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Watcherzero

Mmm, Prince of Wales will have to take over the exercise duties but she will suddenly decide a few days later to have a shakedown cruise to the Red Sea, just to iron out that prop issue.

Phil Chadwick

The prop issue has already been ironed out on her trip to the USA last year.

Watcherzero

QE and her new prop issue not POW.

Last edited 20 days ago by Watcherzero
Jonathan

I was thinking that myself..it does mean that once this “issue” is resolved we will have a spare carrier not doing what it was planning to do.

Rand

No surprise!

Drunken drunken

OK, you’ve got this about 2 hours after the ships companies got their rapide recall text messages…… You have some very interesting sources.
Both of these ships have been working so hard to get ready to go.
This is a bitter blow to those of us on QE who have tried to get the ship out and over the line. She is a damn good ship and will perform….. We are just the unfortunate victims of a potential design issue.
But we should all remember than because these ships cost what they did, we have 2 of them here and now…….if they were the most expensive version they could be , we might only have 1 and maybe none!

Lord Hood

I saw the reference to NavyLookout in the Telegraph article earlier. I get the feeling that the tide of neglect has finally turned after all these years…thank goodness for that!

Sean

Possibly not even a design issue, just a construction/fitting-out issue.
If you look at the history of the RN, some of its finest and glorious ships have had far worse issues entering service than the QE Class carriers.

Duncan

If a coupling only has limited safety margin, it’s probable it’s a design /specification issue

Don billows

Pair of useless hulks.

Sean

Not a nice way to refer to yourself and your Mrs..

Peter Bowerman

Rubbish! You’re totally ignoring the fact that vessel’s this size apart from smaller onboard systems, can’t be tested until it is completed and goes for sea trials. Look at all the problems the Americans had to iron out in their latest carriers!

c h james

But it well known long shafts are trouble.

ATH

How long do you think the shafts were on a WW2 Battleship or post war stream turbine powered aircraft carrier?

Duker

Rolls Royce
The propeller shafts run approximately one third of the length of the 290 meter ships, and Rolls-Royce has also completed the Michell line shaft bearings, which support the weight of the propellers and rotating shafts along the hull of the ship. During operation, the bearings are designed to generate a film of oil, which is typically around the thickness of a human hair, between the bearing surfaces and shafts on which the bearing loads are supported.’
https://gcaptain.com/control-50000-shaft-horsepower/

RRnewcastle21
Jonno

Used to be wooden plumber blocks. Friend has part of one from Hood.

jack

Salt corrosion most probably, lol.

Emilio Meneses

You are right. It is always useful to take into account what might have been the other options available, all of them were suboptimal.

Jonathan

Hopefully something that can be rectified soon and the RN will have QE ready…after all if the POW is covering steadfast defender there will be no more barriers to the EQ deploying into the gulf of Aden/Red Sea when the Eisenhower should be heading home in 4 months or so…it would be a shame if this is something that cannot be overcome before the QE heads into refit at the end of the year.

Phil Chadwick

Let’s see how quickly the RN, the Dockyard and all contractors step up to the plate. This is a good opportunity to exercise getting a Carrier ready in an emergency. USS Dwight D Eisenhower may require a relief in a couple of months so getting R09 ready to go ASAP is pivotal.

Sean

Yes quickly getting Prince of Wales ready in these circumstances is going to be a very useful exercise for the RN to practice responding to a black swan event.

Watcherzero

Meanwhile RAF is bombing Yemen again tonight.

Hormblower

Yeah, because the RAF has a long tradition of not being brave enough to bomb during the day.

Junglierating

You know what you maybe having an easy pop at the crabs but just in case there is a possibility you are not ….it makes tactical good sense to attack at night or first light.

Watcherzero

Conservative Chair of the Commons Defence Committee has been doing the rounds of the Sunday Conservative papers leaking that his committee is going to produce a damning report saying there is a recruitment crisis and weapon and ammunition stockpiles are too small with the armed forces ‘hollowed out’ and demanding ‘immediate action’. Until two years ago he was the Minister of State for Defence Procurement so got himself to blame.

Last edited 20 days ago by Watcherzero
KEELHAULER

Maybe he can’t stand Grant Shapps?

Duncan

This has been going in for years. His Tonyness cut T45 to only 6, Gordon made sure the carriers were built a stiebs throw from his constituency. 2010 Cameron defence review killed T22, carrier and harrier. It’s nit so much the party, as the public perception and need for defence. The public need to want it….. Possibly over and above health, education and welfare. That’s the real disconnect and issue.

Daniel

If I recall correctly His Tonyness only cut Type 45 to 8, it was Cameron who cancelled the last two. 8 Type 45s would be really useful right about now… Agree with the overall point though.

Mike Salt

The decision to cut the order from 8 to 6 was made in 2008 under a Labour government led by PM Brown. We were told at the time this was to pay for CEC, which the T45s never received

Jimbo

Did a quick look around on CEC years ago with Raytheon. Very, very impressive. Funny how our supposedly poor cousins (Australia) have it and we don’t.
As I also remember it cost more to purchase 6 45’s and not 12 due to economies of scale.
I think only India has a worse procurement system than us

Gunbuster

CEC is a data link. All the info is already there.
Its of particular use for semi active missiles to allow other units to illuminate a target.
As the RN only uses active homers its not really required.

