely worthwhile.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68398413
God bless British Gibraltar, again showing just how important Gibraltar is to the British family and our brave armed forces
Agreed. I am to visit Gibraltar next month for the first time since 1976 when I bullied the FMU to redeploy is effort from the Governor’s yacht to the frigate of which I was the WEO and also won a lot of money at the (now defunct) casino. I expect much has changed in the over the decades.
We should probably enhance both the garrison and the support facilities in Gibraltar.
Good to see Gib proving her worth – had many a happy time in the Angry Friar, Lord Nelson et al.
There may be some merit in building some sort of small facility at Akrotiri. A jetty and a mobile crane seems to be the basic requirement. You could tie that in to some bunkering of fuel (since there are already fuel bunkers present) and the resources of an operational air base. You could fly the missiles and installation crew in and when as required.
I think that they looked into building some sort of contingency during the Brexit negotiations. Requirement was for a RO-RO jetty which could also berth a warship the size of a Type 45.
Port facilities in the SBA’s aren’t extensive are they? I have thought for a while it was a gap.
A good point, I think. The feasibility would depend upon finding a suitable point on the coastline. I would add that there might also be a small RN presence, similar to that currently at Gibraltar.
David JB and David M,
Very good point!
Given that Cyprus is geographically quite close to many past and current war zones (Crimea, Syria, Iraq, Israel/Gaza, Red Sea, Libya etc), it is quite staggering that proper facilities, especially naval and military, have never been provided on Cyprus.
As a bare minimum, to support the RN on its ever-more-frequent grey funnel cruises to the Med and Red Sea, one of the two UK sovereign bases on Cyprus really ough to have:
Meanwhile at RAF Akrotiri….there are no hardened aircraft / helicopters shelters. This is despite the base being within approx. 150 miles – i.e. enemy missile (both cruise and ballistic) and drone range – of Iranian-backed forces in Syria.
Also a definite lack of any proper Role 2 aeromedical evacuation facilities (despite the recent plans to build a new RAF passenger terminal).
Therefore Diamond has to sail the full length of the Med – two thousand miles each way – to refuel and rearm at Gib.
All in all, Cyprus is yet other prize example of the MOD and RN and RAF being penny-wise and pound-foolish when it comes to investing in essential infrastructure!
Last and by no means least… If the RN wants some positive media coverage; why are a planeload of fleet street journo’s not being flown out to Gib? (hint: interview with the Captain, whilst standing in front of the “painted drone kills”!)
regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
Precisely, i don’t understand why a Sky Sabre battery isn’t in the Cyprus already.
Judging by the standard of ‘Defence’ journalism displayed recently I wouldn’t let the average journo within a mile of one of our warships.
Theoden
Journalists are inherently very very simple creatures………..so:
Therefore, for the RN to get good news story, the RN now needs to start to “manage the journalist’s expectations”.
(and ideally….. also take them into the wardroom and open a bottle (or two) of the merry-making liquid refreshment….. and, very-often the falling over liquid refreshment works wonders……)
Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
In terms of engagement with the media the RN does what the political leadership in Whitehall tells them to. There is almost certainly a reason good, bad or indifferent as to why there hasn’t (yet) been a media “availability” in Gib.
Done and Done- Arabian Sea is even better on coast of Oman
In March 2016, the British government secured a joint venture between the British-based Babcock International and the Omani-based Oman Drydock Company to develop the Al Duqm Port & Drydock into a strategic port capable of supporting naval operations.
In November 2021, the base hosted HMS Queen Elizabeth and her carrier strike group for the first time, prior to their participation in joint military training with Omani forces.[15][16] From 2023, the base will be the principal facility for vessels of the British task group, Littoral Response Group (South)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Joint_Logistics_Support_Base
The USN is also spending money to host their CVN at the port. India is also wanting a base there
There’s more reasons to build a Type 45 supporting jetty at Cyprus than not to. The airbase has fuel bunkers, secure ammo storage and even some workboats. It has regular trooper flights connecting back to UK. It has transit accommodation and base security. There are so many resources that that could be leveraged to deliver a cost effective boost in capability. In fact the benefits go 2-way. A regular visiting Destroyer\Frigate might help plug some of that Sky Sabre gap.
However the reason it hasn’t happened is the same reason why only now they’ve discovered some loose change down the back of the couch to fund replacing the aged flight terminal at AKI. There is simply is no budget for initiative or innovation. Defence is instead run by disinterested Treasury Officials who have twisted the culture of the MOD so that it is devoted to the pursuit of wasting time, energy and resources trying to conform to petty financial controls.
Souda Bay in Crete is the existing NATO naval facility in eastern Med
Look whos there
DJB
I totally agree…..
With a relatively small amount of investment in some proper modern infrastructure, the sovereign base area(s) on Cyprus ought to be capable of hosting plenty of equipment and personnel from all three of the UK armed services.
As you rightly say it would leverage capability: thus being a “force multiplier” to use the jargon…
Investing in some good quality infrastructure on Cyprus would therefore give the UK (and NATO) the ability to surge out to the eastern Med plenty of extra resources – both personnel and logistics – using both sealift and airlift from the UK (and if necessary, elsewhere). However these would only need to be sent out there as and when they are actually needed….
There would only need to be relatively small presence on a regular basis.
The other advantage of Cyprus would be one that is essential, but often forgotten about.. …..that is the ability to train personnel, especially Army troops and RMC Bootnecks, to fight in hot climatic conditions. Acclimatisation is essential!
This investment in Cyprus could be – if carefully planned and implemented – be both a “stone” CSG (i.e. Carrier) and also a “stone” LSG (Littoral Strike Group).
These (S)CSG and (S)LSG would be permanently anchored in the eastern Med, which as I pointed out in my first post, is (repeatedly and regularly) one of the world’s warfighting hotspots.
That investment in “stone ships” – which could be worth more than investing in several “floating warships” – would therefore free up the more-mobile CSG and LSG to go cruising out other trouble spots…..
As for the culture in the MOD/RN/Treasury, I agree with you that it is today totally pathetic. Penny wise and pound foolish is the politest way I can describe it.
regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
Most of the SBA land – while UK sovereignty- is still owned privately, and still has local inhabitants and British military isnt allowed to ‘wall it off’ from the rest of the island.
So rule out any training area – LOL
The coastline for all of Cyprus isnt suitable for natural harbours, so any new port would be substantial cost. The Port of Limassol abuts the SBA and is mostly an artificial construction.
Crete which belongs to Nato member Greece is the better port with its Natural harbour at Souda Bay, plus the area also has missile firing range for Nato airforces training.
Forget the limited areas on Cyprus, its just an RAF station, and some barracks
Maybe the RN could set up a business leasing out Phalanx to selected customers like Shell or BP for their LPG or Tanker fleets. These companies could easily afford to pay to train the crews to man them. Back in the day of sail and during WW2 many if not most British Merchant ships were armed. Sometimes against Pirates or the Germans etc.
The Indiamen were armed, and even chased away the French on occasion.
Ahhh, the good old days.
Battle of Pulo Aura – Wikipedia
Mountjoy and Jonno
Why not reactivate few RN WW1-era Q-Ships – those heavily disguised merchant ships which were armed to the teeth with concealed weaponry – and send them down into the Red Sea?
regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
The Houthis dont operate vessels themselves ( once used a drone boat to attack a Saudi frigate successfully)
These arent speedboats/dhows like the somali pirates but longer range firing missiles from their mountain/coastal bases
Q Ships worked against luring submarines to attack them on the surface. The Houthis are firing missiles from inland.
(And the use of Q Ships contributed to the abandonment of cruiser rules and the adoption of unrestricted submarine warfare. So while a tactical success, probably a strategic blunder.)
How about posting RFA personnel to maintain Phalanx mounts? Absent that (or if that’s not allowed under UK law), surely there would be a few RN retirees who wouldn’t mind a fat paycheck as a mercenary for a few months?
The high risk area is maybe a days sailing for a container ship or tanker. They would need 100s of phalanx systems at US$10 mill each
The sheer volume of commercial shipping now and the short danger transit means a ‘convoy system’ is the only one feasible now.
this is what seems to be happening- but not publicly explained
“They would need 100s of phalanx systems at US$10 mill each”
As a good ‘murican, I gotta say I’m not seeing the problem with this.
REFERENCE: EFFECTIVE USE OF THE CHA-CHING TECHNIQUE
Will,
I think that you are being “far too modest” with your most-recent post…..
You “accidentally on purpose” forgot to mention that this “Cha-Ching” technique is the very-same war-fighting technique which was used, to very great effect, by the “good old US of A” to win the First Cold War (1945-89) …….
For the benefit of all you youngsters (all those under 55) who are reading this on NL, I shall now recap on how the USA’s deployment of the Cha-Ching technique ended the First Cold War….:
The 1980 American presidential election campaign was dominated by just three topics:
Then, in the middle of that 1980 election campaign, came the debacle at Desert One inside Iran (a “battle” in which the three US armed services all conclusively proved only one thing: that they were all better at bureaucratic in-fighting than they were at fighting the Iranian enemy…..)
Thus, in late autumn 1980, the long-standing avowed anti-communist republican candidate called Ronnie Raygun was voted in as the then-new US President.
On Ronnie’s inauguration day – and they timed this move so as to quite deliberately humiliate the departing President Jimmy Carter – the Iranian’s released their American Embassy’s hostages…..
——————————————-
Thus, on his first afternoon alone in the Oval Office, Ronnie sat is his armchair and thought to himself:
“Right. We can’t outfight the Russians and Iranian’s. We can’t outsmart the Russians and Iranian’s. We can’t outflank the Russians and Iranian’s. The only possible way to beat them is the all-American way…
…..we shall use the Cha-Ching technique”
That started with the Pentagon’s 1981 budget, which – as General’s Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf (Note 1) both later recalled in their two best-selling autobiographies – was the only DoD budget ever in recorded history where all three of the US armed services all got more than their original wish list of shiny new equipment…..
Over the next ten years, trillions of dollars were poured into the US DoD….
The veil of secrecy surrounding this Cha-Ching technique was only partially lifted in 1986 – when the movie Top Gun was released. ….
.
Thus the USA’s use of the Cha-Ching technique ended the First Cold War in three phases:
To conclude:
Beating Evil Empire’s – whilst spending lots of other people’s money and also never missing out on a single afternoon siesta (i.e. asleep in the Oval office) is a political technique which President Ronnie R developed into an art form
However Ronnie publicly called his Cha-Ching technique “statesmanship”
regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
Note 1. Not yet “Storming”. That prefix would only be added ten years later
Ummm….well, that all sounds pretty accurate to this ‘murican. A bit of nuance missing here and there, of course, but that’s to be expected when the writer is a dispassionate observer from Across The Pond. In other words, well said, old bean! Jolly good, wot-wot, and all that.
Do you think the replacements are ASTER 30 Block 1? It would make sense to provide upgraded missiles with ABM capabilities. She would not need the Sea Viper Evolution to use the upgraded missile as it is only a missile warhead and software upgrade.
Without spectulating too much i’d say no – they will replenish with what they have and what they know works.
They arent advanced ballistic missiles, either short range or modified AA missiles used in a high arc to become anti ship weapons
https://www.twz.com/the-anti-ship-missile-arsenal-houthis-are-firing-into-the-red-sea
Gibraltar is still a very important and extremely useful UK overseas possession. I realize that Spain is a fellow NATO member and all that, but they have never really stopped carping about how they want “The Rock” back, and the garrison at Gibraltar these days is almost nonexistent. Just sayin’.
Spain saying they want Gib back and having ships sail close is their equivalent to when HMG “put the RN in charge of anti small boat work in the channel”. Both are examples of political theatre for the benefit of a particular part of the domestic electorate.
You’ll be suggesting we should station troops in Bewick Upon Tweed in case the Scots make a move on it…
When did the Shetlands become ‘scottish’ is more of interesting question. Dont most of the islands have norse names
Well they and Orkneys joined the Kingdom of Scotland in 1472 over a dowry dispute with the Kingdom of Norway. That said, they both regard the Scottish Government in Edinburgh with the same contempt the SNP has towards Westminster. The vast majority of councils for both are independents, with only 1 SNP councillor on the two councils combined.
It’s been mooted that should Scotland ever gain independence, the Islands would want an independence referendum of their own, to leave Scotland and rejoin the U.K.
Good to hear.
Again this is coming from an American who doesn’t claim to be an expert, but: the SNP does not strike me as particularly rational about pretty much anything. I have both Scottish and English ancestry on my mother’s side and as far as I’m concerned, Scotland is completely out of its mind if it really “thinks” that “independence” from the UK is a better deal. If that happens, Scotland will be exchanging the UK Prime Minister and Monarch in favor of becoming a Franco-German satrapy. At best.
Yes, I realize those are fighting words for some around here. Deal with it.
It seems that way too many here too.
I am not a Unionist. I don’t care if they leave the UK or stop. All I am concerned about is that we English don’t pay for it. The island groups shoud decide their own direction too.
The Shetlands/Orkneys have a personal interest for me with ancestry from there – hoping to visit later this year when it gets a bit warmer up there!!
The SNP are irrational and pretty incompetent as the people of Scotland have learned after suffering effectively a one-party state since 2007. They lost their majority at the last election, and will probably see further losses if Starmer can convince people Labour are remotely credible.
A Scottish Independence Referendum requires the consent of the U.K. PM. After the wobbles of the 2014 one, and the impact of the Brexit one, no sane PM is going to give permission.
That said, we’ve had some barking mad party-leaders;- Truss, Corbyn, etc…
Worth a read after the hysterical coverage in the media recently.
Gov.uk
Chief of the Defence Staff Admiral Sir Tony Radakin gave a keynote speech at Chatham House Security and Defence Conference on 27 February 2024.
All
Whilst staying on the subject of the subject of naval base which are are not on the UK mainland being very operationally useful…………
These are just two of the numerous media commentaries published last summer.
These all pointed out that the residents of the Orkney islands were extremely unhappy with the way that their local services were being very poorly run by the devolved Skoosh government (in far-away Edinburgh).
Thus the Orkney islanders were suggesting self-governance or even independence from Scotland!
Given that the huge anchorage at Scapa Flow proved to be an extremely useful base for the Royal Navy during the two previous world wars; are they any thoughts on whether the RN should now be covertly supporting the “Popular Front for the Liberation of the Orkneys” in their bid to leave Scotland?
After all, under international law, these islanders do have the right for self-determination!
regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
Same with the Shetlands and Outer Hebridies too.
One SNP MSP with a very English voice said a few months back that Shetlanders who were unhappy with the devolved government shoud move to England.
Not hard to imagine the Scottish region carved up into Crown Dependencies.
The Shetlands and Orkneys have complained about incompetence in Edinburgh giving them a raw deal. If you look at the two councils, there is but a single SNP councillor. The majority are independents.
During the Scottish Referendum the case was being made that if the vote went for independence, then the islands would seek separation from Scotland and remaining within the U.K.
If Shetlands and Outer Hebridies, leave Scotland,
they’d revert to the previous rulers, not the English,
The King of Norway. Maybe a reconstituted Kingdom of the Isles
could join the EU ?
Isle of Man style beckons if Britain plays its cards right, better than being under the thumb of the kirk and the clan
Yes. Because an economy based on fisheries who were unhappy with EU boats in their waters would rush to join the EU.
All
All in all, these suggestions (just made by others above) sound like the beginnings of a very cunning plan:
and therefore, with Scottish (i.e. SNP) tax revenues having just fallen off a cliff, the SNP in Holyrood will soon be begging the Royal Navy to stay put at Faslane = because that base supports thousand of jobs!
All in all, this sounds like an ideal example to try out the new ideas for the projection of 21st Century sea power!
One gunboat into Scapa Flow = to show support their independence campaign and self determination for Orkney and Shetland islanders!
What could possibly go wrong?????
regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
No they wouldn’t “revert to the previous rulers”, that concept went out when parts of countries changed hands with the marriage of royalty. The islanders have the right of self-determination, the principle we defended in 1982.
No they would not, the are part of the UK if they wished to stay part of the Uk they would.
That’s Putin think. On that basis we could go and claim back chunks of the world if the locals weren’t happy in say Florida which was British for a short while after the colonies changed allegiance. Hmm interesting thought though.
Interesting comments. That said I fail to understand the rationale behind having a forward military base such as in Cyprus which falls well within a radius of a potential enemy’s military capabilities. Having one well beyond the lethality capable radius of Russia and Iran, with the exception of certain ballistic missiles, is the right thing to do.
If your bases aren’t in range of the enemy, then the enemy probably isn’t in range of you either…
Because it can allow us to spy on Russia as well as have an RAF presence that can impact across the eastern med and into the Middle East.
Its too late for the UK to go round opening up new bases. Suda Bay is only a NATO Navy base. The bases on Cyprus are Sovereign UK territory like Guatanamo Bay. It has its uses and has a decent runway and facilities. That’s about all I know.