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fvf

Shows that a forward deployed LRG(S) really needs an escort.

Jon

This was raised to some extent in Heappey’s evidence to the Select Commitee. The Committee asked the question what will replace Duncan in the area? While Heappey wouldn’t be drawn, I did wonder if a T23’s mushroom farm would be enough to cover two other ships, or given that LRG(S) is off Cyprus, there’s an active airbase and presumably a certain amount of ground-based air defence cover.

I wonder what constitutes enough, if we are looking at maybe Hizbolla or Hamas having a pop with a few missiles or drones. [If LRG(S) continues on deployment through Suez, I suppose we’d have to include Houthis in that list.]

fvf

BZ HMS Ducan and her crew,
nine months in a T45,
in the hot med,
with half of her crew on their first deployment.
Interesting that the a non PIP ship, and the most netorously mulfunctioning one at that, is going.

Supportive Bloke

T45 does have pretty good air handling / cooling in crew spaces.

There have been lots of work around pre PiP which cured the main reliability issue. PiP is a belt and braces solution that also allows headroom for potential DEW.

Worse places to be than the Med – good runs ashore and the young like the sun?

I hope that the crew has been rotated in stages – is that a thing with T45?

Great to see these three fantastic T45 serving UK interests.

Last edited 2 months ago by Supportive Bloke
David Graham

Agree re the Med. I live in Cyprus, but have served in the Gulf and the FES in days of old. It’s never really unsustainably hot in the Eastern Med. Lived and worked in Yemen before I retired, lots of time on the coast and up towards Oman, so i know what hot is like.

Like you, good to see T45s doing their bit.

Duker

Winter in the Gulf can be the opposite of a hot desert climate, especially damp foggy days

DubaiFog21
Duck test

They are scratching the bottom of the barrow

Supportive Bloke

Errrrr

So the threat is missiles from hot heads.

So you send the best missile pocket out there to deal with it.

How is that the bottom of the barrel?

Duck test

How many of these T45 ships can be scraped up for the Gulf when some are laid up, some are in maintenance, and some are for carriers’ escort? Only by cannibalizing the carrier’s AA escort.

Supportive Bloke

Three are serviceable ATM.

Two are close to being back into service.

One is properly in bits.

50% operationally deployed is actually very good. My main concern is wear and tear on the crews from long deployments. Provided the two due to return to service – return to service as projected before the next ship enters PiP then it is all good.

So I guess you would rather that a T45 was sat on the wall waiting just in case QEC needed to be deployed to the Gulf or somewhere else?

But I am sure you would moan that it was on the wall?

I suspect it was sent to show that it was deployable as much as anything else. There is a message in there. T45 is a very potent system and everyone knows that. The propulsion issues are a distraction from everything else that is so good.

Lucan

It is painfully obvious that there are not enough ships and manpower with RN.
Not even the 1SL has your Self-congratulation attitude.

Supportive Bloke

I didn’t say there were enough ships?

I am saying that RN has finally been given the impetus and money to fix what is to hand?

So T45 is finally highly serviceable.

We should have a surface fleet of 30 fighting ships for the taskings envisaged.

Lucan

We should have a surface fleet of 30 fighting ships for the taskings envisaged.

Who is moaning?

Last edited 2 months ago by Lucan
Jonno

Most of us are but finding the money and building up fleet numbers, recruiting and training crews doesn’t come at the flick of a switch.

Duker

The 7th T45

MISC-Portsdown-Hill1
Greta Thunderpants

I think it’s twelve. 4 in the eastern Med, 4 in North Atlantic waters and the other 4 East of Suez…… That leaves the other 18 for Maintenance, PIP and Training……. Oh hang on, where you talking about 1946 ?

Greta Thunderpants

Barrel ?

Sean

What is that even supposed to mean?!? Please try again in the Kings English.

stephen ball

We need more ships. At least 8 type 83
Would like another 2 type 26 but depending on when we start building type 83.

Supportive Bloke

T26 could be built a lot faster if built to a fully commercial drumbeat as BAE offered in the first place. The present sclerotic build is totally down to cash flow management at RN end.

I wouldn’t be surprised if, given AUS and CAN production we don’t order a follow on batch of two to three given the geopolitical mess that is emerging.

I am reliably informed that production of T26 has been accelerated due to the growing T23 issues.

All of this comes down to money….not actually huge amounts of money either…..

Peter

A more pragmatic solution to increasing the number of RN frigate hulls would be to build a follow-on batch of 3 or so Type 31 frigates, configured for A/S operations with sonar and some limited technical changes for quieter running etc. These vessels would not be as capable as additional Type 26 ships, but would have the advantages of being lower cost, requiring fewer crew, and probably available earlier. 

Grant

T32 should be an AAW focused T31 and then squeeze more T26s into that build schedule. And more helicopters and F35s. And reactivate the Waves…

ATH

First work out how to get the money and people, then play fantasy fleets.

Greta Thunderpants

Lol.

SailorBoy

T32 should be even lighter than 31, with mission bay. To be built in numbers to replace Rivers & as ASW escorts with sonar.
AAW T32 would mean less money for T83, which is a much more promising programme with potential for 8-10 hulls.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

I have been thinking more along the lines that we should have built six Absalon based ships and not ones based on Iver Huitfeldt. Big enough to keep up with the carriers and with global range; capable of 500 mile daily jumps. Better flight deck arrangements. Space aft for TAS / VDS. Volume for more stores.

We really only need smaller ships for the Gulf. And a sensible British government would be moving us away from that region.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

What we built when the RN was big enough to have ships built for the Gulf…
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Harkens

Ah yes, Type 81 Tribal class, 2300 tons “second rate” ships used for colonial duties.
A  ‘multi-role’ vessel for ‘gunboat’ duties, was supposed to be built cheaply but costs escalated so instead of 20 only 7 were built.
This seems to be a recurring story with the RN.

Duker

Was still quite advanced for a late 50s frigate. Decent air search radar T965, Sea cat missiles, bunk sleeping – air conditioning, limited helicopter capability ( Wasp, but no hangar), Limbo ASW and steam and gas turbine propulsion. The dual 4.5 in guns were the only 40s throwback being taken from scrapped destroyers but only needed for shore bombardment.
Dont see how it was seen as being ‘cheap’ other than a single shaft/recycled 4.5in as they were similar size to the Whitbys. The unbuilt T17 was the actual cheap frigate design. Unlike T12 they werent modernised so seemed older at end of life

Éowyn

Seacat missiles did not enter service until the 1960s and became obsolete by the 1970s

Last edited 2 months ago by Éowyn
Duker

It was designed for them but only 1 fitted when delivered the others after. Every weapons system becomes partially obsolete when first in service (Seacat was worlds first missile PDS) which is why Seacat was upgraded into improved versions but not oldest versions

AlexS

Seacat were born obsolete. Maybe they would have had some success with WW2 speeds…

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Wasp, but no hangar

The hangar was below the flight deck which was an elevator.
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David MacDonald

I would agree with that but ships need sailors and the recruiting, in both numbers and quality, needs to be greatly improved. Retention needs to be addressed too.
The RN remains hopelessly top heavy with too many admirals and more commodores than you can shake a stick at.

ATH

You can look at the number of higher ranked officers as a way to pay sufficient money to keep very good people in the service well into their 50’s. I suspect cash either through rank of basic pay will need to be a big part of the solution to the RN/military personnel problem. The issue is how to use money to solve the militaries problem whilst arguing that it’s not the solution to the NHS/Education/most of the public services personnel shortages. I don’t think that’s a winnable argument. This is a huge problem for a government the is caught between its backbenchers rabid demands for tax cuts and its worries over another “Truss style” collapse in market confidence in the stability of the government finances. Not an easy problem to solve and probably one that will get put off till after the election.

Supportive Bloke

The issue is that services pay us a fraction of NHS or teachers pay at 3 yrs in level.

Money isn’t the biggest issue TBH. It is the chaotic environment and never knowing when you are going to see loved ones due to things being over lean and over committed….

ATH

Is that skill/education level to skill/education level and does it take account of free/subsidised food accommodation? Nurse/teacher roles these days need a degree or equivalent (and a pile of student debt) so you would be comparing them to junior officers.

Supportive Bloke

Reason I’m saying Yr 3 is that by then each matelot has a trade. Same with officers. Junior officers with degree are not well paid by outside standards.

The ‘accommodation or food’ provided is not exactly 5* so I’m not sure you can say that it is worth a chunk of pay. I’m sure it varies from ship to ship and chef to chef (or whatever they are called these days) but food was, to put it politely, variable.

Duker

Not everyone is foodies- a middle aged affectation-and variety is more important than gourmet. For twenty somethings in civilian life are more likely to have fast food for convenience, so thats the standard. So having the prepared at set times and being able to eat and then leave is a big advantage. Depending on location can still go to cafes-chain pubs- restaurants for eating/socialising

Grant

Public sector frontline – woefully underpaid.
Public sector management – woefully overpaid.

David MacDonald

Pay is one thing and rank is another. If there is a requirement to keep more senior captains (or commanders) running the RN then pay senior captains and commanders more. A top heavy management structure tends to lead to excessive bureaucracy and inhibit decision making. Ditto the other three services.
When, many decades ago, I was serving in the RN I used to suggest we should all be demoted one rank but paid the same; for some reason this idea was not very popular! 

OkamsRazor

You do realise that this is a global problem amongst at least G20. It would be interesting for some of the ex’s with valuable experience to suggest a few workable solutions.

Tyfing

Have you any proof? G20?

OkamsRazor

Well I read various blogs and newsfeeds and gov/audit reports from various countries including US/AUS/France/Asian etc and it does seem like a general thing. But correct me if I’m wrong……

Tyfing

What blogs, and reports?

OkamsRazor

Well as I have hundreds of documents going back many years, try Googling if you want info.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

OkamsRazor

As you have recently given me some excellent advice on radar technology, one favour deserves another…………..

So, in return:

Please find attached the three key sources of the various management studies of having “too many Chiefs and not enough Indians” in the Royal Navy.

As all three predate the new fangled IT(Internet Thingy) you will probably not find too many direct links to post-2000 links.

  • Geedes Axe
  • About three years after the end of World War One, a top executive from the UK’s biggest company (who was the world’s leading expert on industrial reorganisations and productivity) was brought in by the government to review the Royal Navy.
  • He noticed that the “downsized” Navy had paid off many ships and laid off all the matelots in 1919-20.
  • However, in the two years after WW1 ended, the RN had retained all of the officers. Thus, by 2021, the RN had far too many officers.
  • Soon afterwards over 2,000 RN officers were forcibly retired, across all ranks.
  • The Peter Principle (note 1)
  • A paperback book, intended by its author to be satire. It is very sarcastic, throughout.
  • However, very soon after it was first published in 1969, it became a best seller
  • This book explains why, in all types of organisations, most people are promoted to rise one rank (grade) above their level of personal competence, up to a level where they become incompetent mangers and leaders.
  • Well worth a read!
  • Parkinson’s Law
  • However, THE definite study of the negative effects of having too many senior officers in the RN was done by a “interesting character” called C Northcote Parkinson,
  • Parkinson had been the top lecturers at Dartmouth Naval college and one of the earliest officers to serve “tri-service” during WW2
  • His study in the 1958 resulted in Parkinson’s Law, which is still taught today
  • Thus the three tables in this link will give you allthe dat you need:
  • https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1994/december-1/challenging-parkinsons-law

When it was first published in 1994, this particular United States Navy Institute (USNI) paper was one which was very heavily studied by myself and my team .That a because, coincidentally at that time, we were trying hard” to set up the “then new” Joint Service Command and Staff College (JSCSC) at Shrivenham in Wiltshire. That is today, the first Defence University for training all senior officers from all three of the UK armed services.(i.e. in the Navy: all above the rank of commodore)

Mr Parkinson was spot-on!

regards Peter The Irate Taxpayer

Note 1.That Peter is not one of my relations!

Duker

Thanks for that . However JSCSC also does intermediate level officer courses…

The Intermediate Command and Staff Course (Maritime) – known as ICSC(M) – provides world class intermediate command and staff training and education for naval officers and their civilian counterparts to support the operational effectiveness of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

https://www.da.mod.uk/study-with-us/colleges-and-schools/joint-services-command-and-staff-college

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Quite correct:

However you have not made the distinction between then and now.

  • You are referring to “now”.
  • In my post, I was referring to “then” (mid 1990’s)

During the 1990’s – so when first set up in temporary accommodation, then the permanent facility built (the building shown in your link) and finally that permanent building fully occupied (late 1990’s) – as initially conceived, JSCSC was only ever planned for the senior ranks in the three services.

As an aside, back in the mid 1990’s it was not even planned that any RFA officers at all would be permanently enrolled (except as day visitors attending a very occasional RN sponsored / run course).

However, subsequently over the past two decades, the extent of the courses provided by JSCSC has expanded. Thus they now include those for more junior officer ranks (Note. which I have no problem whatsoever).

I hope that makes things clear.

Thus we are both correct!

regards Peter The Irate Taxpayer

Gavin Gordon

In answer to just your first paragraph, David. Though they also have crewing issues, a shout out to the civilians of the increasingly called upon RFA is well due. For clarity, I do speak as former RN, albeit decades back.

Gunbuster

So lets take some global companies with around the same MOD budget totals give or take a few bil

CISCO
SONY
CANON
DIOR
UPS
Catapillar
MAERSK

Do they have to many top level managers as well managing budget and programmes??

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Could you perhaps give a comparable break down mapping their management and pay structures against the RN’s rank and pay structures?

Government is not business.

Though senior ranks verses ship numbers is a spurious comparison so is comparing commercial entities to armed services.

What is needed perhaps is comparison between the RN and similar sized navies such as the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Force or Marina Militare.

Olii

Is not going to happen, just keep fantasizing. Do you vote Labour or Tories?

Will

That depends on whether you view the T83 as a destroyer or a cruiser. If it ends up being as large as some projections have it, the 83’s are clearly cruisers. Specifically, AAW flagships tasked primarily with protecting the carriers.

Therefore, how about building four (4) T83s—two for each carrier, essentially—and then replacing the T45 with 8 modified T26? Best of both worlds and you save on R&D costs by using an existing baseline design.

Barry Larking

Hopefully a quiet word with the Mad Mullahs about how far and no further. What am I thinking!? Look at the west’s leadership.

Duker

Hamas is financed, backed and controlled by Iran” – NL
Complete nonsense.

Hezbollah in Lebabon is the Iranian backed Shiite group.

Hamas is Sunni and is financed by Qatar but isnt controlled by Iran at all. Even the US says they are certain Tehran had no knowledge of the attack
Its like saying is Israel financed backed and controlled by USA . ROFL

Greta Thunderpants

You normally at this point. copy and paste something to back up your claims, I’m still waiting. Should be pretty interesting though.

Jon

It all makes sense now. America is controlled by the Elders of Zion, while Israel is controlled by the Fathers of the Daughters of the American Revolution. (Not to be confused with the Second Cousins of the Fathers of the American Revolution, Seattle branch — splitters!) While the shadowy figure know only as Charles from Windsor is thought to be the puppet-master behind it all.

It all get very confusing. Do you think the Iranians have playing cards showing Fatwah-indicted Western leadership, or some other memory aid so they know who to blame? I can’t seem to find a pack on Amazon.

AlexS

Hamas is certainly financed and backed by Iran, that is why you see Iranian weapons. That said Hamas is Muslim Brotherhood so they have a degree of independence from Iran.

Airborne

I see the number of minimum post, limited knowledge trolls is increasing. Getting sad, also happening on UKDJ but not as many fortunately. There’s a difference between commenting in a negative way and proposing a solution during a debate, than gobbing off in badly worded/spelt English slagging off the RN and its efforts and plans continuously.

SailorBoy

I agree, I haven’t been around for long but of what I’ve seen, the worst thing about this excellent site (along with UKDJ) is that some people don’t want constuctive arguments or replies, or even to educate and inform others, they just want to vent their anger about the world in general, and other people in particular

Airborne

Spot on, alas the Internet, and certainly social media is awash with trolls, saddos and muppets!

Theoden

Just ignore them. Like every woman they’ve ever met does.

Airborne

lol agreed ????

Sean

While UKDJ is good for breaking news, for the really in depth articles Navy Lookout has always been my favourite. However over the 3 or 4 weeks it does seem to have started to attract more trolls and conspiracy theorists. I wonder whether its an organised effort, or whether the conspiracy/troll community have simply only just become aware of it – they tend to flock together like sheep…