Jimbo

CEC is far far more than a data link

Jimbo

As stated it is far more than a data link, however you are correct in that it would tie us in to the US even more than now.
When we visited Raytheon we bought back all the required information including VHS tapes (remember them)? Plus all the publicity blurb. When we arrived back at Dryad everything and I mean everything had to be given up to the MWC never to be seen again

Netking

Lol, come on now. You know CEC is way more than a data link. These modern warfare concepts like Information Dominance and Network Centric Warfare gives you an idea of what CEC is all about. Think back to an experiment a few years ago where a f-35 guided a sm-6 which is an ARH missile, was fired from a DDG at a target that was well beyond the range of it’s own radar. The actual distance to the target is still classified but it’s speculated to be approaching 500km. It’s hard to justify why the RN with it’s limited ship numbers does not have CEC or a similar system using RN sensors and weapons.

Last edited 19 days ago by Netking
Supportive Bloke

Well if you look at various press releases RN have trialled firing weapons that were directed by Typhoon.

CEC is a very 90’s approach to brute force data sharing.

John fedup

Well Canada could likely compete in the worst military procurement race!

Bob M

No Canada has the worst, our clowns struggle to get rifles selected, ordered and delivered.

Hormblower

Is the Canadian army still allowed to have rifles ?

Iseenoships

So do our clowns!!

Gunbuster

Could have been worse. We could have had 5 with a full CLS package. Or as they went for 6 and no CLS package. Spent a metric s*** tonne of cash on supporting them in the early years where the contractor could pretty much demand a blank cheque.

Supportive Bloke

It was always a 3 + 3 order? I never heard of 3 + 2??

I agree there was a blank cheque period when Sea Viper didn’t actually work for some years and this had to be fixed.

Which way why a lot of people were wary of a repeat with PiP and the can on that got kicked.

To some people T45 was viewed as a money pit….

Ironically it was Sunak/Wallace who agreed on funding ‘get what you have working properly’. Hence PiP.

Swerving CEC was a really good move as it would have locked RN into expensive ongoing US contracts. This way with the system that has been developed RN gas best of both worlds without the financial headaches and delays of dancing to a 3rd party. There is also the issue of Franco/US cooperation which would have been interesting….

FieldLander

Wholly incorrect to say that Sea Viper ‘did not actually work for some years’. There was a short hiatus with Aster 30 deliveries following failures during Qualification testing documented accurately in the Open Source Wiipedia. The System has always worked in service, as demonstrated recently ‘in the real world’.

Supportive Bloke

It worked perfectly about three years after Daring was commissioned.

I agree it works perfectly now.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmpubacc/372/372.pdf

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/091085ii.pdf

To say it work perfectly at launch would be apply more semantic stress than the English language could resemble be expected to bear. To reuse a phase from great, fictional, Sir Humphrey Appleby.

Supportive Bloke

*reasonably be expected to…..

Jonathan

Indeed she was commissioned in 2009 but did not successfully fire an Aster missile until 2011 and it was not until 2012 that she was deployed..her first in class trials were long and protracted around the PAAMs and Aster missiles.

FieldLander

HAS Daring was commissioned in July 2009:
HMS Daring (D32) – Wikipedia
HMS Dauntless conducted the first Sea Viper firing from a Type 45 in September 2010.
HMS Dauntless (D33) – Wikipedia
It worked perfectly.

Supportive Bloke

But that 2010 test was against a sub sonic target which didn’t prove a great deal…..at the time I recall being a bit concerned about that. There was a lot of rhubarb about ‘it will cost so much’……which told me everything I needed to know.

It wasn’t until 2011/12 (can’t remember – it was published in Hansard at the time but cannot find it) that a proper supersonic test was done and the missile hardware/firmware was fixed. That is the point at which I would say the full system was fully operational to specification.

BTW I am *not* criticising the UK end of the Sea Viper development. The issue was with some of the French manufacturing/software being a bit off.

Duker

The Aster missile had been developed for the Italian and French destroyers and CdG of course – where it was test fired in 2001 and 2002.

Further validation and development was required for the RNs different radars and combat system, as mentioned above

Supportive Bloke

Nope

There was a significant issue with the way the missiles had been produced that needed to rectified and this affected all flavours of missile wether going into Daring or Horizon Class.

It has nothing to do with different validation. It was a deign manufacturing issue relating the specific missiles that were made for Daring & Horizon Class.

Duker

So it was in service for the French and Italians long before T45 test fired them, which did require a new validation process for the different radars and combat system.
These are irrefutable facts , the issue you raise is a minor one over a missile body strake that wasnt up to spec.

Jon

Poacher turned gamekeeper, I hope. I really didn’t rate him as Procurement Minister and we’ll have to see how he shapes up in this job. He’s only been chair a month so much of the report won’t have his stamp on it.

Bill_Dundass

Can we do what they did with HMS Hood and just send her out with civilian workers on board, I mean, what’s the worst that could happen?

David Barry

It wasn’t Hood.

It was Prince of Wales.

Duncan

It’s not a lack of experience and expertise…… Its a physical problem that probably needs a dock sadly

Hugo

Could really do with a dock in Portsmouth tbh. Just so minor work like this can be done quicker.

ATH

I bet getting the part need will take much longer than getting the ship into Rosyth. It’s less than a day and a halfs sail even on one engine to get there.

Would you put at the very least 2 or 3 Hundred million pounds into a new dry dock to occasionally save this amount of sailing time?

Hugo

And what if both ships needed dry docked? Even for a short period of time. Its better to have more options for maintenance. Plus it would allow Rosyth to do more large scale ship building.

ATH

If they both needed to dry dock then the MoD would need to hire whatever large commercial dry docks available or the ships would need to queue for Rosyth. The other dry docks at Rosyth allow quite big ships to be built their.
The MoD has a very tight budget, it can’t blow half a BILLION on a nice to have projects when so mean priority projects can’t get funding.

Duker

A floating dry dock could be bought . BAE uses a large one in San Diego thats 950 ft long

lhd-vessel-in-poca-floating-dock1
Supportive Bloke

There is a massive dry dock in Belfast too that is, as far I know, fully operational.

SailorBoy

Well, I’m sure if you demolished those godawful tower blocks in Gosport there’d be space… The boating lake is conveniently close as well

Jonathan

Hood was really really old..built for a different war…the civilian workers were on the prince of wales which was really really new. Which was why she had civilian workers on board..but that was the least of the problems with that class of battleship…the main problem was they were a bit shite…

Jonathan

Hood was really really old..built for a different war…the civilian workers were on the prince of wales which was really really new. Which was why she had civilian workers on board..but that was the least of the problems with that class of battleship…the main problem was they were a bit poor..

Jonno

Hood had to call off chase of the FS Strasbourg due to burst boiler tubes. She was in dire need of a refit and should have been rebuilt prewar but as we know this wasn’t done.
Interested to know if QE had been on an emergency power trial when last out. Her design speed is a modest 26kn but allegedly can easily exceed this.

Gavin Gordon

Since you mention, I was just the other day contemplating HMS Hood, but with regard to Type 45. Handily, and very necessarily, we’re in the process of adding Sea Ceptor to the mix.
But maybe not quite so handy could be having very little comparative explosive potential until you get immediately forward of the bridge. In close order, all within the narrowing bow section of these warships:-
containered anti-ship on deck; Sea Viper area defence silo: 2 x Sea Ceptor local defence silos: 114mm medium caliber gun over magazine. Serious attention regarding enhanced small caliber guns and future point defence technology, notwithstanding the current 30mm & 20mm ciws outfits, seems warranted I think.
Type 26 & T31 do evidently attempt to spread the risk somewhat, within the confines of modern lightweight hulls, so trust that the T83 air defence design takes it’s basic cues from these latter frigates, but more so.

Iseenoships

Gun size and the air protection was the problem.Even then our government followed the naval treaty rules and restricted the size…….Unfortunately we were the only ones following the rules…..sounds familiar dosnt it, ships without the required weapons.

Jonathan

Indeed they were essentially outclassed by their contemporaries..simply because no other nation keep to the treaty.

DaSaint

The benefit of at least 2 carriers. Hope this is resolved in a few weeks.

ATH

It’ll depend on parts availability. If the parts are 6months away then odds on they will combine this with QE’s planned refit which was due to start late this year. If on the other had the bits are available off the shelf then hopefully it’ll be all sorted out by mid late spring.

Rob Cameron

More bad publicicity. Can’t blame the personnel on the ship(s) but it’s clear that there’s a lot wrong.
Can’t recruit and can’t retain.
Flag ship finds a fault 24 hours before sailing. My generation only had PSL logs and job cards but I reckon we would’ve found a fault long before this point of departure.
Slightly before my time but in ’82 they got two flat-tops off the wall in 72 hours (I think Invincible was trailing a shaft but…….). I think that whatever it takes, in 72 hours either QE or PoW needs to be off the wall and at sea otherwise the RN is knackered, in the eyes of the public, media and politicians for another 20 years. Just make it happen…….

Prototype

I’m sorry, but I also grew up with psl logs and job cards. You 100% would not have found this any earlier than we did. Because when you were not using your sharp pencil and clear concise, the actual job was actually done weeks ago. But the grown ups have to decide what to do about it. What you didn’t have was a risk construct and a risk holder. After nimrod fell out of the sky, it was realised that maybe someone rather high up should hold the risk and importantly the liability for all the risky and sketchy things we do I defence……it’s a good idea as dead people in peace time isn’t a good recruitment tool. So, the issue was found a while ago, the decision not to sail was made late this evening, not be the those of us doing the job.
Now kindly stop rubbishing us and cease gatekeeping the oast as being better than us.
We could easily trail said shaft if necessary BTW!

Gunbuster

“Sharp Pencil clear conscience”– haven’t heard that for a while.. 🙂

I had PSL Logs to start with back in the early 80s and eventually migrated to UMMS and was UMMSMAN as the WOWE in the 2010s. UMMS is better for risk management and record keeping. Late found snags always happen

100% agree that the risk is high enough to not risk QE going. We are not despite what everyone thinks at war or in a war time state. Nobody is going to risk it for a biscuit unless a full on shooting war develops.

Rob Cameron

@prototype You’re being (possibly understandably) a bit emotional and then getting aggressive. Re-read my comment, I laid no blame at the ship’s company. The articles in media suggested that the fault had just been discovered; I questioned the maintenance routine. You’ve now stated this was discovered a few weeks ago. Therefore my comment, based on the original article, was incorrect. I apologise.
I’m actually quite supportive of the current mob and jump to your defence when criticised. I’m surrounded by civvies, they get their ‘news’ through MSM and the RN is getting a kick-in over the last few weeks.
Your ‘Lords and Masters’ have a lot to do otherwise the owner of this website will have to revert the name to ‘Save The Royal Navy’! All the best over the next few days and weeks.

Jonathan

you could trail the shaft..but barring world war three that would be a profoundly silly idea and as you noted a good way to end up killing some sailors and losing the vessel….only being a civilian sailor, if someone asked me to to take out a broken boat into the Ogin I would tell them were to stick it…but then I’m also a risk owner of some pretty nasty risks in my day job and have seen up close and personal ( actually seen the bodies) what happens when people take liberties with catastrophic level risks using the “ well it probably won’t happen” approach…yes it will…not giving people time to do safety checks kills people…not having the correct staff or skill mix, kills people not maintaining your equipment, kills people… trailing one shaft will cause a ship founder..maybe not that day or that ship…but some ship and some sailors..…people get killed all the time by someone doing “that thing we have aways done”..because “we got away with it before”….I really really have a problem with people who cannot accept that just because they got away with it once or twice does not mean it’s not going bit them or someone on the arse and cause dead bodies for little or no reason.

Mike

You cannot trail shaft, while under way, propeller has to be off. Look what was done on POW

Supportive Bloke

Depends on the fault?

Perfectly possible to trail a shaft if it is declutched or in free rotation?

Just not a terribly sensible idea as there is a single point of failure to lead to a total loss of propulsion.

Really QEC should have been four shafts….that way you would run on one symmetrical pair.

Dave geddes

Seems lots of problems for a new ship,

CGH

I hope HMS Prince of Wales has now belatedly been fitted with 3 or 4 Vulcan Phalanx, before she goes into harms way. Both ships should be fitted with Sea Ceptre, preferably the ER, Extended Range version & a couple of 56mm guns. A few days ago a drone got through a Nimitz class’s escort’s defences in the Gulf & was stopped by it’s own Phalanx.

Sean

Only to those who know nothing about ships.

Robbo

Bathtub curve

Jonathan

Ships and boats always have problems..first they are massively complex bits of kit, second the dynamic forces they suffer are the most complex, random and strongest any man made object has to deal with…and finally they live in one of the most corrosive environments….boats and ships spend their entire lives being randomly stresses across every possible plane…while constantly suffering from rotting…I spend half my life fixing my poor boat…cus the sea keeps breaking it.

[…] The ship has not been affected by the same issue as HMS Prince of Wales and remains ‘in class’ or seaworthy, navy news and analysis site Navy Lookout reports. […]

Iain Sanders

Crapola.

Theoden

Article and comments very helpful. Thank you.

Whitesand

This linked to the photo in the Daily Telegraph of the missile container space on our destroyers containing instead gym training appliances is totally embarrasing, but far worse shameful. We are being made fools of and Britain is living a myth. Time for a reality check.

Sean

First reality check is to stop reading The Daily Telegraph…

If you read Navy Lookout for your defence news you would know the spare space on the T45 was for growth/future-expansion. While unused it is being utilised as a gym. Future growth has already been announced with the addition of Sea Ceptor.

Last edited 20 days ago by Sean
Jonathan

Actually that space was in built for expansion if and when needed..it’s called building a hull with space for capacity to be developed …the T45 has its full missile fit as designed. No one considers the RN foolish..it’s one of a handful of blue water navies in the world and is the third most potent navy on the planet ( not the third largest, but numbers are less meaningful to blue whiter navies).…as for carriers the reality is the only other navy on the planet other than the USN with the ability to deploy a 5th generation navel air wing is the RN…has it got issues yes…is it still one of the most potent navel forces on the planet..yes

Robbo

I was very disappointed when Paddy O Connell interviewed Tobias Ellwood, ex Chairman of the Commons Defence Committee this Morning on Radio 4’s Broadcasting House. Tobias Ellwood stated that most western Destroyers had Tomahawk missiles or equivalent, but not the T45 and that they would have to look at that.

He made no mention of the FFBNW policy that delivers RN warships without a full capability at a reduced cost, to match a parsimonious HM Treasury’s figures.

Was he really unaware of the detail, or too embarrassed with regard to successive conservative governments avoidance of committing to Defence of the Realm?

Duker

Most western destroyers had Tomahawk ?
Its only operator is USN and Royal Navy ( in subs). The ‘others’ you refer to are just *interested* or ( Dutch) very recent approval to buy

Supportive Bloke

AUS has contacted for a whole pile or them as has JPN?

But I do take your point that up to the last 18 months TLAM has not been spread about. Initially US wouldn’t sell TLAM generally.

Now TLAM is a bit older hat US is happy to sell it to NATO more generally.

Niall

It’s embarrassing to say it’s a good thing to have two expensive items to justify the poor construction of both – maybe one that worked all the time is better when elsewhere it appears the VLS space on the type 45 is used for a gym due to lack of funds to buy land attack missiles? Also is it too much to expect the contractors who built the carriers to either pay force these problems or be black listed from future work?

Jon

No ship can work all the time. They have to go in for periodic maintenance and refit. Not to mention upgrades. Also it would be the crew that was breaking down if it was on deployment 24/7 for the fifty year lifespan. This idea that if you build it better you could have one that worked all the time is a fiction.

As for forcing the contractors to pay for a fault that came to light six or seven years after handover, imagine how much up-front money the government would have had to pay for an unlimited lifetime warrantee. What was the last item you bought with that? Did your fridge or your TV even come with the option?

Supportive Bloke

Plus you would have to prove causation and the flaw.

The cost and time spent arguing would be massive.

That approach would just push uk future costs due to risk premium being added to the contract sums.

Jennifer Longman

Excuse me but where has she been in the last few months and what did she do.

Jonathan

Ships always break…the sea breaks them..the Ogin is brutal.

Charles Verrier

The T45 Gym is in a space set aside in the hull for future expansion, and is NEXT to the current Sylver VLS silo. That space is now going to be used for SeaCeptor VLS that will be in addition to the Sylver VLS – Increasing missile capacity from 48 to around 96.

Phillip Johnson

2 separate issues on what is the same basic design within a couple of years of coming into service! Lowest tender I presume?

Jonathan

Ummm the EQ as floated a decade ago and was commissioned 7 years ago…that’s not a couple of years in service.

John

How does a nearly new major warship end up with such an embarrassing failure? What would happen if it had to actually join in with a fight? The designers have created a fiasco.

Robert Blay

Have you taken to these pages every time a Russian warship hasbroken down?? Probably not.

Jennifer Longman

Why would you. Excuse me we are British not Russian

Sean

Worse than that…

List to starboard, too heavy in the water, severe structural weaknesses in the stern requiring a rebuild… Yet HMS Victory proved her worth.

The fiasco is imagining something as complex as a warship can be produced without any niggling issues to be resolved.

Jimbo

You might wat to read up on the Charles De Gaulle carrier

Charles De Gaulle faced difficulties even once the ship was completed. The ship had to be fitted with better radiation shielding after inspectors found higher than expected radioactivity onboard—the ship had been in construction so long that safety standards had changed. Moreover, the ship’s flight deck had to be extended by about fourteen feet to accommodate the Hawkeye. The vessel had originally been designed to launch and recover the Super Étendards Modernisé, the Rafale and the US. Navy’s F/A-18C/D—the requirement to operate the Hawkeye was only added in 1992, which necessitated the refit.

The carrier also faced tremendous problems with its propulsion system initially. The ship had issues with vibration, and indeed during one well-publicized incident, the propellers literally snapped. The problem was traced to faulty manufacturing—there were air pockets in the cast copper-aluminum alloy. Worse, the blueprints for the propellers had been lost in a fire, which meant that the ship had to be refitted with hand-me down screws from Foch and Clemenceau. That cut her speed down from twenty-seven knots to about twenty-four knots—which was unfortunate since she is already considerably slower than her predecessors which steamed at thirty-two knots.

Charles De Gaulle was eventually refitted with new propellers in 2007 during her first refueling. The Charles De Gaulle’s advantage over conventional carriers is that she doesn’t need as much logistical support compared to her predecessors due to her nuclear propulsion. However, the French opted for a reactor that needs to be refueled every seven years. By comparison, an American carrier is only refueled once during its fifty-year lifespan. The refit also added a host of improvements that allowed the French to finally exploit its full potential. But even then, Charles De Gaulle suffered another embarrassing electrical fault in the propulsion system in 2010 that cut her deployment short—literally to one day. 

Supportive Bloke

Oddly timed fire that….just as an investigation was underway…..

“ Worse, the blueprints for the propellers had been lost in a fire, which meant that the ship had to be refitted with hand-me down screws”

Duker

Thanks for that . The French use low enriched uranium LEU – in common with their nuclear power stations- for their subs and CDG.
US and UK use HEU – well over 90%,
The increased number of refuelling’s is just combined with the planned dockyard periods and maybe adds 9-12 months to the 8-10 yr cycle. CDG has had 2 refuelling’s with 2nd combining with MLU

Jonno

Not clever but its got 2 propellors!

Jonathan

Ummm you do realise the QE was floated a decade ago and commissioned 7 years ago…that not new in anyone’s book.

Supportive Bloke

“ Both of these ships have been working so hard to get ready to go.”

An interesting comment suggests both were to deploy.

ATH

QE to the NATO exercise and PW to continue its work up towards becoming the high readiness carrier.

D Hardisty

Don’t know which is worse – a R.N ship that cannot sail or one that does crashes into another one – Well done Navy. The only question is does those poor sailors class it as sea time when they are in port for months on end?

Chris De Pole

Interesting comments on R4 News this morning from Tobias Elwood that flying sorties from Cyprus unsustainable, so points to Carrier needed. He also flagged up growong concern the Type 45’s may be good air defence ships, but have no land attack capability, and that all peer group Navies destroyers are armed with Tomahawk

Supportive Bloke

There are alternatives to TLAM as it is an old system.

There are better missiles on the market these days.

N-a-B

It’s Nice But Tobias FFS.

ATH

I’d be interested to know which “peer group Navies” have ships armed with Tomahawk.
I believe Australia, Japan and The Netherlands have ordered or are thinking of ordering Tomahawk but I don’t think they have it in service.
But it’s Tobias Elwood so I wouldn’t expect him to have properly researched anything he says.

Sean

Tobias ‘rent-a quote’ Elwood. Shame the presenter didn’t ask for figures on how many Tomahawks were on say French, Italian, Spanish, destroyers – the answer is zero.

Jennifer Longman

We are a shambles of a nation with a ship like that at the last minute that can’t sail. Can you imagine that happening in America. No. It’s shameful. Did this happen in the 1st and 2nd World Wars once again no they were always fit to sail at the drop of a hat. It’s a disgrace

ATH

Utter rubbish.

Jennifer Longman

Why

SailorBoy

During WW2 at least one ship was usually ready to sail at the drop of a hat, because probability dictates it. With two that are much larger than anything before and twice the size any working-age engineer in Britain has worked on, “drop of the hat” is only fine if you drop it from the ISS.

Sean

No, you’re a shambles.

“Can you imagine this happening in America?” – Yes, because it does.

“Did this happen in the 1st and 2nd World Wars” – Yes it did.

Just because you use an Anglo-Saxon name don’t think that we all don’t realise English isn’t your first language. So stop using the “we” when talking about the U.K.

Last edited 19 days ago by Sean
Jon

Happens all the time in the US. Throughout most of the last decade they were really struggling to get their on-station percentages up to the 25% target (it dipped nelow 16% availability in 2019). That’s why they need at least 12 carriers, so they can deploy three at once. Now their stats exclude time at sea travelling to and from the theatre of operations, but needing 12 carriers to deploy three should tell you that the UK only having two carriers and expecting to always be able to deploy one is a tough ask, not a disgrace.

I’m aware of at least a couple of times when they’ve deployed a carrier strike group without a carrier, there being no available substitute for a last minute hiccough.

Last edited 19 days ago by Jon
Frazer

I agree, total FUBAR, best is to use them as target practice.
RN has no personnel, no logistics, no ships, no planes, and no replenishment,
Doomed and Rubbish!

No fight tonight but fight next year.

Last edited 18 days ago by Frazer
BigH1979

By the way if anyone doesn’t think these people are trolls please ask yourself why they would sign up to Navy Lookout just to make comments like these. Best ignored.

SmallQ2011

You are talking about yourself, surely.

Charles Verrier

If it’s the same thing PoW experienced, then hopefully caught it before it can do the damage that happened when it failed while under way.

ATH

I believe it’s been officially stated that it’s a different issue to the one PoW suffered.

Charles Verrier

I don’t know how new the photo on this article is, but QE seems to be missing a forward Phalanx.

Paul T

Article says October 2020.

Jonno

QE is due for a refit, just bring it forward.
However there needs to be a drydock nearer than 600 miles away.
Either build one in Portsmouth or refit KGV in Southampton.
Requisition, knock down pump house, fit new pumps, security, New gate.

ATH

Why would you spend hundreds of millions of pounds to save 36 hours sailing time. Organising parts and people will take much much longer than moving the ship.

Backaftie

36 hours is fine, waiting to get in and out of the dock at the 2 points per month its possible however is not. As these ships age a quick docking facility becomes more urgent.

Supportive Bloke

KGB might need a new caisson too…..it was scrapped a while back….a few facilities…..oh and some skilled people. All hard (not impossible) on a Listed structure.

Given the exotic (I agree ridiculous) cost of civils in the UK this would be eye watering expensive.

c h james

These long shafts are always probmatic should have had elec modules. make the vessel go faster and more moveable .

ATH

Except they were found to be inadequately resistant to battle damage. If you look back on this sight you will find a detailed article on all the design iterations the QE class went through to get to the final built version.

AlexS

What is the explanation for this to not have been detected right after PoW issues?

ATH

Maybe they were working fine at the time. Without knowing the details of what is wrong no one can know if this was in any way predictable.

crisswhicker

perhaps we need more carriers, say 3 , 50,000 ton carriers and recruit more sailors
better conditions , housing , better treatment of veteran’s and a 50/% pay rise ,
for all lower military ranks.. just saying like ??

Northshore_Paul

This is the nation that wants to go to war with a superpower, the Russian Federation!! I read recently that Britain has a standing army of 95,000 troops. With so few soldiers what will be the time to total destruction after engaging the Russians? One Day? This brings to mind the Peter Sellars movie, The Mouse that Roared.
The UK needs to be reminded from time to time the Empire is no longer, they are just an insignificant island dependent upon their Big Brother, the former colonies, the USA!

Sean

Russia isn’t a superpower, even Putin isn’t stupid enough to claim that anymore.

No we don’t want to go to war. We didn’t want to against Nazi Germany, but they forced the issue.

Yes Russia would last one day. Because we would be fighting as part of NATO. Unlike Putin, the UK has always known its better to have allies when you fight wars.

Finally, it’s really obvious you’re a Russian troll trying to cause division between the US and UK – that’s never going to work.

Esteban

I just don’t get all the Russian troll paranoia…

Duker

I think its his day job ?

SailorBoy

The superpower that is currently being held to a stalemate on the battlefield by a former breakaway state roughly a quarter of the size? Oh yes, that superpower.

Jonathan

Lots of bizarre comments on this site about how it’s somehow embarrassing or incongruous that this ship has suffered a mechanical issue…lets just be a bit real here..

1) this ship is not new, it’s not a couple of years old it was commissioned 7 years ago…that’s not new.
2) ships are really complex machines that have to work in an environment that subjects them to extreme dynamic forces..the sea is constantly trying to break ships and boats….

To make a statement that it’s somehow embarrassing that a 7 year old ship is suffering mechanical issues is ridiculous..of course it’s suffering mechanical issues, every single ship ever built does..what would have been a problem is if the crew had missed the the issue and the ship ended up without propulsion out to sea…

Jimbo

Good post

Sean

A sensible post amongst the comments from Russian trolls, whinging defeatists, and conspiracy theorists that inhabit the web these days.

Jonathan

Don’t get me wrong I’m happy to do some whinging…as I firmly believe we are heading to a likely major war with a china Russia block and that we should have abandoned the peace dividend 8 years ago and started steadily moving our defence budge from the peace dividend 2% back up to a Cold War 5-6%… I think our government is remiss in that…but ships break down and blaming that on the RN or BAE is just silly.

Jay

The British have always used the United States to do their dirty work. They live like kings off of American tax dollars while working and taxing America to death and they get wars started for their own gain and then back out while sending Americans to die for them.

Steven Alfred Rake

Putin has his mouth pieces on this and many other sites like this one and now I see Trump is getting in on the act.

Sean

Putin mouth-pieces and Trump mouth-pieces are essentially one and the same. The extreme-right in the USA is fed by propaganda from Russian which they naively lap up.

Jay

Not a fan of Russia or Putin or Trump for that matter. Don’t like communism or totalitarianism in any form. Not Russian Communism, not Chinese Communism, not American Communism, not Cuban Communism and definitely not British Communism. Let’s not forget that Karl Marx left his Marx on England and spent a fair amount of time there.
What did Karl Marx do in England?
Marx regarded his studies in economic and social history at the British Museum as his main task. He was busy producing the drafts of his magnum opus and Das Kapital.

Jay

So did Karl Marx teach Communism to the British, or did the British teach Communism to Karl Marx. I suspect the British did the teaching.

Steven Alfred Rake

If it is history you like to talk about how about the largest Nazi party out side of Germany yes you guessed it the good old U S of A. But I thourght this was a site that looks at the RN, I know there is normally only bad news but I bet the USN has its fear sheer of bad news as well.

Jay

I can’t argue with that. Almost all of our Presidents are directly descended from the royal blood lines of England going all the way back 14 generations to Mary Tudor. The Bush boys were both Knighted by your Queen, which is considered an act of treason under our constitution and Prescott Bush was financing both the Nazi’s and the Allies in World War 2. So I wouldn’t argue that point with you for a minute. You are correct.

SailorBoy

First I’ve heard about Britain getting tax money off America and starting wars. Also don’t remember Britain wanting to get involved in Korea. When have we ever asked the US to join a war and they did it? Only when Americans have been attacked have they joined wars.

Jay

Did you ever study the Boston Tea Party, the Federal Reserve or the IRS.

Jonathan

That is so pathetic….it was the US that triggered article 5 and the UK answered its allies call and spent a decade fighting 2 wars just to support the the U.S..the Korean conflict was to support the U.S. via NATO.

Name one war the UK dragged the US into….there is not one…the US fights wars for its own reasons.

WW1 because Germany kept attacking its shipping via unrestricted warfare
WW2 because Japan attacked it

all other wars we joined in support of the US..

As for tax dollars what the f are you talking about the U.S. gives nothing to the UK…

Jay

Your ignorance of history is astounding. Try looking up “The Creature from Jekyll Island” and how America has been financially plundered by the British Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. Documented along with hundreds of other documents.You are correct to say America that gives nothing to the UK. The UK takes it by force.

James

That was 300 years ago. Did you mention your nation started on the backs of others? You know who I refer too.

Jay

1913 on Jekyll Island was not 300 years ago. Are you even old enough to remember when we didn’t have cell phones?

Jonathan

Just brilliant, that book is a highly controversial rabbit hole of conspiracy theories…the fact you have utterly focused on the colonial aspect…which is actually more focused on US colonialism….yes the book it’s talking more about the US not Britain when it focuses on how central banking systems are used as tools of colonial activity…the U.S. was busy building an empire and steeling a continent from the actual Americans…..the actual Americans are the native peoples who had their lands stolen and cultures destroyed not by British colonialism but by US colonialism….as for the rest of his massive rant about a cabal of bankers who were mainly Jewish by the way..stinks very much of the root of a lot of hate….

so yes I have read that book, I agree with his views that the resources of north America was stolen from the people of the North America but that was the native peoples of North America..the vast majority of which were stolen by the US government and citizens who after seeking independence went on one of the most hideous land grabs, destruction of cultures, ethnic cleaning and empire building of the 19c…i completely disagree around his theories of a cabal of mainly jewish banks setting up the federal reserve to feed of the US citizens as all other state banks were set up to do the same ..that’s just hate mungering….I study history I know history and my advice is you need to take a break form the rabbit holes that the internet are sending you down…there are 3 million Chinese people working in political warfare teams trying to get your to feel this way about your own institutions in your own county as well as your allies….because they want to use what you are feeling as a weapon against you..really please step back and look at the wider evidence base. Read some good evidence based text books over this sort of sensationalist fear and hate mungering.

Last edited 19 days ago by Jonathan
Jay

They say the difference between a conspiracy theory and a commonly known fact is now about 2 months and sometimes even less.

James

Just reading up on Black Seminoles, interesting. Excellent race relations policy by Washington DC. Just reading up on the 11 v 11 states issues, when 11 states wanted to continue the ST or S Trade, and 11 didn’t, enlightened approach by half the nation. Ypu study that in school? Just reading up on the first published event of IP theft when Americans stole the plans from England for the first mill in Mass.

What your posts detail and what you pontificate about, well It’s a well known problem in America, the lack of global knowledge, lack of world education, lack of humility, the continuation of mass discrimination. You are a classic example of a lack of deep knowledge.

You should stick to the issues, this is a naval information site. P off mate.

Jay

Yes, King George saw America as a cash cow to be plundered for the crown of England and the original 13 colonies were used for that very purpose. Yes, Indians were killed by the white man in some cases, but Indian tribes were at war with each other at times as well. Some Indians became friends with the colonists and others became enemies. It was a mixed bag. Many of the colonists considered themselves British citizens and that’s why they demanded that there be no taxation without representation which started the war for American independence. There can be no question that Britain began the American colonization in order to extract taxes from its own citizens who fled England in part because of the greed of its ruling class. And it continues that unreasonable taxation without representation to this day through the trickery and corruption of the FED and IRS.

Jonno

Do we have to go back to General Sullivan’s expedition into the Iroquois Federation 1779? People still trying to justify this stuff. We should move on and not look back and get angry with each other after nearly 250 years. Please.

Duker

Taxes were lower in 13 Colonies than they were in Britain

. And yes a major expenditure by Britain was wars against France- who also had colonies in North America and did attack them in the Seven Years War from sea as well as from inland see this War 1754-1763
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War

The fruits of victory by Great Britain in the 7YW was the ceding of the French territory east of the Mississippi to the control of then British Colonies- soon to be independent . Thats what your British taxes were paying for.

1280px-French_and_indian_war_map.svg1
Jonathan

You of course realise that the American colonies paid less tax to the British government than those living in the UK..and almost no one was represented in the 18c as democracy as we know it and universal suffrage did not exist…..the US constitution did not include any right to universal suffrage as written…..no tax without representation was utter tosh….it was one set of ruling elite not happy with their tax burden and decided to take over and decide their own tax burden….the average American had no representation…infact the revolution and constitution gave no rights of suffrage beyond what individual state law decided and they universally decide only white men who owned land could vote.

infact for all of your land of the free..the US did not enshrine universal sufferage for all those over 18 until 1971…where as the UK beat you to it with the representation of the people act 1969…

I find it staggering how many US citizens are unaware of the causal factors of the revolution as well as how profoundly unfree the US has been for most of its history as well as its profoundly imperialistic, expansionist and predatory predilections. All you come out with is the no tax without representation..Boston tea party stuff..which every good historian will tell you was basically propaganda and political warfare…you are all so profoundly unaware of how your country was created through constant war and conflict and the extermination of entire cultures….it saddens me, as to understand yourself you need to understand where you come from and unless you understand the history and drivers of your nation good and bad…you weaken your democracy and are open to attack and influence…you my friend are the dream target for russian and Chinese political warfare and are an example of why china thinks it will win a prolonged war with the U.S.

the fact you think the Fed and IRS works for and fund The British government is really worrying and I honestly ask you to get some outside support and discussion around your views as I believe you are being radicalised.

Last edited 18 days ago by Jonathan
Jay

I think you are the one that is radicalized and in need of help. In America, we don’t now and have never pledged allegiance to a democracy. Democracy is only one step away from communism. We pledge allegiance to the Republic. But that’s just more of your ignorance and Marxism showing. I suppose that is to be expected coming from the younger generation. And your contempt for our founding fathers and their views on government policy is convoluted at best and hostile at worst. You sound like you have no loyalty to any country at all and want a Global world dictator instead.

Jay

You don’t pay very close attention do you! I already stated what I think of Communism. Be it Russian, Chinese, American, Cuban or British Communism. And you didn’t pay much attention to the words in our pledge of allegiance either. Someone brainwashed you to believe that America was supposed to be a Democracy instead of a Republic.

Jonathan

Gosh jay are you actually saying you would willingly sacrifice democracy..that is profoundly worrying…what you are saying is that you would much rather have an authoritarian based republic over a democracy….you miss the fact that what created the strength of the liberal democracies was its citizens belief in the freedom from tyranny that democracy brings….

I don’t have contempt for the U.S. founding fathers…..they were a very clever bunch of people who created a stable set of governance..that was not that bad for the time…but they were of their time..they did not believe in democracy and the right of one person one vote….which is the core principle of both out modern nations.

democracy is not one step away from communism..it’s as far from communism as you get…

communism focuses on government ownership of the systems of production, in which the individual effectively owns nothing..democracies have a principle that the means of production is owned by individuals and that individuals have rights and freedom to create wealth…

I am not a communist Thankyou very much..I consider communism and authoritarian regimes of all types to be a scourge on humanity….I also believe patriotism is about ensuring your nation and its people can be the best they can and live in freedom..from either oppressive communism states or any authoritarian regime including authoritarian republics…and sadly what you seem to miss is that your nations great heritage is based around a democratic republic….you may wish to go back 250 years to when it was simply a republic without democracy …but that is a very minority view…

As for my age you show your assumptions yet again and make yourself look foolish…and finally suggesting I have no loyalty….get a grip man…knowing where your country comes from good and bad..is not disloyal it’s patriotic….we live in democracies and it’s the patriotic duty of a citizen of a democracy to understand it so you knew how and why to cast your vote anyway clearly your view of your nation is yours and if you wish it to become an authoritarian republic that is your view and right..but I pity the population of the U.S. if that view that democracy is somehow wrong becomes dominant….at present your view of democracy being an evil is not normal in your or my nation thank goodness.

Last edited 18 days ago by Jonathan
James

Are you going to address the issue of the S***es? Colonialism is still the explanation for all your ailments?

Jonno

Old stuff dies hard it seems. I once got an earful about the ‘Tories up North’, being the Canadians who stayed away. Best we all stay away from history sometimes.

Jay

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeating its tragic mistakes to their own hurt. I suppose that some think it nice to forget the pain and suffering they they cause to others while claiming that it is just history, even while continuing the plunder.

Peter S

What a stupid and ignorant view of 20th century history. US involvement in WW 1 only began in 1917 after Germany started sinking US ships. In WW2 US involvement began after Japans attack on Pearl Harbour and Hitler in turn declared war on the USA. I can’t think of a single war started by the UK which then ” used” America to do its dirty work. The US were not involved in any of Britain’s wars of the post 1945 decolonization era, though strangely they encouraged and largely financed French efforts to regain Vietnam, a disaster they then inherited.
,

Jay

Oh, then what do you call Afghanistan? