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N-a-B

She’s looking tired now. Not surprising given she was delivered 31 years ago.

David MacDonald

But quite good when you remember she was designed only for about 20.

Chrislondon

She was designed for a service life of 18yrs,
It is just part of why i see the T23 as one of or the best RN design of my lifetime.

Tomartyr

“Crypto Modernised system.”
So the command chain is on the blockchain? Well I’ll be damned

Dukeofurl

Cryptographic doesnt mean block chain- which in spite of what people think is easily traced along the ‘chain’
Cryptology for military comms is just codes.

Mousekid

Cracking stuff from Richmond! Link 16 Crypto Mod and a cheeky bit of JREAP? That’s not an upgrade—that’s a full-blown neural awakening. Served aboard Iron Duke—Dukey to those of us who knew her curves—and I can tell you, back then we passed targeting data slower than a killick on his second tot.

Now Richmond’s flinging threat info across satellites like confetti at a fleet wedding. BLOS comms, rapid targeting handoffs, proper 21st-century punch. Big BZ to the crew and tech teams for squeezing all that modern kit into a ship that’s seen more years than a wardroom port decanter.

She’s not Dukey, but she’s definitely strutting like she is. Love it.

Sean

Plus her Wild Cat was previously upgraded with Link 16.

Jon

I thought she carried a Merlin, but did we ever get confirmation that the RN Wildcat tdl upgrades were complete? Does that also go for the Army Wildcat upgrades?

Sean

She can carry either. It was a Wildcat when in the Red Sea last-year, but then a Merlin when she was monitoring the transit of the PLAN warships. I imagine for CSG it’ll probably be a Wild Cat.

It’s been reported the RN Wildcats all got Link 16 upgrades. However the TDL project was joint Army & Navy, so unless there’s been a policy change the army Wildcats should either have either been upgraded or still part way through the upgrade.

Supportive Bloke

More likely she will carry Merlin in ASW role and T45 will carry Wildcat. Argus and Tide Spring also have good aviation capabilities and spots. So there could be plenty of cabs off PoW leaving the big deck free to optimise F35B activities.

Hugo

As I understand the Merlin’s are usually based off the carrier and the escorts usually have wildcats for CSGS

Supportive Bloke

Maybe.

But if a T23 is off persecuting a co fact then a Merlin would be more than handy.

I wonder if they can be swapped over as needed for changing taskings?

Hugo

Wouldn’t be that hard. ASW 23s work most the time with a Merlin

Sean

Is it confirmed Argus is going on CSG too?

Supportive Bloke

Yes, it has been announced.

Which is why I’m wondering what cabs would be embarked?

Argus is an aviation support vessel as well as being a hospital ship. I’d have preferred to send Fort Vic….there has to be a reason why and it won’t just be money or crew. Failing to regenerate Fort Vic sends a very clear message about fleet and people (mis)management.

I also think that active cab numbers will need to be built up as with the shrunk fleet it is likely that flying opportunities at sea have been limited.

I’ll be interested to see if a Chinook or two are sent for VERTREP or if the Merlin’s are used for that to gain flying hours?

Sean

Just seen Argus will join later on…

I wonder if they’re going to use her as a make-do solid-stores ship, using vertrep from her large aviation deck to make up for lack of RAS gantries.

Jason

Doubt. Army Wilcats are poor brothers. Only heavy machine gun or sniper. No Martlet

Jason

And no radar.

Jon

Still! They were going to add a radar, similar Seaspray as the Navy’s. What happened?

Pongoglo

Richmond’s looking pretty punchy for a thirty year old shiip, Link 16 plus NSM and additional .50 cal Brownings too. Anyone got any ideas when we’re likely to see NSM on a T45?

Hugo

Probably dragon first, maybe Duncan next?

Jason

I thought Duncan has no crew and is docked.

Hugo

Duncan is post deployment maintenance.
Defender and Diamond are deep refit
Daring is super long regen.
Dauntless deploying and Dragon in trials

Supportive Bloke

Can’t really understand the silence on Daring’s regeneration.

I know she was quite badly stripped of parts.

I suspect it is all about the balance between getting the others PiP’d and upgraded without continuing the idiotic STOROB rotations.

It will mostly about the limited specialist trades and teams from BAE that are having to be built up to support SEA VIPER upgrades and fixing Daring from teams that were reduced to minimum viable numbers….to save ££££.

Jimmy Jones

That’s not good.

Supportive Bloke

Three are deployable.

Two are very non deployable one more than the other as it has holes in it.

One is an eternal mystery.

Jonno

I’m glad the powers have at long last decided to go all MML. I’m not expert but I can see the importance. I hope the T31’s are included in all this at an early stage as they are likely escorts for various duties in the Indo-Pacific which is taking on an increasing prominence.

Jon

The link capabilities in MML have been decades in coming. We were talking about network-enabled capability, NEC, back in the 2002 SDR update and it’s not like the need for bandwidth is going away. It’s nice we are starting to deliver a little more of it in 2025. If the T31s or T26s have been specified without this level of connectivity, I’d be very disappointed.

Otterman

Maybe she can do a double test and trial this as part of an NSM launch?

Hugo

Against what? Hardly like we have NSMs going spare either

Otterman

I think a barge with a stack of shipping containers is the usual target if you don’t have something lined up to sink.

We should have a few, enough that 1-2 isn’t the end of the world. Might be better to have 23 and confidence than 24 (3×8). Australia and the US tested when they first installed them.

Supportive Bloke

We bought 88 missiles and maybe more.

I’d suggest at least one has been expended in trials.

Hugo

They would’ve announced trials

Supportive Bloke

There will have been a test firing on the Konsberg range otherwise it wouldn’t be deployable.

The days of everything being announced are in the past….

Hugo

It’s really not. The RN knows it’s publicly toothless and would be keen to disaude that notion

Duker

Not so
‘The RN told Naval News“HMS Somerset has received the Royal Navy’s first delivery of the Naval Strike Missile, reaching IOC with the weapon system, and marking a new chapter in the surface fleet’s offensive capability. This milestone ensures the Navy continues to have a surface strike capability beyond the Harpoon out of service date.”
“The completion of a comprehensive trials package will culminate in a live firing and full operational acceptance in 2024.”
Edit Mechanical problems with Somerset delayed the live fire exercise -apparently

Last edited 26 days ago by Duker
Paul

Does the satellite usage – JREAP – depend upon sovereign UK satellites – or instead US ones ?

Sean

JREAP-C via satellites such as UK’s military Skynet or even commercial (eg Inmarsat).

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Paul

  • Imaging

This official annoucement from eight weeks ago may be of interest to you

New satellite deal to boost military operations, jobs and growth – GOV.UK

  • Secure Tactical Battlefield Communications

This official annoucement from eight weeks ago may also be of interest to you

Revolutionising Tactical Communications Security in Defence – Case study – GOV.UK

Note how DASA have not even considered evaluating this system for use by either the RN or RAF…

  • Global Communications

Back in 2020, under the visionary leadership of Boris J’s pet nutter, Demonic Cummings, the UK spent a lot of taxpayer money on a global sateliite system

= it was touted as rivalling starlink

UK government to acquire cutting-edge satellite network – GOV.UK

Of course, nobody in whitehall saw the potential of using it for the RN…..

So, a few years laters, the UK sold it off = at a sodding great financial loss!

OneWeb merger with Eutelsat – GOV.UK

  • Overall UK Space Policy

Of course, overall, the sheer importance of the UK now having a sovereign national capability to fight a war in space (launchers, comms and imaging etc etc) is well beyond the ability of our low-tech officers, politicians and MOD civil servants to understand

A properly joined up high-tech policy is nowdays especially necessary

  • mainly because we now have a foreign secretary who regularly falls out with the private owner of the world’s largest space launcher company (SpaceX) and whom is also the private owner of the world’s largest satelitte communications network (Starlink)

David Lammy gives four-word message to Elon Musk over ‘mistruths’ – The Mirror

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS

This is the inside line on what the Treasury are now proposing – under the ongoing 2025 SDR review – for a 6th generation UK sovereign secure naval tactical communications system; obviously made using UK based manufacturing facilities

  • Top Secret Codename: SPARTANS

String Pots And Rope ‘ Tween Autonomous Naval Ships

Two cans and a string | HowStuffWorks

Sean

• Oberon is surveillance satellites not communications.

• You don’t seem to understand the difference between “sell” and “merge”. OneWeb and Eutelsat have merged to create a larger entity with deeper capabilities: OneWeb provides LEO and Eutelsat provides geostationary.
So your claim,

“the UK sold it off = at a sodding great financial loss!”

is at best a hilarious blunder on your part or a bare-faced lie. If you bothered to read the link you posted you see HMG retains its special share in the new entity.

The wisdom of purchasing OneWeb would be obvious if you’d followed the UK’s need for an independent alternative to GPS and Galileo. Through work from the NPL, OneWeb developed Astra, a software based positioning, navigation, and timing (PNT) service via its existing satellites that is compatible with existing GPS ground systems.
This was the specific reason why HMG rescued OneWeb on the advice of the Chief Scientist. Compare the cost to Galileo’s €10billion…
So you’re obviously wrong with your claim

“nobody in whitehall saw the potential of using it for the RN”

As for launch capabilities. HMG was obviously thinking that any OneWeb satellites (150kg size) destroyed during conflict could be rapidly replaced using Virgin Orbit from Cornwall (300kg max). Which is why an RAF pilot was attached to Virgin Orbit’s operations. Unfortunately Orbit couldn’t secure the funding after the launch failure from Cornwall.
(Arguably HMG should have bought Virgin Orbit, the assets went for only £36million.)

Hopefully the vertical launchers being planned for the UK will provide similar capability. Though none will have the speed of preparation for launch that Virgin Orbit’s 747 had.

Paul

Thanks to Peter starting this thread and Sean adding more info.

I’m interested in finding out if OneWeb satellites are now used by RN?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Sean

  • Imaging

The heading directly over my link (to paul) about oberon quite clearly said “imaging”

…. so yes I do understand that these are imaging satelites

(Note: please do tell me that they not still using Kodakchrome film!)

  • Communications

Here from the horses mouth, the list of offical annoucements – as published on gov.uk website – about the Oneweb fiscal disaster

  • July 2020 the orginal purchase

UK government secures satellite network OneWeb – GOV.UK

  • then, just two years later, the 2022 merger

OneWeb merger with Eutelsat – GOV.UK

  • which most people would call as a distress, or fire, sale……

Then this report, very widely publicised at the time, from the Treasury Select Committee

Now, correct me if I am wrong, however a quarter of a billion pound loss is a lot of money!

(and that was after the figures were massarged!)

  • so just maybe, before signing the contract, Demonic Cummings should have just gone to Specsavers?
  • or just given Oneweb to the RN…..and the RAF… and the Army

———————————–e

Meanwhile, in 2023, so just one year later – one of the two usual suspects in defence contracting (i.e. one of two big contractors beginning with the letter “B”) gets awarded a very large contract

……to run the UK defence communications systems – the one called Skynet

Babcock awarded contract to operate Skynet – the MOD satellite communications system – Babcock International Group

—————————–

Meanwhile, all three UK armed services carry on in their own sweet ways…. each one developing their own unique new radio systems

This one, back in 2022, was announced at almost exactly the same time as the Oneweb merger was announced

British Army seeks radio systems integrator

Following by this one

….. from the tie wearing tossers at RUSI = now getting very excited…..

Upgrading the British Army’s Tactical Communications: What Next? | Royal United Services Institute

Then, after another quarter of a billion quid gets spent on the Army’s Morpheus system

……it gets cancelled in 2024!

UK MoD cancels Morpheus EvO comms system contract – European Security & Defence

  • Space Launchers

As you quite rightly note, following Beardy Branson’s use of the Virgin Oribit launcher as a giant Guy Fawkes night fireworks display just off the Surfers paradise of Newquay Beach…..

  • the UK now does not have a sovereign space launcher

CONCLUSION

  • all this time effort and money being spent on communications systems that do not commuicate
  • so, as of today, us taxpayers have nowt to show for this huge amount of money very recently piddled up against the wall
  • = so completely and utterly wasted by Q branch
  • just on abortive government / military communications systems!
  • All in all, I think I was 100% right first time = on all counts

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

  • PS
  • and please don’t ever try to tell me that the UK and RN uses oneweb satelites for military geolocation….and therefore that the UK does still not use the US of A’s GPS system!….. because, if you do = I will call you a l**r
  • Footnote
  • Morpheus was the ancient greek god of sleeping and dreams – so it was a very appropriate codename to use for an expensive new UK military radio system…i.e. one that was dreamt up by people working for MOD and DES – who were found to be both living in fairyland and also were asleep on the job…
Sean

Why do you post links to articles but not actually read them??? Or do you hope everyone on here is too lazy and will believe your version of what they say?
The U.K. has not lost £200million on OneWeb’s as you hysterically claim. The official interviewed stated that the current valuation of the share was down £160million. UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY SELL THE SHARE YOU HAVEN’T LOST ANY MONEY.
And as anyone with a pension or share-based investments knows, the values go up and down all the time: particularly if you have an economic illiterate in the White House.

Of course although I’ve now proven you wrong twice, you’re not man enough to admit it.
• you claimed a “sale” it was a merger
• you claimed “lost money” the share price dipped

I wonder what else we’d find was inaccurate or untrue if we dug into all your hysterical claims…

I never said the RN was using OneWeb’s Astra for PNT. As we know the RN takes an age in investigating and trialling new systems. Given Astra was only launched in September it’d be miraculous if it were being used by the RN already. It’s seen as a complementary system to GPS and Galileo which will both be targeted by jamming or destruction in wartime. The advantage with OneWeb’s being its LEO satellites are more easily replaced than GPS geostationary satellites. Which is why the US military is also interested in having access to Astra.

The U.K. hasn’t had a sovereign space launcher since Black Arrow in 1971, which was launched from Australia… So we survived 50 years and peak of the Cold War without one – as did most of our allies. Yet we’ve still had several generations of Skynet plus surveillance satellites, etc without a ‘sovereign launcher’.

Meanwhile…
• Obex is developing a rocket to launch 180Kg satellites from Scotland
• Glasgow based Skyrora is developing a three stage launch vehicle (315Kg payload)
• Astraius will be conducting horizontal launches from Prestwick like Virgin Orbit but using a C17 instead of 747. Payload from 470Kg to 800Kg.

(I’ve only listed those with planned launches in the next 18 months and capable of carrying, for example OneWeb’s satellites…)

But I know that facts don’t prevent your hysterical rants. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I also suspect most people on this site will rate the opinions of the “tie wearing tossers at RUSI” (as you describe them), over your erratic, inaccurate, accusatory, rants.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Sean

  • UK Government Financial Losses on Oneweb

This was not just my own opinion.

= this was very widely reported from the Treasury Select Committtee (a very important committee of MP’s, one which only ever looks into “big fiscal losses”).

And so, my own opinions about Oneweb are not, as you so very nicely put it (directly above), my very own “hysterical rants”.

  • You are the one (and only?) outlier here…..

….because my opinions on the Oneweb fiscal disaster are those very same views which are very widely shared by many other commentators

For example, the very Conservative magazine, the Spectator :

Will taxpayers get their satellite bailout money back? | The Spectator

Yes, I well know that the value of any shares (i.e. like those in my very own pension fund) do go up and down – and they go up and down very regularly (it is yo-yo like behaviour at the present time…….).

So this article, published earlier today, very nicely sums up the current situation and the overall current status of Oneweb……

The House Article | Oneweb: Will the UK’s gamble on a satellite start-up pay off?

So yes, you might (just) possibly (one day) be proved right……

………Oneweb shares might one day (eventually) come good for the UK taxpayer.

However, based on previous similar experence of UK goverment run technology projects….. I very much doubt it….

Thus I might offer you odds of 4:1 against

  • New UK Developed Space Launchers

Worldwide, over the past fifty years, it has been less than fifty percent of any all-new space launchers that will eventually go on to become a sucessful model.

However, the UK has poorer than average track record in this field, our attempts being much less sucessful than most other countries (Note 1)

So yes, once again you might just (one day) be right – so I might just admit that just one of the three UK launchers you mention might come right ..one day……

  • Obx
  • Skyrora
  • Astraulis

However I will not be taking any bets with you as to which one of the these three still brand-new and completely unproven rocket models it is going to be that actually work …

—————————————–

This is an old shortlist of UK government run major projects foul-ups

Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist

Please note how many of these UK government run major projects – which all went onto become fiscal disasters – were / are all IT related.

  • I have to ask this question = “Were you involved in any?”

—————————————–

  • Interestingly, you completely ignored my orginal key point:
  • My orginal key point was that – back in 2020 – so very soon after Demonic Cummins had just purchased Oneweb for £500M
  • all three of the UK armed forces (especially the RN and RMC) should have got straight into trialing Oneweb
  • and all three should have been trialling Oneweb in 2020 like rats shinning up a wide and completely free trouserleg….

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS

  • and please note that I do lower myself to replying to your long comments..
  • instead of just being bone idle – and writing TLDNR

Note 1.

And you forgot to mention that Black Arrow was cancelled by the UK’s government of the day… ironically on the very same day as when it first made its first, and thus only, sucessful launch into orbit

Sean

Select committees don’t consist of experts, they consist of politicians looking to score points. I have you’re no so naive as to believe everything a politician says, or are you just cherry picking to believe the politicians that support your personal views?…

Fact is as you’re having to grudgingly admit, any loss or profit will only be determined if/when the government sells its share in OneWeb. Which dispute your previous claims, it has not.

OneWeb’s is not a “UK goverment run technology projects”. The NPL assisted OneWeb in developing Astra but OneWeb is a company with shares as previously discussed 🤦🏻‍♂️

I’m not surprised to see you knocking British private enterprise after knocking the Government (and RUSI), after all you consider everyone but yourself to be incompetent. I named the 3 companies with planned launches in the next 18 months. Assuming I believe your success rate that means at least one should be successful.

Dominic Cummins did not “buy OneWeb”, I doubt he has the cash. HMG bought OneWeb on the recommendation of Cummins and that of Chris Lee, Chief Scientist at the U.K. Space Agency. Cummins was interested in OneWeb’s for its native communications ability. It was Lee who had the inspired foresight that it could provide PNT services which previously were the preserve of geostationary satellites.

Your suggestion all 3 services should have started trialling OneWeb in 2020 is ridiculous as anybody who has been following this thread knows. Astra (the PNT service) did not exist in 2020.
It was after the purchase that HMG got OneWeb to develop it (with NPL’s help) and it only became available in 2024.

In future try and limit your comments to facts, relevant facts would be even better. We might start seeing posts of a paragraph rather than your usual dissertation length diatribes.

(BTW I didn’t mention Black Arrows cancellation because I forgot as you claimed. I didn’t mention it because I only include relevant facts and try not to ramble off topic. It’s something you might consider trying.)

Last edited 25 days ago by Sean
Sean

Irational Pete

Select committees don’t consist of experts, they consist of politicians looking to score points. I have you’re no so naive as to believe everything a politician says, or are you just cherry picking to believe the politicians that support your personal views?…

Fact is as you’re having to grudgingly admit, any loss or profit will only be determined if/when the government sells its share in OneWeb. Which dispute your previous claims, it has not.

OneWeb’s is not a “UK goverment run technology projects”. The NPL assisted OneWeb in developing Astra but OneWeb is a company with shares as previously discussed 🤦🏻‍♂️

I’m not surprised to see you knocking British private enterprise after knocking the Government (and RUSI), after all you consider everyone but yourself to be incompetent. I named the 3 companies with planned launches in the next 18 months. Assuming I believe your success rate that means at least one should be successful.

Dominic Cummins did not “buy OneWeb”, I doubt he has the cash. HMG bought OneWeb on the recommendation of Cummins and that of Chris Lee, Chief Scientist at the U.K. Space Agency. Cummins was interested in OneWeb’s for its native communications ability. It was Lee who had the inspired foresight that it could provide PNT services which previously were the preserve of geostationary satellites.

Your suggestion all 3 services should have started trialling OneWeb in 2020 is ridiculous as anybody who has been following this thread knows. Astra (the PNT service) did not exist in 2020.
It was after the purchase that HMG got OneWeb to develop it (with NPL’s help) and it only became available in 2024.

In future try and limit your comments to facts, relevant facts would be even better. We might start seeing posts of a paragraph rather than your usual dissertation length diatribes.

(BTW I didn’t mention Black Arrows cancellation because I forgot as you claimed. I didn’t mention it because I only include relevant facts and try not to ramble off topic. It’s something you might consider trying.)

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Sean

I am not knocking UK private enterprise!

Oneweb was developed abroad, then it was purchased by the Uk government; then just a few years later, it was sold onto the French.

It is now only 11% owned by the UK government, which has just one seat on the board. That is a situation, which despite the golden share, is nothing like the “controlling interest” which you seem to think it is…

It is you (not me) which is confusing “fact” with “opinion”.

  • It is fact that, to date, the valuation of the UK government’s shareholding in oneweb has, over the past five years, basically halved
  • Futhermore, next fact , one quick look at their accounts shows that Oneweb is deep in debt (not,it has to be said, unusual for a tech companay)….. however its total number of customers and thus its revenues are barely rising year on year (unlike Starlinks)
  • It is your opinion that, Oneday, that “probable” loss to us taxpayers might be recovered.
  • We shall wait and see….
  • As of today, you are total unanimous that your own opinions are 100% right
  • = and thus you are in a minority of precisely one

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Sean

Yes you are knocking U.K. private enterprise, I quote:

“just one of the three UK launchers you mention might come right ..one day”

Please provide the quote where I said HMG had a “controlling share”… It’ll be a long wait as I never said that, they have a golden share.

I won’t bother trying to educate you on start-up costs for companies that need to develop an expensive infrastructure before it can generate a single piece of revenue. I’ll leave it by simply pointing out that that much to Musk’s chagrin, OneWeb secured the best radio frequencies for LEO orbit communications satellites. Which ensures it will always be able to provide faster and greater bandwidth than Starlink can ever achieve.

I’ve not said anywhere that OneWeb will return an either a profit or a loss. I’ve simply stated that you can’t say that until HMG sells its shares – which it hasn’t.
It was you that told the porky that the HMG had sold its share and made a loss. Don’t tell lies and you won’t be exposed as having done so 🤷🏻‍♂️

But you completely failed to notice the strategic reason for buying OneWeb – rescuing a company that could provide an alternative PNT system to GPS/ Galileo in the cheap. Which it has with Astra.
Had that £500 million not been spent we’d be looking at spending the equivalent of £9billion.

As a supposed tax-payer would you have preferred spending £9billion or £500million?…

Naturally I only post those opinions I believe to be right, it’d be stupid to post opinions I thought were incorrect… Is that what you do? It would explain why a lot of what you post is nonsense.
(As for a minority of one, obviously not as Chris Lee is of the same opinion.)

Last edited 23 days ago by Sean
Nig e

The MOD/RN DISEASE buy a class of warship then but a number of them out of action to act as floating spares because it does not look good on the books to keep spares! (See Tresuary!).See Also spare personnel!

Sean

You really need to stop skipping your English lessons, Ivan.

Nig e

Sorry! Spelling was always B-

Opinion3

This lack of integration / data sharing is really poor. The helicopters have similar issues.

Nig e

You can MODERNISE the T23 as much as you like, there grossly out of date and won’t last much longer than HMS VICTORY if hostilities brakes out!

Hugo

Enough with the nonsense. The systems are perfectly up to date, the hulls are the only issue

Sean

• It’s “they’re” not “there”
• It’s “breaks out” not “brakes out”

If you’re going to troll, at least learn English first.

Arkwright

It’s utterly disgraceful that it’s taken this bloody long! Link 16 and JREAP C have been standard theatre-entry Tactical Data Links for years. In my 24 years within the TDL community, you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who wouldn’t tell you how embarrassingly behind the curve the UK has been; the Royal Navy in particular.
The blame lies squarely with the endless parade of utterly incompetent Requirements Managers at SACC DT, who’ve consistently failed to grasp even the most basic principles. And as for the higher ranks, anyone above Commander seems to have a complete and unforgivable ignorance of Link 16 or any other TDL, for that matter. It’s a shambles. A national embarrassment.

Jonathan Knocker

Hope she gets a paint job before leaving on UKCSG!

Andy

Looks like it’s on its way to the scrapyard.