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Mike

Here’s hoping the fleet can cope until new ships come online.

The uk is a wealthy nation, where has all the money been blown that could otherwise have been used to prevent the dither and delay in earlier ordering.

Sadly, likely on tax payer bribes and massive inefficiencies ( just look at those quotes to leaseholders of Greenwich coublncil houses – £21k for shared cost of roof replacement)

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Here’s hoping the fleet can cope until new ships come online.

Mike

Agreed!

However I would really like to know the true TOTAL cost of this particular four year long refit (information which was, quite noticeably, not stated in the NL article…)

the total cost must be getting very near to the point where it would have been as cheap overall to simply scrap the T23 ship (or sell it to an ally) and buy a complete all-new T26 or T31 ship

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Hugo

Except we’re still waiting for any new frigates, we can’t afford to give away any T23 till they’re completely done

Duker

Thats not backed by evidence
Iron Duke cost £100 mill or so
https://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=50&start=950

Even a 50% increase is …?

Thomas

Dont forget the Bulwark. Was in there years, what a waste of money

Jim

She has had much work done at some £ 70 million cost, She is probably going to be sold and I suspect much of that cost will be recouped but you never know what this latest bunch of clowns will do next.

Hugo

One article talked about selling both LPDs for only 20mil

Supportive Bloke

Of course it would have been better value to scrap BUT we have a massive ship building backlog….

Paul T

The whole LIFEX programme was quoted as being around £950 million for 13 Ships,but Monmouth never went through the process,so an average of £80 million each for 12.

Jim

“The UK is a wealthy Nation”

Trouble is that the nation is mostly owned and controlled by the Elite and these small percentage of Super wealthy like to keep it that way.
The Elite have an uncanny knack of keeping hold of their vast wealth even through times of war because they know that those below them will be willing to die for “Their” Country.

William the Conqueror sowed all the seeds.

Lord Denning

We really need a batch II of Type 31s; at least another 3 just to have even a limited global presence.

Quentin D63

Yes, a few of us have also been saying this too over on ukdj site. A good common sense and affordable and buildable uptake. Maybe a bit more upgunned and capable like the Polish A140s?

Hugo

With the current funding or lack thereof, how are we going to get a better armed T31 when the current batxh are waiting for mk41

Jim

With tongue firmly in Cheek, When Donald tells us to !

Will

If it were up to me, the second batch of T31s would number another five. Supposedly the plan was to get to 24 units in the escort fleet by building five ships to a new design (the T32), but surely this would result in far greater cost than simply cranking out more 31s.

I say, get the numbers “up” first (24 is obviously not really “up” but it’s better than where we are now) before you start worrying about a new boutique class of warship that will serve mainly to drive up the price tag of additional vessels.

Jim

T32 is an absolute unknown and as yet, unfunded project that many believe was just a Boris blunder. The only actual reference to this project describes it as “A platform for autonomous vehicles”. If anything actually comes of this I’ll eat my own Navel Fluff.

If on the slim chance I’m wrong though, I’d like to offer my choice of names for the 5 ships mentioned.
Five, Four, Three, Two, One… Thunderbirds are go.

F.A.B.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Will and Jim

The RN simply cannot justify, and it certainly cannot afford, having a third type of new “frigate” designed, built and then supported in service

Therefore the idea behind the T32 is madness = T31 should be dropped

The RN simply needs to keep building more T26 and more T31’s

If necessary, extra numbers of both types could be procured as Batch 2’s (i.e with a much better weapons fit onto both types)

Peter (Irate taxpayer)

Jim

Sorry Peter but that makes no sense. “Therefore the idea behind the T32 is madness =T31 should be dropped” Are you saying T31 and T32 should not happen ? I’m confused.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

CORRECTION

Jim

For the second time in three days, my post was ruined by the curse of fat finger syndrome

It should have read

Therefore the idea behind the T32 is madness = so the T32 should be dropped

So,given where the RN is today, I believe that we only need the T26 and T31 classes

…. and many more of them…..

..preferably Batch 2 designs:with an improved weapons and sensors fit

Pete (Irate Taxpayer)

PS I have just booked an eye test appointment with Specsavers.

…at least I hope its booked with Specsavers – and not Poundsavers!

Jonno

That makes sense. I think ‘good enough’ is where one should be going. I especially would like to see a more ASW capable T31 be developed with a more acoustic hull and machinery outfit. Is this possible with say a 25% increased cost? That’s where I think we should be headed.
(In WW2 we had many destroyers which were only developments of a 20 year old design, the A-H flotillas. In fact these, with great heroism, carried the burden of the fleet through to about 1943.)

Duker

Just add acoustic hull treatment like this for T26
anechoic sheets. Easier than subs as they have smaller tiles due to rounded surfaces. Frigates are flatter

type26acoustic1
Supportive Bloke

OMG

Once ‘noise’ is in the hull structure it will radiate somewhere.

That is why noise hygiene is critical……

The acoustic tiles aren’t there to stop radiant noise!!!

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Jonno

I fully agree with the “good enough” comment…

At the present time, given that the T23 fleet is suffering from severe weevil and woodworm infestions etc in their long-worn-out hulls….

….the most important thing with the already ordered T31 class (i.e. now on the slipways), is to get more of those early T31 hulls into the water quickly

However, given that the RN T31 class is intended for global patrol duties, in that role we already know it will face some quite-major threats: …

..and to deal with those threats they will really need some better kit

So:

AAD / ASM

  • given that both Houthi’s and Hezbulla were both firing anti-ship missiles at their enemy’s big ships over ten years ago, the RN really needs to wake up to the fact that even smaller and/or non-nation state actors now have powerful ASM’s. Furthermore, it has been occasionally reported that Iran has some mobile ASM patrolling its coastline
  • Therefore the T31 needs better AAD (i.e. against ASM)

ASW

  • The Iranian and North Koreans both have excellent, and very quiet (however admittedly short range and shallow diving) mini-submarines
  • Remember that a South Korea warship was torpedoed and sunk by Norh Korean submarine. However, despite the sinking happening right on their front doorstep, our always-alert SK allies never caught that very naughty sub
  • Therefore the T31 needs better ASW

MCM

  • Both Iran and North Korea are very-well-versed in mine-warfare: with both countries having very large stocks of many different types (horney and other). We often forget that any type of mine is are a very sever threat to any type of warship operating in coastal (litteroll) waters: especially when around a natural maritime choke point.
  • Therefore the T31 needs better MCM
  • Quite possibly, something like the remote controlled Seafox? – so a UUV easily launched from, and directly controlled from, the main ship
  • When combined with a good ship’s hull-mounted shallow depth sonor:
  • that combination might well “do the business”

Helicoptors

  • In focusing mostly on its the large Merlins for ASW, AEW and commando lift, over recent decades the RN sems to have lost sight of the sheer untility of having many small and fast helicoptors: ie those sizes of cabs which were, back in the 1980’s, the mainstay aviation assest carried aboard all of the RN frigate force.
  • Therefore more Wilcats for T31 batch 2: ideally with a quick-fit “mix and match weapons and sensor kits (ie multi-role)
  • Fit widcat for ASW (especally useful against conventionally powered and very quiet subs)
  • Intergrate the ACC Apache to operate on board; so long-range all -weather land attack becomes viable when operating from the back of the frigate

UAV’s

  • whilist on the subject of Army Avaition (an oxymoron if ever there was one!), after a very long wait, (and it has to be said, much poncing about by the Army Dress Committe (shall we paint our Army drones grey, green or white)……. on the back of some serious warfighting experience learnt in Ukraine, the British Army is, (finally!) introducing some smaller, and it has to be admitted…..very useful, recce drones into service. They would be especialy useful for the RN’s litterol operations in the grey zone
  • The RN should buy the same UAV’s: and intergrate them onto the T31 class.

Therefore I would really like to see a batch 2 version of the T31 design authorised and commenced…..

..and a T31 Batch 2 should have better AAD, ASW, MCM and Cabs

= to combat the threats which we know now already exist around the world.

Even if those sensor and weapons fits for T31 batch 2 are not premier league (ie cutting edge) “Gucci naval kit”……

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Paul Bestwick

Just go back and read what you have written, I see pound signs all over your comment each modification adding to the cost of the platform. At present you get approx two T-31 for the price of a T-26. With your shopping list above you will finish up being able to get 4 T-31 for the price of 3 T-26. If ASW capability is required, buy more T-26, if the Norwegians buy 5 or 6 the unit cost will be good as they are supposed to want almost the same fit as the RN so they can take advantage of RN upgrades for the platform. More ASW helicopters ? Buy more Merlins. Rely on the PODs initiative to provide other niche capabilities

Hugo

If we’re getting any more frigates they will be budget designs seeing as currently we can’t afford any more

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Hugo

The RN has plenty of money for equipment…..

Here are the offical figures

MOD UK Defence in Numbers 2023

Pages 11 and 15

In 2023, £5.5 Billion was spent on shipbuilding and repair activities (ships and submarines)

(note; weapons and sensors are not included in that figure)

The RN uses most of thise large sums of money to refit knackered old ships and submarines (especially submarines)

———–

So can I please ask that you please do not confuse

  • “we have no money”
  • (the excuse note = the dog ate my homework)

with the phrase

  • “we are grossly inefficency in our UK dockyards”

Hard truth is that the RN spends many billions each year on its equipment……and it ends up wasting much of that money

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Pub Quiz Answer

  • In 2023, this also shows that the MOD land holding here in the UK alone currently stands at over one hectare of land for every single serviceman and civil servant who is currently employed by MOD and all three of the UK armed services in 2023 (i.e.the combined total)… so no wonder so many servicemen and servicewomen fell lonely with all that space around them………
  • To be fair, perforamance in the land and buildings department of MOD have substantially improved since the very late 1980’s….. …..when I pointed out to the minister that the MOD had more individual buildings than it had the “then combined” total of every single serviceman and civil servant who was employed by MOD and the UK armed services back in 1990 (note. MOD back then had about twice the number of personel it has today)
Hugo

Well how is that going to suddenly change? Unless it does we can take it as the baseline and in turn conclude that they can’t afford any more frigates when other naval programs need urgent funding

ATH

Before you go ordering ships you need to find the people to crew them. There is as yet no indication that the RN has a succeeding plan to increase manpower.

Jonno

Dont you think If there is a major conflagration, they will be manned by reservists and volunteers?

Supportive Bloke

Undoubtedly increasing reserves is essential to allow recent leavers to maintain some levels of skills and certification.

The most complex systems would probably need full time heads.

I agree, if you had a short sharp war, like Corporate of GW1/2 then using experienced people sailing desks is an option too.

All this hand wringing because some certifications have lapsed, a little, makes little sense to me. The main thing is to have good people who can learn.

Challenger

HMS Lancaster expected to decommission this year, gapping any frigate presence in the Middle East and taking us down to just 7 T23’s.

Let’s hope the ones left can soldier on without major defects for a few more years.

In theory by 2030 we should have all 5 T31 and a couple of T26 in service and start see numbers increase again.

Mark P

Unlikely because of the lack of hulls left but Iron Duke (could) go as part of the CSG and then swap places with Lancaster on operation Kipon on the way home, then Lancaster sails home with the CSG to return for decommissioning?
Not really their roll but the river B1’s might have to help out more with shadowing Russian assets through the English channel, they might have to anyway with the dier state of the fleet?

Jon

I think it more likely that Iron Duke will go after a short gap, perhaps at the start of next year.

Thomas

Ever since the goverment brought in the IR35 tax law. Dockyards like Devonport cant get the trades to do the job.

No one wants to work away from home working through an umbrella company, you can actually earn more stacking shelfs on a night shift.

Nat

Great News to hear HMS Sutherland is going back to Sea for system work up trials etc. But why, if she has had all of the baseline modifications carried out, to accept the Naval Strike Missile Upgrade, hasn’t it just been accelerated to full fitment, given the 4 years, she has been in Refit?

Is it me, or does this seem a disjointed and inefficient to say the least?

Paul T

She would have had all the preliminary works for NSM carried out that aren’t obvious to the casual observer,like Wiring and Plumbing etc.The External obvious stuff will be carried out after her Trials have been completed.

Esteban

Just makes me sad…