In this article, we refute some of the arguments frequently presented by those campaigning for the UK to abandon its nuclear deterrent.
Britain is in the middle of a major programme to renew its Trident missile-based nuclear weapons capability which consists of three main efforts. 1. Construction of the Dreadnought-class submarines to replace the ageing Vanguard class boats. 2. Development of the new A21/Mk7 Astraea warhead to replace the Holbrook warhead (in service since 1994). 3. Infrastructure projects at the MENSA warhead assembly facility at AWE Burghfield, the Pegasus facility for enriched uranium manufacturing at AWE Aldermaston and extensive works at Faslane and Devonport naval bases. A project of this scale does not come cheap and inevitably attracts plenty of critics who can suggest endless alternative ways to use the resources.
Even in an increasingly uncertain world, only 46% of the British public fully backs Trident replacement, while a significant number have no opinion or would favour a cheaper, downgraded nuclear capability. A vocal minority continues to actively campaign for unilateral disarmament, using the arguments answered below. (In the context of this article, ‘Trident’ is used as shorthand for the whole British nuclear weapon programme.)
“Trident is a waste of money because it has never been used”
Contrary to this claim, Trident is in use every day as a deterrent. The very existence of a credible nuclear deterrent influences potential adversaries and contributes to global stability. While the post-Cold War period saw reduced tensions, recent years have demonstrated how quickly the geopolitical landscape can change. More nations now possess or seek nuclear weapons than at the end of the Cold War, including North Korea while Iran is actively pursuing nuclear capabilities.
Since the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Putin has threatened the use of nuclear weapons against other nations on at least six occasions. The deterrence effect, by its nature, is difficult to quantify as it results in things that don’t happen, but recent events demonstrate Putin cannot contemplate the use of nuclear weapons for fear of retaliation.
Historical evidence suggests that nuclear deterrence contributed to preventing major conflicts in Europe between 1945 and 2022. While critics argue that Britain should abandon Trident without consequence, the reality is that doing so would weaken the broader nuclear balance that has helped maintain global stability.
For many years in the post-Cold War era, critics told us that Trident was a relic and no longer relevant because state-on-state conflict was a thing of the past. In some cases, these voices also argued against acquiring complex conventional capabilities such as aircraft carriers, claiming future conflicts would be mostly asymmetric, involving sub-threshold activities, insurgencies, cyber-attacks and terrorism. Unfortunately, the last 5 years have proven this analysis to be entirely false. The influence of this thinking, ineffectual counter-insurgency operations and the ‘peace dividend’ mindset that dominated the early 21st century has been devastating for Western militaries. Meanwhile, Russia and China continued to invest heavily in both conventional and nuclear forces.
Ongoing Russian military activity directed against the UK includes an increased submarine presence, threats to undersea infrastructure, airspace incursions and nuclear posturing. This highlights the continued need for both conventional and nuclear deterrence and the wisdom in resisting calls for disarmament when the threat appeared less acute. As an island nation with a natural barrier that offers substantial protection from invasion, the UK could be especially vulnerable to nuclear coercion, should it dispense with its own deterrent.
“Trident cannot protect us from terrorism or hybrid threats”
Trident’s sole purpose is to deter nuclear threats from hostile states and nothing else. To suggest that resources should be redirected from nuclear deterrence to other security measures misunderstands the distinct nature of these threats. While terrorism is a real concern, statistically, it poses a tiny risk to the UK population compared to the threat of war with another state.
Maintaining national security involves countering an increasingly broad range of challenges, nuclear weapons are just one aspect of UK defence dedicated to deterring the most serious existential threat to the UK. It should be noted that Trident does not protect from growing conventional threats and should not be seen as a backstop or panacea that can be used to justify wider reductions in defence.
“Trident costs too much; the money should be spent elsewhere”
What is not in dispute is that Trident is an expensive system, but put in context, the average annual cost of Trident is around 0.13% of total government spending. During the peak years of expenditure on renewal, Trident will consume about 12% of the defence budget but should average around 6% of the MoD’s budget over its lifetime.
Critics often cite varying and unsubstantiated estimates for the entire 30-year through-life cost of the Dreadnought-class submarines and all the other supporting elements of the deterrent renewal. (NIS says £172 billion, CND says £205 billion). Quoting entire lifetime cost is a tactic designed to exaggerate the expense. Budgets are run on an annual, or in rare cases, 5 – 10-year basis. We do not, for example, talk about the size of the NHS or welfare budgets in 30-year blocks, which would dwarf Trident and amount to trillions of pounds.
Given its role in safeguarding the nation, Trident represents a responsible and proportionate investment. The costs and risks of nuclear war are exponentially greater and it is an insurance policy worth paying. Disarmament would not generate immediate savings, decommissioning the UK’s nuclear infrastructure has been estimated to cost at least £10 billion, and entail the loss of thousands of highly skilled jobs, particularly in the north of England and Scotland.

“Trident puts the profits of big companies ahead of broader national interests”
This argument ignores the reality of modern defence procurement. Large corporations are essential to delivering complex military capabilities and there is no credible alternative, just as big pharmaceutical companies are essential to healthcare provision.
Beyond its strategic value, the UK’s nuclear deterrent supports thousands of advanced manufacturing jobs and hundreds of British businesses. Construction of the Dreadnought class is one of the most complex engineering endeavours underway in the country but for reasons of security, this has to be mostly hidden from the public. The expertise involved in nuclear submarine construction is irreplaceable and will mostly be transferable to the critically important SSN-AUKUS programme.
“Unilateral disarmament would set a positive example”
While noble in sentiment, unilateral disarmament is strategically flawed. History has shown that security guarantees are unreliable; Ukraine surrendered its nuclear weapons in exchange for flimsy international assurances and was subsequently invaded by Russia. It is highly unlikely that any other nuclear state would follow the UK’s lead in disarming, such an action would simply be perceived as weakness to be exploited.
Unilateral disarmament would leave the UK vulnerable to coercion and diminish its global influence. A strong nuclear deterrent ensures that Britain maintains a voice in international arms control efforts rather than being ignored as a non-nuclear state.
“Trident is immoral”
The potential scale and horror of nuclear war has many well-meaning people performing intellectual contortions in an attempt to put nuclear weapons in a different ‘moral’ category to conventional weapons. Dealing with all forms of war is always an exercise in ‘least appalling’ choices. An example is the unpalatable truth that more lives were saved by the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki than the number of people killed in those cities. Many anti-Trident campaigners cite the suffering of the Japanese survivors as their inspiration. They seem to overlook the greater slaughter of other civilians and allied soldiers by the Japanese army that would have continued unchecked without the atomic bomb.
Nuclear weapons are undoubtedly the ultimate expression of the dark heart of mankind and the arguments against their possession have great emotional resonance. Unfortunately, we cannot un-invent the bomb, instead, we must rationally face up to dealing with the consequences. The idea that humanity is on a path towards entirely peaceful coexistence and a world without weapons is sadly more fanciful now than ever. Given that nuclear bombs brought an early end to WWII, have prevented a worldwide conflict since and have saved millions of lives, there is even a case to be made that they have more moral legitimacy than any other type of weapon.
Attempts to give ‘moral value’ to inanimate objects are fraught with problems anyway, it is clearly the motivations and actions of the people who use them that count. The machine gun is responsible for by far the most violent human deaths. Disarmament campaigners might be wasting marginally less time by fighting to ‘outlaw the automatic weapon’ which continues to kill hundreds around the world daily.
“Trident is illegal”
Using Trident to target civilians would be illegal under international law. However, its possession and continued renewal are entirely lawful. While British Prime Ministers sensibly have refused to publicly rule out preemptive use of nuclear weapons, it is generally accepted that the UK would only retaliate if an aggressor had already grossly transgressed international law by attacking first. The key point is to make a potential aggressor believe it is a possibility, thus preventing the use of nuclear weapons in the first place.
Over time, the UK has reduced to an absolute minimum strategic deterrent, currently possessing just 225 usable warheads and is fully compliant with the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The Vanguard class submarines have 16 missile tubes but now only carry a maximum of 12 missiles fitted with about 48 warheads between them. The new Dreadnought class boats are being built with just 12 tubes. Unlike the four other NPT states (US, France, Russia and China) the UK now has no alternative method of delivering nuclear weapons besides the submarine-based deterrent. The NPT aspires to eliminate nuclear weapons, and this laudable, if virtually impossible, aim remains.
“Scrapping Trident would allow greater investment in conventional forces”
This is perhaps the most compelling argument against Trident for those genuinely concerned about the defence of the nation and not proposing nuclear disarmament for virtue-signalling or political motives. While strengthening forces is essential, nuclear weapons have a unique power that cannot be matched by even the best conventional forces. In a conflict against a nuclear-armed adversary, the UK would be at a severe disadvantage without its own deterrent. Even if Trident were scrapped, Politicians who have consistently underfunded defence could not be relied upon to redirect the eventual savings into conventional weapon investment.
The steep decline in the relative size of the defence budget since CASD began with Polaris in 1968 means the cost of Trident renewal disproportionally impacts conventional capability. It is not flawed nuclear policy but rather the political choice to underfund defence as a whole that has put UK forces in such a poor state. Against this backdrop, inevitably, the funds being spent on the nuclear enterprise now seem especially extravagant. Unfortunately, strategic weapons platforms and their supporting infrastructure cannot be delivered with half measures. There are no corners that can be cut; either you have a credible deterrent or you do not. Aircraft or cruise missile-based delivery systems are often suggested as cheaper alternatives. While it might be prudent to consider tactical weapons to complement Trident, they are vulnerable to countermeasures and would not comprise a credible strategic deterrent on their own.
“Britain’s nuclear deterrent is not independent”
This is widely repeated misinformation. The deterrent is fully independent in the short-medium term, and there is no hidden ‘back door’ option for the US to disable the Trident missiles which carry UK-made warheads. In the very unlikely event that US-UK foreign policy aims were so divergent, the Prime Minister still can launch without permission or any reliance on the US.
The US could withdraw technical assistance and maintenance support for the missiles, which would eventually render the UK deterrent inoperable after several months. Claims that switching off the Global Positioning System (GPS) would disable the system are entirely false. The missiles do not use GPS and navigate using celestial and inertial guidance systems that require no other external inputs.
There is very significant value in an independent deterrent as it demonstrates to the US that Britain is willing to pay for its own defence and not rely entirely on their benevolence. It also provides reassurance to other European NATO nations because the UK deterrent is a declared NATO asset. If the UK was subject to nuclear blackmail or attack, it would give the US the option not to go nuclear, thus possibly avoiding global nuclear conflagration. It backs up Britain’s position as one of the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council with the potential for positive global influence that comes with that position.
The claim that other major European nations such as Germany, Italy and Spain manage fine without nuclear weapons overlooks the fact that they shelter under the NATO nuclear umbrella. Their defence is largely underwritten by the US and to some extent, the UK and France. Recent events suggest that reliance on the US for European security is becoming increasingly untenable.
“Those in favour of Trident are war hawks”
While not always explicitly stated, many who call themselves ‘peace campaigners’ believe they have the moral high ground and that those in favour of Trident are less concerned about the possibility of nuclear war or are ignorant of its horror. Quite the opposite, many generations of RN submariners have conducted deterrent patrols at great personal sacrifice to themselves and their families, dedicating their lives to keeping the peace. Every sailor departing on patrol is fully aware of the consequences of a nuclear exchange and fervently hopes they will never have to press the button. By doing their duty, they actively help reduce that possibility, making nuclear conflict less likely. While the protestors have been shouting about peace, the Royal Navy has actually been keeping the peace with dignity and professionalism.
Nuclear weapons have been a major contributor to long-term peace and upholding democracy, resulting in unparalleled prosperity in Europe and much of the world. Ironically it is the nuclear umbrella that has allowed pampered generations to grow up, largely shielded from the horrible reality of conventional war and able to indulge their unilateralist views. Without the nuclear balance, we would either be living under totalitarian domination or in a continuous cycle of war and conflict, more familiar to older generations who instinctively understood our need for strong defence.
I think reducing the format of the number of missiles in an SSBN is a mistake.
Decreasing the number of warheads is stupid and less dissuasive, but it is not the biggest problem.
The problem is that the United Kingdom only has one strategic component.
So that means that there is no pre-strategic firing before Trident is sent.
It’s lacking and it’s certainly less of a deterrent. No ?
It is written that the United Kingdom was completely independent in the short and medium term.
but this is not the case in the long term?
Why didn’t you participate in the M51 missile program?
without that, the article is very good!
I mean, 12 tridents is still devestating no matter what, and they could load more warheads.
We don’t participate in M51 because we generally don’t get on with France in defence more than likely
Actually, correction, why England doesn’t have its own missile system like before!
Because we haven’t had a nuclear armed air launched missile since Blue Steel….?
We did have free fall nuclear bombs up until the late 90’s. We also had nuclear depth charges for ASW work.
I’d respectfully suggest that the nuclear depth charges are rather more important than M51 for a deterrence PoV?
Royal Navy has always used USN ballistic missiles. First Polaris and then Trident
Even when the RAF had operational nuclear armed IRBM they were US supplied Douglas Thor systems.
UK tested its own Blue Streak IRBM ( 1500nm range) designed and built by de Havilland but the cost of bunkers, rockets and warheads ( US W-49 warhead) was too expensive and the RN got the mission with USN missile instead.
The real breakthrough was solid fuelled rockets such as Polaris and Minuteman. Liquid fuelled IRBM had to be fuelled up just before launch
For one, England has never had any of it’s own missile systems. The UK has. Is that what you meant? The nuke boats are based in Scotland.
Loading more warheads won’t necessarily help as much as you think. The other reentry vehicles have decoys in them which help the penetration of denied environments. If you haven’t read the most recent Thin Pinstriped Line article, I recommend it.
Up until Tango Man arrived at the helm, we in the UK would have the additional US assets providing air launch and dropped N weapons. Not sure which direction it’ll go now. If the US pulls out of Europe and Nato then who knows how we will react and not only the UK but every other European and Nato country.
Having a fifth Dreadnought would be a start, CASD normally has one boat out, one boat under going Maintenance/refit leaving two others in various states of availability and one of them would be sent out at relatively short notice. Having a fifth would certainly add a potent threat.
Tempest might just turn out to be another option given it’s rumoured long range and stealthy design, maybe a project with France could lead to an air launched/dropped option. Who knows ?
You seem to be having some communication issues…..
UFWD only gives 1 week training
If UK pulls out (scrapped nuclear weapons) & we are left with an unstable US, then France is it in NATO. The problem is the list of countries capable of developing their own nuclear weapons (at least to Israel level) is bigger than many would realise (& quite a few not part of NATO). They have (so far) been convinced that they can rely on these three, but any hint that they can’t could see the number of nuclear powers double.
How is the US unstable? The last administration was funding a proxy war against the planet’s primary nuclear power. And some of them thought a nuclear war could not only be fought be won. If that isn’t the definition of UNSTABLE I am not sure what is!
Is Trump Wumpy take your war away? Is he? Oh dear! Naughty Trump Wumpy.
For God’s sake get a grip.
UK is increasing its warhead numbers from 225 to 260, to be completed this year.
I don’t understand the reason for spending so much on Dreadnought but reducing the number of launch tubes compared with the Trafalgars.
I am not convinced that reliance on a single system is a sufficient deterrent. A second system, perhaps based on the new FrancoBritish long range cruise missile could be an affordable way of ensuring that both countries, and more widely Europe, wield sufficient deterrent force without relying on the increasingly doubtful support of the USA.
Air launched ballistic missiles (maybe with nukes) are back in the spot light after Israel’s successful use against Iran
Not that they said so but first stages were found in Iraq
https://www.twz.com/air/mystery-weapon-appears-in-iraqi-field-after-israeli-strike
If UK wants to extend its nuclear umbrella beyond the RN this would be ideal for RAF ?
Vanguards not Trafalgars.
If you have nuclear cruise missiles, how is an enemy to respond when they see you fire cruise missiles at them? Do they wait until they hit to see if they are conventional or nuclear armed or do they assume the worst…?
They try to defend against them either way. Stupid comment.
My only concern is, whether it works. The last two test firings failed, which undermines its deterrence effect somewhat
That’s the tabloid take. Don’t believe everything you read in the press. Launch tests are very complex. A failure in any part of the process is marked as a test failure, including failures of measurement devices and ancillary equipment. These are reported, unlike in Russia/China.
Fair points. But did the missiles reach the outer atmosphere…there’s technical failure and complete failure. I want to see another full test sooner rather than later
@Duker, I wasn’t a Strategic Weapons Tech but I was a WE SAM maintainer on ‘skimmers’. When we were given a ‘slot’ for a ‘shoot’ we would receive a signal telling us what missile(s) we should use. These were always missiles that were going out of date and were due to be sent back for maintenance. I don’t know but suspect that it might be similar for the D5 firings; a missile due for shipping back for (relatively expensive) maintenance being handed over for a one way trip to oblivion.
Thanks for that . Very useful information. As the missiles are shared stock and the US tests its Tridents much more regularly that probably counts as testing too.
When we are talking about nuclear deterrence, what matters is whether the other side (Putin) believes it works. After the recent failures the Russians probably don’t, and to me that is a very real problem. The Royal Navy is only one mechanical failure away from the failure of CASD.
As the RN faces painful and difficult decisions in the years ahead, the long term future of CASD is at best uncertain.
I doubt very much If Putin would gamble on the UK’s two test failures to be honest.
The reason being that Putin still believes the US Strategic deterrent works.
I still think the future of the UK’s CASG comes down to how much it costs and if the Royal Navy can afford it.
As a bear minimum, the renewal will take place over an extended period of time to keep the annual cost within what the budget can afford.
Will we see a capability gap, maybe.
As one ‘insider’ below said the test firings are done with life expired missiles to avoid expensive major overhaul costs.
The fact the the missiles fired were past there use by date does not explain the either of the test failures. The USN has conducted many similar test firings with life expired missiles, the vast majority of which have been successful. In both cases the test rounds had been serviced prior to the test launch by the same team in the US that that has prepared numerous missiles for launch for the USN.
Everything points to failures in the British side of the equation and not the missiles themselves.
The idea that all is fine, is unfortunately, mostly an example of wishful thinking.
This is regrettable, not something I see as a positive.
I do so see it has making the case for continuing to spend a large portion of the RN budget on CASD that much harder than it otherwise would be had those test firings been successful.
When those opposing it can argue large amounts are being spend on a deterrent is not actually effective because nobody believes it actually works CASD is in a difficult place to fight for its slice of the budget.
Ultimately that is the battle that is being raged right now. One I am not sure it will win.
CASD is a distinct budget line and historically was funded separately from the defence budget as such but was added to show a greater GDP number for defence to “save some money” and artificially increase the budget. Someone suggested that even my pension has now been added to that budget though I do not know if that is true or not
You should take the tests of both the USN and the RN as absolutely testing the same system there are no distinct differences outside of the warhead and related systems. The RN has no choice in relation to the deterrent, they cannot choose to spend or otherwise on it”
“Everything points to failures in the British side of the equation and not the missiles themselves.”
Could you elaborate on that as I understand the below water launch was successful and it was some seconds into the sky the missile itself malfunctioned
The Trident D5 is not a guided missile from under water !
Maybe a live fire would help ?
Although the article is fair and worthy, as far as it goes, a simplified argument would be, Ukraine had nuclear weapons, it gave these up based upon external guarantees, it has been invaded since, twice. If Ukrainians nuclear deterrent cost say $5bn per year and say $150bn over 30 years therefore there would be no war and no estimated cost of $486bn (up to 2024 UN Estimates). Nuclear deterrence is therefore very cheap! As opposed to war costing appx. $200bn per year as against $5bn per year for MAD.
Ukraine only nominally had nuclear weapons, just like Belarus and Kazakhstan.
The control systems in the warheads were still controlled from Moscow- in the 1970s the USA shared some of its nuclear weapons control secrets with USSR so rogue generals couldnt use them. Without the correct codes they were unusable ,
Think of the elaborate codes to unlock software known as product keys, now make that 10x more difficult
The reason for ‘selling the warheads’ and scrapping the delivery systems was to take the highly enriched uranium and or plutonium to a much safer place then corrupt Ukraine. Remember Ukraine sold its Soviet era missile rocket engine technology to North Korea- who made a ‘great leap forward’ in their ICBM program for one reason only
South Africa of course gave up its nuclear program and hasnt been invaded.
Who would want to invade South Africa, I did my resettlement in Cape Town over six weeks, the most notable thing about the place was the way the rich black South Africans treated the poor ones! I expected to see attitude from/between white/black South Africans and was very surprised by it. Being a group of service people we gravitated towards late night bar sessions and got on really well with the staff who were very conscious of the change in their country and somewhat disgusted by that situation
The Ukraine didn’t have nuclear weapons. When the USSR dissolved all the nuclear weapons became the responsibility of the Russian Federation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_missile_forces_museum_in_Ukraine
“130 UR-100N/RS-18 intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totalling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory.”
Of course even after 12 years or so warheads need remanufacture as the Plutonium and tritium has decayed . Its last missile warhead was deactivated in 2001 so that warhead if it remained would be unusable anyway in 2022
Foxtrot Oscar
Yep. Let’s ask questions mid way through and loose capability and tens of billions too.
In 2024/25 total public expenditure is expected to be £1,276.2 billion (number from OBR. A new estimate yesterday suggested £1,293.1bn, but I’ve not read the detail). According to the 2023 Defence Equipment Plan, equipment expenditure for DNE is to be £9.9bn in the same financial year (source MOD). As a percentage that’s 0.77% of total public spending is being spent on DNE equipment alone. There will be other non-equipment costs too. This is a far cry from the 0.13% of total government spending claimed in the article, which implies only £1.6bn will be spent on DNE.
Similarly UK defence spending is expected to total £56.9 billion in 2024/25 (House of Commons library). Again the DNE equipment budget alone is expected to be 17.3% of the total UK defence budget this year rather than 12%, and around 35% of the defence equipment spend, growing to 40% in future years.
I don’t understand how my figures sourced from MOD and the OBR differ so widely from those in the article. Especially as I was only using equipment spend. I don’t think we have an estimate for DNE spend in other areas. Two possibilities come to mind. That attack submarine production costs are included in DNE, yet most SSNs are not there to support CASD. Even so the discrepency is still enormous. Or DNE support expenditure has been vastly underestimated in the past. I suppose it’s possible that both are true.
Yes. The attack sub costs are included. The attack subs mission does include allowing the SSBN to slip away from Faslane into the Atlantic depths unnoticed by other nations subs.
Not only the reactors but essentially all the internal systems and sensors of the nuclear sub fleet is shared equipment. Its practically impossible to separate them. The tubes and missiles of course come from US.
This week should make it obvious that this system or deterrent is now more important to our security than at any time other time in the last 40 years.
Ukraine will tell you, if you have nuclear weapons, don’t give them up!
Ukraines nukes like Belarus and Kazakstan were unusable. Control codes only came from Moscow. Its the same as for USA systems
It’s not the same for our missiles, now German Nukes are probably kept under lock and key but SSBNs can’t wait for codes, at least in the UK
German nuclear weapons? SSBN’s can’t wait for codes?
Best I can guess is that he meant US weapons stored on German bases.
SSBNs still need authorisation to launch from HQ , I presume codes come with that.
HMS Inskip for one way communication with SSBN
And low frequency HMS Forest Moor
.webp
UK doesn’t use codes for its Trident missiles. SSBNs rx a ‘firing’ message, including the targeting package, which is authenticated on board.
Once authenticed and the targeting data sent to the missiles, they would be launched.
An awful lot happens on board when said firing message is first received to the SM being in a position to shoot.
Not strictly correct the Captain has a letter in the safe I believe for the eventuality that HQ no longer exists.
Then how does the sub during a 3-4 month patrol know when ‘that moment has arrived’.
There obviously has to be launch codes from Northwood even for a mission training sequence when everything but an actual launch happens.
The Lockheed missile is the same as the USN ones so would have the same training/ live *launch sequence* . Codes from HQ
‘letters in safes’ is fantasy for obvious reasons
I wonder why I spent countless hours listening to radio four on the SRE ON PATROL, no launch codes only authentication Deep 32 is correct in what he says as am I.
The SSBN knows when that moment has arrived because one of the main requirements for CASD is for the SM to be in ‘constant communication ‘ (receive mode only) with shore side.
As @Deepsixteen says, we also listen to said radio services, especially any news and sport. Any sudden loss of such services or loss of constant comms from shore side would result in the captain opening his safe and acting iaw what his ‘letter’ says. Yes, it does exist.
The missiles don’t require launch codes to fly, they use a 4 part launch sequence involving humans in the loop to actually fly. I have no idea if the US uses the same procedures that the RN SSBNs use, nor what the French use to launch their missiles.
Semantics over whether ‘authentication’ isnt a ‘launch code’. It will clearly be software driven, and how does software work … digitally
Anecdotes about listening to Radio 4 while deep in the Atlantic, SSBN arent supposed to surface
It is not semantics; you have been told by people who carried out the task that a launch can be carried out without any signal or codes whatsoever. What exactly do you find difficult to understand about that statement?
How do you think we maintain constant communications surely you do not expect us to run around on the surface to do so? I would be exceptionally unhappy if my grumbly gram stopped and Simon can rest assured that instant sunshine would have been delivered as retribution.
They are US missiles in US missiles tubes ( only the warhead part is british) and the launch process using codes even for test purposes would be the same US style authorisation.
Authentication is just another name to ‘beat around the bush.
The PM is the only person who can give launch orders. Not the crew on board. What part of chain of command dont you understand.
i love the letter from the prime minster ‘dear crew, britain is nuclear waste, your families are dead so do as you feel best’
Yes. Every PM writes one when entering office. And they are always destroyed unopened.
Germany is a NATO nuclear sharing nation, with its Tonkas qualified to carry U.S. B61 nuke bombs.
Thanks for that clarification RN tridents have UK warheads of course under sole UK control
Those missiles based in USSR sites were previously under Moscow centralised control and the independence didnt change anything
US warheads carried by european tactical bomber are under dual control
An interesting detail recently when an IRBM attack on Ukraine with conventional warheads happened . The target location was the old Soviet Pivdenmash ballistic missile plant in Dnipro
https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/12/23/inside-ukraines-secret-missile-programme
The UK and France should donate some nukes to Poland and Ukraine.
The US B61 would the only realistic option. The US could do the same as they do elsewhere in Europe. Nether the UK or France have anything.
That said Putin would be forced to attack such a facility, with genuine justification, something we should never give him.
If you still think it is reasonable, just look how the US reacted the last time somebody did it to them, it was the closest we ever came to nuclear war. Nobody wants to go there again.
You should seek mental health help.
Question could you fit a French M51 missile into a Trident tube. Question would the fire control be able to deal with the change of missile. Question with the change in attitude of the US towards the collective defence of Europe is it more logical for the UK to purchase a European missile system and launch system.
I also think that the RAF should have a stand off nuclear capability able to carry four-eight nuclear cruise missileswith a 1,000 mile range and a 100kt warhead.
“Question could you fit a French M51 missile into a Trident tube. Question would the fire control be able to deal with the change of missile.”
That is a very good question!! Currently, UK is not truly independent regarding nuclear deterrence. Option 1 is buy rather than lease its Trident missiles and build the infrastructure to store & reload them. Option 2 is license build M51 and contribute to a M51 successor. Option 3 is cooperate with India on SLBM development.
Well we’re not gonna work with India, no offence but they probably leak like a sieve.
I’m not sure M51 will fit and I think we’re way too late in the process
Good point about India…hadn’t thought of that. Regarding M51, it’s actually shorter, has smaller diameter, and weighs less than Trident. Ron has a good point about fire control, but the bottom line is UK needs to be truly be independent
@basile, I’m not familiar with mieax. What is that? I’m not finding anything in searches.
We should explore how we could manufacture M51 missiles in the UK under licence. The new Dreadnoughts should be designed to take either Trident or M51’s.
After all, if the US (and of course, most here) want us to increase spending, then we should spend it here – or at least in Europe.
Dreadnoughts are under construction. So no possibility of design changes like you say.
Buying French missiles just means its changing one country for another and still in the same dependent situation.
not going to happen
Duker, I’m not suggesting buying M51 (I would want to license build) if its possible to buy Trident. Maybe I don’t understand the leasing thing, but my fear is the US can say “Hey, we’re not going to allow you to lease anymore and you have to give the missiles back to us after your current lease is over”. They could certainly say that the UK can’t use their facilities. My preference would be to buy a stockpile of Trident and home grow the infrastructure to support them so they are removed from US decision making. Then embark on a plan to come up with a Trident successor (which would be a long term project), either unilaterally or in collaboration with another nation.
How was Polaris handled? Did UK own or lease them? Didn’t UK have the infrastructure to support them unilaterally (or am I wrong about that)?
Your and Hugo’s point is well taken about the Dreadnoughts being under construction, but aren’t the tubes in the CMC supposed to be adaptable? That was my impression but I could have misunderstood that or the extent of the adaptability. I appreciate that, in addition to fire control issue Ron mentioned, there is the issue of warhead adaptability if you go to another missile other than Trident, but the article mentions that designing a new warhead is on the cards. Perhaps building that adaptability is beyond the reasonable scope of that effort.
Anyway, I’m concerned that the UK’s nuclear deterrent is not truly independent.
AI says ‘leased’ ??? .
But I understand RN buys its missiles as FMS and the maintenance/overhaul only is done in common with USN
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/us-dod-awards-3-3bn-for-us-uk-trident-ii-support-through-2031/
Same happens with C-17
Thank for the link, Duker. I see “leased” in a lot of I what read, but I like the “sales” in the FMS acronym. Still not comfortable with UK’s reliance on US for support of its deterrence (and I’m a US citizen), but I feel a bit better after reading this article.
I dug into the ‘leased’ claim and it originated from CND !
License build french submarine ballistic missiles ? Its too silly for words. What about all the missile control systems are ‘license build’ too?
Well, I was thinking that if you could license build advanced jet fighters and AIP equipped submarines, you should be able to license build SLBMs, especially if your technically as advanced as the UK. There would certainly be a lot of technology transfer needing to happen, if for no other reason than system compatibility, so your point is well taken. Then there are the politics. Looking into this more, it appears there might also be legal issues related to the transfer of ballistic missile technology.
However, given that the life-extended Trident is projected to go out of service in 2042, and the Dreadnoughts will remain in service for at least 15+ years after that, and how long it takes to develop advanced weapon systems, UK needs to start planning for a successor to Trident. Given that the UK and France are already cooperating on.developing advanced missile systems, it seems to makes sense for the UK to cooperate with France on the next generation of SLBM, if it wants more independence from the US in this area.
The UK bought and owns a proportion of the shared missile pool.
Interesting! Thanks, Deepsixteen. Bought and owns sounds very different from leased, and what you’re saying seems to align with Duker’s post about ownership. So to make the UK deterrent truly independent the UK needs to:
1) Have their proportion of the stockpile stored on UK territory.
2) The infrastructure to maintain and reload those.
RNAD Coulport is the missile storage depot on Loch Long next to Gare Loch and Faslane. For Trident use major and expensive updates were done and its got a loading wharf
Interesting. So, if the US cut off all support for Trident to the UK, how long could the UK, on it’s own, maintain the deterrent do you think?
On fitting a different missile to the tube, liners are a thing that has been used before.
In terms of an RAF “branch” of deterrent, it was scrapped originally because it was taking up something like 10% of the MoD budget. But that was based upon the strategic bomber concept, etc. which was obviously very expensive.
If we’re talking more about a weapon that could be launched by Typhoon/Tempest, which I think would be feasible with the performance characteristics that you’re talking about, then the cost very much comes down to the production and maintenance of the warhead itself (presuming that you could fit the warhead on a FC/ASW, which I admit is quite a big IF). That may still be too high, especially with our current budget, but it becomes more achievable. I guess the question becomes whether we want to get back into the “tactical/small” nuke game.
Conventional SRBMs like Iskander and ATACMs (and PrSM that we should be getting for our M270s) have done well in Ukraine, and they’re cheaper to deliver than air launched ones. That said, Storm Shadow/SCALP and the Russian Kinzhal air-launched missiles have been effective too. I’d want to make sure that we had a good stock of the next-generation conventional cruise/ballistic missiles (both ground and air-launched) before we looked at nuclear ones; but if the same missile can take a nuclear warhead, it’s at least considering. But our defence budget would need to double as a percentage of GDP before I think that’s worthwhile- we have too many other conventional priorities.
All of the delivery systems you describe are defensible and vulnerable to first strike CASD is much harder to defeat or destroy prior to launch.
France still has an airforce based as well as submarine based nuclear deterrent.
Joe 16 , does France have double the defence budget to afford an airforce nuclear deterrent ?
If the enemy has a realistic chance of destroying your deterrent before launch it is not going to deter. Dual use aircraft used to be a thing for the crabs so I suspect that is true of the French airforce as well so no doubling of cost but an uplift for the weapons and an uplift in aircraft numbers
French Navy Rafales also carry the same nuclear missiles.
So ‘double the defence budget’ is ridiculous claim
It certainly is
The evidence is the French defence budget is too far different as a % of GDP- which is roughly the same as GB.
Your claims are false
I think you are responding to the wrong poster? I specifically say “ no doubling of cost” which claims are you saying are false?
Hi Duker, as far as I’m aware, French budget is generally a bit lower or a bit higher than ours, depending on the year.
The way they afford a two-leg deterrent is, as I understand it, not having all the connectors that we do: they borrowed our heavy lift Chinook and C17 for their Mali op, and I don’t think they have the same amphibious capability we do. They also did away with tracked IFVs ages ago, and operate a pretty much medium weight wheeled force with some Leclercs sitting waiting for WW3.
So they’ve made choices elsewhere so they can afford specific things like an airborne nuclear capability. Unlike us, where we try and have a bit of everything and not enough of anything!
To be fair, french have Délégation Général de l’armement which makes best use of every single euro + defence programmes don’t shift.
I wouldn’t argue with that- if my post sounded like criticism, it wasn’t meant to be. I personally (from the outside looking in) think that France spends its money on defence far better/ more efficiently than is done in the UK. The two countries have different aims, so what the money is spent on is also different, but it seems to be spent better from Paris.
No problem! This is the sole public budget we spend well so I HAD to jump in
Agreed, aircraft-launched nuclear weapons are not a good replacement for CASD. But the conversation was about much smaller, tactical weapons- so an expansion of nuclear capability. Different things.
I think I broadly accept the argument that in a post-1945 world Nuclear arms deter the use of Nuclear arms.
However I am increasingly of the opinion that their deterrent effect is increasingly narrow, to just detering the use of Nuclear weapons.
They appear to to do nothing to deter conventional aggression against Nuclear armed states, whether that is 9/11 style or Hezbollah style large scale terrorism or Falklands style conventional war.
They certainly do not have any influence on the decision of non-nuclear entities to defend themselves against nuclear armed states, like Afghanistan or Ukraine.
On top of that is the unknown question of whether anyone in the chai. Of command would really push the button in strategic weapons and all that it might entail.
If we had properly sized and funded conventional forces to deter Russia from surveying our undersea infrastructure, that could last more than a few days of high tempo warfare etc then I would absolutely agree that CASD is worth it.
As it is we seem to be back to 1950s/1960s tripwire defence thinking.
The situation we find ourselves in today, I’m just not sure it’s good, pragmatic bang for bucks.
I’d be very happy to be convinced my thoughts are wrong.
While yes nuclear mainly deters nuclear, a conventional conflict these days will eventually lead to exactly that.
Plus there is a factor of maintaining Britains position in the world. Without nukes we aren’t a remarkable military
Ukraine hasn’t gone nuclear, though it’s unclear what might have been said behind the scenes to stop that happening.
Supposedly the Biden administration made it clear that if a nuke was used in Ukraine, then the full conventional might of the US military would be used against all things Russian located in Ukraine territory.
They deter concentration of conventional force too as we have known it in the industrial age.
Absolutely, although it depends on the leader they are trying to deter. I’m sure Biden would have been more forthright if Putin hadn’t had nuclear weapons.
When you look at the history, in the nuclear age, direct war between nuclear powers mostly doesn’t happen at all.
The only real exception is India and Pakistan, who still have limited boarder clashes but neither side would seriously consider invading the other.
What we see instead are small proxy wars. Ukraine is just the latest example. It like Vietnam and Korea will have its future decided by the nuclear armed powers.
It is widely accepted that any large scale conflict between nuclear armed states would see a least a limited use of nuclear weapons. Enough to scare any politician tempted to start one.
It is much harder to judge the effect of second tier states like the UK and France. Would anything have been different to this point if they had accepted the US nuclear umbrella and gave up its nuclear arms programs in the fifties when everybody else in the west did. Probably not, will it make a difference in the future, that is a much harder question to answer. The future is much less clear than any time since the Cuban missile crisis.
I’m not sure I’d classify Ukraine as a small proxy war, though it’s not US Vs Russia.
Its become one. a European Angola with missiles and heavy mechanised forces !
personally felt safer that we had a boat at sea after putin started his adventures. possibly for domestic consumption but he has spoken about ability to nuke britain or he may have been said to pm johnson. unfortunately nukes cannot be undone
Didnt say that
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yjej0rvw0o
It was in regard to a non nuclear Ukraine using british missiles to attack Russia itself, and it could be construed as a ‘joint attack’
It would be tactical nukes in Ukraine only
This is a question for discussion(!) but whilst CASD is now neccessary (due to Ukraine etc), has CASD been necessary for ALL of the past 30 years? 2 crews per boat plus the working-up and time-off for decompression comes at a very high cost. Would a nuclear armed aggressor really go from being an ‘irritant’ to ‘pressing the button’ without months of escalation beforehand? Could the tempo be reduced with a deterrent ‘mostly’ at sea, most of the time with the facility to surge to CASD achieve the same deterrence effect whilst potentially saving significant cash which could be redirected towards ‘conventional’ equipment and tasking?
If the deterrent isn’t at sea and kind of surprise attack could take out the entire fleet. Also without practice it’ll become easier to predict and track an SSBN that rushed out of port
In answer to your question ‘ has CASD been necessary for the past 30 years’?. Have we had a full blown war with Russia since our very first CASD patrol circa 1969ish? Not we haven’t, so, yes it has proven a successful strategy, and we’ll worth the cost.
The real question is whether the UK can afford to put the rest of the Defence force to rights and still afford to operate a nuclear deterrent based on SSBN’s.
I suppose the question is very much still out on that.
It is all very well to talk about what should be, it is an altogether another matter of what will be.
On current evidence politicians will continue to do things on a shoe string which mean the current management by salami slicing as project costs rise, will continue.
That’s a question for the politicians. If you cut the spend on nuclear to pay for conventional, will the money saved actually go to conventional? Historically, cuts have just led to a reduction in budget.
I’m in favour of a nuclear deterrent for Britain, but against it coming from the same budget as conventional defence. We need to pay for it as separately as possible so we know what’s it’s really costing and can make rational decisions (or as least as rational as incumbent politicians can manage).
Nuclear weapons are cheap. Without the SSBN programme we wouldn’t have SSN’s. There are also questions about maintaining the UK’s industrial base too.
From where this constant rhubarb comes from the that nuclear weapons are curbing our conventional capability comes I don’t know. You wouldn’t get much for the costs of the nuclear programme, but lose a lot more in terms of technology and science.
House of Commons numbers say £12 bill per year for the next 10 years for the whole military nuclear effort.- ‘bell, book and candle’
Yeah we are in the expensive part of the cycle replacing the Boats.
Just two points that I, as a bog standard member of the public, not one of you experts, would like to make. If the missiles (I understand we make the warheads) are leased from the USA then we do not have an independent deterrent. You can mangle the English language as much as you like but that, sadly, is a fact. I would be happier buying rather than leasing. Second point is that I do not like the fact that we do not have a tactical option to deploy before we go all in. For example, if Russia drop a tactical nuclear warhead on Russia how does NATO respond. Given we now have the fat, baddie, orange moron in charge in the USA are any of you confident that he would retaliate in kind. I am not and would like the UK to start building/acquiring tactical nuclear missiles so that we have a flexible response.
That should read on Poland
Tactical risks starting a full on nuclear war, plus its cost.
We do own the missiles we have in the UK, or at less the Americans couldn’t come and rip them out of our hands
Any attack on Poland would evoke Article 5, whether it was conventional or Nuclear.
If Tango Man pulls the US out of Nato, there would still be a Nato. If Russia or China decided to attack the USA, then the remaining Nato members would be under no obligation to respond.
NATO isn’t even necessarily obligated to help the US right now. First it depends on where the US is attacked. If the attack was on, say Pearl Harbor, Puerto Rico or American Samoa, it would be outside of NATO territorial limits, similar to when the Falkland Islands were attacked. Second, even if article 5 was called on for an attack on Washington DC, NATO members don’t have to respond militarily, they only have to respond. So Iceland, which has no military, can be a part of NATO but isn’t going to be attacking China, even if China launches an attack on the US mainland.
However, even if Trump pulls out of NATO, the UK has other agreements with the US and would help. NATO isn’t the only alliance in town. At the end of the day you have to reply on those that are willing. Trump doesn’t seem to understand that. Even though he seems ready to break any agreements the US might have if it suits him, he doesn’t get others might do that to him too.
A proportion of the missiles in Kings bay are bought and paid for by the UK and held in a shared pool with the USA ones and maintained and stored at Kings Bay. They could be stored and maintained in Coulport if we wanted to spend the money.
There are several points that need to be highlighted in the current situation that is unfolding around the world, the 1st, we absolutely need an independent nuclear deterrent,
2nd as Europe has lived under the nuclear umbrella of the the USA, UK and France, with the increasingly uncertainty of the commitment to Europe by the USA may-be it is time for the rest of Europe to help pay for a nuclear deterrent operated by UK and France but for the protection of not just UK and France but the whole of (paying members) of Europe or what is left of Nato if America decides to pull the plug.
3rd, We need to develop our own delivery system as Trident has in the past 2 tests not preformed as it should, plus as mentioned above there is a desperate need to ween our selves off of America and have a totally independent system.
and lastly the Nuclear deterrent should have its own financial support totally independent from the defence budget.
The tests were like 7 years apart with many successful American ones I between
“We need to develop our own delivery system as Trident has in the past 2 test’s not performed as it should”
Wow, let’s ditch this tried and tested system of many decades and build our own….!!! Seriously, You want us to start from scratch, spend decades developing it and untold billions all because of two faulty tests ?
We should be developing our own system because the Americans have the over ride on the Trident system so to be totally “Independent” we need our own delivery system. Also it is quite ironic that the 2 UK failures were from a US stock pile that both the US and the UK have been using (for tests) but the 2 that were selected by the US for use in the UK tests were faulty yet none of the US tests have had any such problems, so either the missile was at fault or the missile/sub interface was at fault either way we need to look at a new delivery system for our (UKs) nuclear deterrent.
And you think that’s going to happen, have you any Idea of the costs ?
Do we have any idea of the costs of not doing it.
Well no I have no Idea at all but I’ll guess that your comments are just typical forum throwaways.
Give us a Figure, tell us your ambitions, Maybe email the MOD with your thoughts, let us know how you get on ?
If you want to know, ask the French.
The French have an AIR LAUNCHED based nuclear deterrent as well, both airforce and carrier based used ASMPA missile
The USA has no “override” on the UK system.
It is necessary now.
Irrespective of whether you believe in the need to retain TRIDENT the argument that you cant look at Through Life costs on TRIDENT seems to me inherently flawed. Lets be clear all MOD projects are now rightly assessed on not just initial acquisition but also TLS costs. This change was rightly introduced some while back as all 3 services had a nasty habit of buying kit but not considering the TLS costs and then lumbering the MOD budget with those costs. Would you buy a car without thinking about warranty and servicing costs of course not. A key factor with TRIDENT is also that you have to look at the total cost of ownership which includes the costs of warhead development and upgrade and all the Nuclear Support costs. This article would be much more effective in supporting the case for TRIDENT if it was a little more balanced.
The cost nominally runs at about 3% of the budget. Three quarters of that keeping Aldermaston going and one quarter on operating the boats.
Cheap. Very, very cheap.
Good point nelson
These are some numbers from a Commons report
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8010/
I think £15 bill had been spent up till 2023 on Dreadnought side
It seems that £130 bill or so over 10 years
Whenever there’s talk about threats to European security America’s nuclear umbrella is mentioned. Fact is, with the current US attitude this umbrella is looking a bit ragged… Russia has a lot of nukes and threatens to use them all the time. China is increasing the number of nukes it has. Countries like India are increasing their nuclear inventory. Quite simply, Europe is the odd one out. Europe may not need to match the US/Russia/China but needs to get a bit closer… I would like to see Europe (including the UK) have about 4-5 times as many warheads as it currently has for the simple reason that it does matter. We also need to be a bit (lot?) more independent from the US…
Totally agree about the independent part!! Also agree about the increase in warheads (maybe by not that much) and, while I’m not a huge fan of proliferation, a couple more countries other than UK and France have nuclear weapons (looking at you, Poland and Sweden).
Yes it is necessary. If we didn’t have the SSBN’s we wouldn’t have the SSN’s. And the SSN’s are useful beyond words.
Nuclear weapons are cheap I suppose.
How much of a real threat the government regards Russia could be gauged by how much they invest in the defence of Faslane more than how many missiles and MIRV’s are carried to sea by the CASD patrols.
I note Israel is not highlighted in the first graphic. 😉 🙂
Although Isreal refused to admit to anything about its nuclear program it’s pretty well recognised that it almost certainly has the full nuclear triad.
Yes. Without a doubt.
South Korea also have a SLBM (and field BrahMos too!)………
Hyunmoo is like a Polaris plus in terms of specifications. It couldn’t replace Trident. But imagine a second wholly British layer to the deterrent.
Not fielding an ocean going SSK is a gap in the RN’s capability. Having a clutch of them so one can sit of northern Norway would be useful. Having a family of them like the SAAB A-26 so the same basic control room deign could be used for boats for different purposes. Imagine 4 coastal variants for training, 4 with VLS to support special tasks around the globe, and 8 for surveillance.
What’s the point of a specifically ocean going SSK over SSNs?
Surely the reason we’d buy them is to fill the gaps in the coastal sphere that our existing fleet can’t do?
The other possible reason is price.
Because they are very quiet.
Because maintaining one on patrol off northern Norway on the edge of Barents Sea requires a larger boat for endurance and range.
Because maintaining one on patrol off Northern Norway on the edge of Barents Sea requires numbers therefore unit cost is an issue.
http://www.hisutton.com/images/Swe_A26_poster.jpg
In the article itself there is a great picture of the RR model of Dreadnought…. can anyone confirm that this is actually a true recreation ? I’ve only ever seen artist’s impressions.
I know the French SSBN has four silos, I don’t know why ours is the same length with fewer silos. At the end of the day, one will ruin your day.
Well extra space for crew and storage is good
Dreadnought will have 12 tubes 8 filled.
Interesting article in ThePinstripedLine;
https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/?m=1
There shouls be a Dreadnought SSGN like USN’s Ohio alas its four boats with a struggling number of sibmariners.
I think the very sudden geopolitical changes we have seen mean we need a complete rethink on our nuclear deterrent.
1) Europe now needs a fully viable MAD deterrent as the European Nuclear deterrents can no longer be considered an adjunct to the U.S. nuclear umbrella but need to be viable in providing MAD against Russia.
2) Can the US be considered a reliable partner in helping the UK to maintain its trident missiles and the UK needs US support to maintain its trident missiles. What happens of Russia offers trump something BIG if he stops supporting the maintenance of UK trident missiles?
personally I think European nations need a shared 1000 warhead deterrent that should include:
1) The UK and France sharing deployments to try and maintain 3 ballistic missiles armed submarines on station at any one time..it should be possible with 8 submarines.
2) the UK and France should maintain their Sub launched missiles at 100 warhead per boats..for 300 warheads at sea at a time..for this the Uk would need 3 sets of 100 warheads+ spares so 300 operational…France close to this level already. ( 600 total warheads)
3) France to work with UK Germany and Italy to fit ASMPA-R to Typhoon and build 350 more missiles and warheads.. for a total of 400..France,Germany, UK and Italy to have 100 each.
Uk to consider viability of trident and instead partner with France on development of SLBM as well as future nuclear cruise missile and warheads..moving to a joint French and UK sovereign nuclear programme. With Germany, Italy and Poland as future nuclear cruise missile customers…let’s be honest NPT is and has been dead for ages.
The EU’s trouble is that it should have been an associate, a league, of independent states and not an unrealistic attempt at founding a Europe wide socialist state.
We don’t know what the EU or Western Europe will look like by the end of Trumpian era. I think it is likely that Western Europe will look like South East Asia or Latin America. A collection of separate states with broad shared cultural elements but mostly standing on their own or in much reduced blocs. So the Scandi’s would be a bloc or Poland and the Baltics another. Italy will lead the south east corner and so on. France will sail on majestically being France……….
Two things though the UK won’t play a part in it. The UK is destined to follow the US. And the Russians aren’t coming.
France will continue with the bomb. Germany and Italy won’t bother. I could see the Poles deciding they need them. But the idea of joint European defence projects to build something actually dangerous? No. It won’t happen.
If I were in DNE right now, I’d be costing up a fifth Dreadnought. I always opposed those who suggested it in the past, but if there’s a possibility of officially including Germany under a joint Anglo-French umbrella and getting Germany to help pay for that, it’s worth considering. Having the UK and France dependent on each other vastly reduces the deterrent effect, so no pooling capability IMO. Both countries must be able to fire independently.
If we look at 96 warheads per boat (plus decoys) with four boats containing missiles at any one time, I think we’d have to go to 750 warheads, more than tripling the cap and probably multiplying the stockpile by five. That’s a heck of a lot of money and a long time to reach the goal. There’s no instant fix here. The one obvious thing is ensuring that future governments can’t unilaterally reduce the number of warheads without a separate vote in Parliament — I’d also consider keeping a minimum number agreed by international treaty with say Germany or France. Virtue signalling for peace is ruinously expensive and we’d have been far better off keeping the 500 warhead stockpile we had in the Cold War.
I think the cheapest way to become more independent of the US is getting Lockheed Martin to open a refit and maintenance facility for Trident in the UK. Again, very expensive, but better than the alternative.
The missile tube hatch rings for boat five of the Polaris boats were still in Barrow when we were building the Vanguard.
The R boat SSBN had a US missile tubes like the later V class and the upcoming Dreadnoughts.
Why would an orphan US made part still be in the sheds decades later ?
My understanding is they bought the kit for five Boats and they still had them on the you never know basis, not in store at that point literally lying around in the yard near the build crew building. I expect that at that point they were ready to go to scrap R boat tubes no potential use from that point no real knowledge other than recognition of the item.
A more in-depth look at the UK’s Nuclear capabilities can be found via this LINK.

Worth reading.
Bang on NL – only four countries in the world could build these (the Chinese boats look like photocopied delta’s and I don’t believe they practice CASD) – and qualitatively ours will be better than everyone else’s. We should be very very proud as a nation we can do things like this. And some of the tech – especially the reactors – have civil applications so its an investment that can be leveraged elsewhere.
Using Trident rather than a domestic system makes it affordable. Many question the special relationship, but Lord Mountbatten getting us access to nuclear sub tech and then later Polaris is as special as international relationships get.
Only in bonkers Britain would we even question retaining a capability most countries would kill (literally, unfortunately) to acquire….
…But then again, we just ditched our amphibious forces. We are the only country to ever launch a satellite into space and shelve that capability. Binning off Trident would be wholly coherent with the idiocy of our political classes…. and our current defence secretary voted against Tridents renewal.
LIAR
https://votes.parliament.uk/votes/commons/division/113
141 labour Mps including Healey voted AYE
My apologies – I meant our current Foreign Secretary David Lammy voted not to renew trident. The deputy PM and at least one other cabinet member also voted against renewal…
This article is a prime example of the old Cold War thinking. The Americans are negotiating a comprehensive peace with Russia now and Europe including ourselves are an irrelevance. Thirty five years of Neo Liberalism spearheaded by Washington has hollowed out our economy including our armed forces. In spite of Trump’s rhetoric there are hints that peaceful negotiations with China might be on the cards. Our expensive aircraft carriers are just white elephants, lumbering about looking for an enemy to take on that won’t sink them within five minutes. C’mon Argentina, step up to the mark.
You just made the case to retain our independent deterrent if Fart decides to leave NATO we will at least have some chance of defending our selves.
Nobody is going to invade Western Europe. Western Europe has nothing, NOTHING.
Russia isn’t coming why would they?
Yes. It was the victorious western allies who invaded the new Soviet Russia in 1919-20 .
Britain France, US, Japan had around 200,000 troops all up to try to effect the civil war.
Last time Russian troops were in Paris ( plus Prussians and British) was after the defeat of Napoleon. And they went home afterwards
Never said they were, neither you nor I know the future but the world does look a lot more problematic. Talk quietly and carry a big stick is a good attitude, thought you were pro deterrent? In any case I personally prefer the country to have adequate defences and find myself frequently sure that we do not and worry for my boy who serves in the Army.
It’s early days yet, but the Trump admin are talking about Nuclear weapons control to reduce the risk of total destruction. Russia and China are not going to accept an international settlement that doesn’t include the UK, France and Israel. N.Korea would be a concern for the USA.
As a Frenchman I am proud of our truly independent nuclear deterrent. Might the solution be for Britain considering the angst expressed by many here about dependance on US, to come to an agreement with France to licence build
1- M51 missiles
2- ASMP-NG stand off tactical nuclear missiles to be carried by Typhoons in a similar way to Rafales ‘B’ and Rafales Marines ?
The Trident missiles are under British sovereign control , not dual control. The US position is happy GB pays for their own defence, especially by sourcing from US- except the warheads
Trump is just ending the Ukraine war the same way he did for Afghanistan, dealing directly with the other side. Didn’t ask Nato either, who for weird reasons were also fighting in Afghanistan
The world didnt end
Nato was in Afghanistan under artical 5 of the Nato alliance and was the only time that artical 5 has been insisted on and by who, George Bush the US president due to the attack on the twin towers in New York.
Trump then Biden left all of the US’s allies in the lurch not just in Afghanistan but in Syria as well, If you look at the war dead in Afghanistan and the Middle East yes a lot come from the USA but there are a sizable number from most of the Nato countries as well did they all die for nothing!!!!
Trident like all modern US supplied equipment has a back door so that the said equipment cannot be uses against the US, a lesson learnt after the Iranian revolution when Iran was using F14 Tomcats (among other US supplied equipment) supply to the Shar of Iran to attack and threaten US and allied targets in the Middle East.
You are asserting that Trident has a back door, unless you produce evidence of this and a detailed explanation of how that would function you are just making it up as you go along.
You know full well that such evidence would lead to a lot of people going to jail but if you are looking for proof of intent then look no further than Ukraine’s problems using US weapons to strike at targets inside Russia.
Go on then start with how you communicate with the Missile in flight.
Are you saying that you cannot talk to a missile in flight!!!
Clearly you can if said missile has a receiver of some kind, however once the D5 leaves the tube it is on its own. I await your conspiracy theory as to how you are going to interfere with the Trident post launch unless you have fitted the rather substantial and obvious equipment required for a test launch on DASO.
So how do they make sure the missile is doing what it is supposed to do.
You don’t, waiting to hear your theory/explanation got back your assertion
Are you really saying that we do not monitor a missile after launch, !!!
Trump ordered a withdraw from Syria and the Pentagon ignored him.
Team Biden didn’t remove them either.
So what are you on about?
I am not sure what you are saying.
Is the US still in Syria? Yes.
Did the Pentagon disobey an order from President Trump? Yes.
What European NATO’s logistical capability has to do with that I don’t know.
Keep taking the tablets.
Nato wasnt in Afghanistan because of Article 5 . The US declined that offer after 9/11 Plus Afghanistan was ‘out of area’
There was two different Nato missions
Directly after the attack on the twin towers artical 5 was triggered but it was a joint American/British attack on Tora-Bora on the Afgan/Pakistan border that was the first engagement which was mainly an SF affair backed up by the M+AW group RM in which we smashed the Taliban, the few that escaped crossed over to Pakistan, who then went on to rearm and regroup with direct aid from Pakistan,
It was then decided (by the American’s) to open a 2nd front by attacking Iraq to remove Sadam Husain, again we (the coalition but mainly US) smashed the opersition.
After being allowed to re-group as a result of the Americans being side tracked by Iraq the Taliban then re-established its presence in Afghanistan, so as a result the USA now had 2 very active war’s which was taking there toll on not just American troops but its allies mainly the UK who now like the Americans had 2 wars to contend with.
In Iraq the American’s had a “coalition of the willing” America, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, Romania, and even Japan had troops on the ground.
But Afghanistan was diffrent with some willing countries sending troops but not enough so the Americans having got the Artical 5 already triggered (after the initial attack) lent on Nato to help with its war efforts so we see the French take on a large area in the North of Afghanistan aided by smaller contingents from mainly the Eastern European members of Europe, Canada it has to be said supported America through all its campaigns only to be shit on by Mr Trump
The Nato training missions came a lot later but all concerned were let down by the sudden change of hart by the American, none more so than the Afgan people them selves.
I wish the UK with the Wh!t£ Commonwealth had been more ‘French’ in their attitude to security (well everything!) and continued to plough own own furrow post WW2. A Western security structure based on three pillars, the US, the Wh!t£ Commonwealth, and a Europe based on three pillars itself France, Germany and Italy would have been more stable. But Western security we have is more about keeping the US safe.
UK lost it all prior to WW2, The Empire was undermined by the USA, It was The USA that sat back and waited until the UK was so desperate …. They even had the Red Plan , We never countered that, we just had to concentrate on three fronts and hope the USA would join in on our side eventually.
8 Decades of helping the US have shown that Trump is more interested in Minerals than British Loyalty.
Feck him, It’s about time we grew some good old British Bollocks and did what we used to do so well.
There was no such thing as the ‘Special Relationship’ (whatever that is) before WW2 so it was understandable that the US had prepared staff plans.
Help implies the UK had a choice. Suez was the time the UK should have started to make moves. It would have been clear to the leadership of the West that the USSR post Stalin wasn’t coming.
I am not sure what minerals you are talking about.
You are one of those who appears to be suffering both Trump Derangement Syndrome and Putin Derangement Syndrome too. I am not sure what to suggest. The EU without Germany is going to collapse.
nah mate, I’m not suffering any deranged thinking at all, I just see you hero Putin killing untold numbers of people for no other reason than his own Ego…. pretty much like Trump is now doing in his own attempts to make money.
You’re not really French really are you…. just another random name masquerading as some other comment Handle. Trying to get attention.
It’s OK, Not all of us here are so gullible.
I am French. I’ve lived in Scotland for 43 years and my wife is Scottish. Our 2 children have dual nationality and I did my military service in the French air force when I was a young man.
So you are Scottish then. I could claim to be either Scottish, English, French and German based on your claim.
Yes, definitely. What has happened over the last week marks the end of the Atlantic Alliance as we know it. The trans-Atlantic relationship going forward will be far more transactional, with the US prepared to give Russia free rein in return for a trade deal. The US no longer sees Europe as critical to its national security whereas to the U.K. it is absolutely fundamental – our foreign policies have now diverged in a polar opposite direction and we need to pivot to a Britain First policy.
It’s not hard to imagine a scenario where Trump (or his likely successor Vance) threatens to withdraw support for Trident unless the U.K. agrees to unfettered access for e.g. US agri products.
France is the only other nuclear show in town and its European security is intrinsically intertwined with ours. Given the UKs lack of tactical nukes, ASMP (urgently) and ASN4G is the obvious place to start.
Good to hear another perspective. Could you comment on the general feeling amongst French defence commentators on the performance of France and it’s defence industry, is it as doom laden and defeatist as our commentators appear to be?
I recommend the Opex 360 website to learn more about the French perspective. We are just as critical of our own government as you are of yours but it is fair to say that we believe our defense industry is more efficient although we are still woefully short of naval assets (frigates) and fighter aircraft.
Thanks for link. A bit irritating having to read chunks in translation, but interesting nonetheless. I note the strong support of many for their domestic contractors, totally absent on U.K. defence blogs, and the low level anti German sentiment. But a bit shocked by the absence of the obligatory (on U.K. bogs) of the anti government sentiment.
“The US could withdraw technical assistance and maintenance support for the missiles, which would eventually render the UK deterrent inoperable after several months.”
Is it really as short as several months? Surely we have sufficient technical know how to keep them going for a lot longer than that? Even the Iranians managed to keep F14s going for decades…
Retaining a nuclear deterrent has never been more important. The real issue is whether we should continue to rely on the US or look to collaborate with France, which would, in the short term, mean buying M51s for the Dreadnaughts before collaborating on a new jointly developed SLBM.
Bob, stop it now…. You are new here, yet you seem to type the same stuff that a few other new posters are typing. Give it up with your M51 shit…. UK will never go down that route.
Thanks Jim. I’ve followed this site for a long time and am only now posting to get some info from informed commentators about the options open to the U.K. to maintain our nuclear deterrent if Trump withdraws support. Somewhere in Whitehall a contingency plan is being dusted down.
Equally the ASMP and later the ASN4G would fill a critical gap in our nuclear arsenal given Russian doctrine about the use of tactical nukes.
It would be irresponsible not to be considering all options given what has happened over the last 2 weeks and the likely Munich style agreement for Ukraine being planned by Putin and Trump.
A lot of people think allying with the French to get access to the M51 would be a step in the right direction.
Mon ami, your comment has been truncated. Keen to hear the French perspective and whether you’d be willing to collaborate with perfidious Albion against the bloodthirsty Russian bear.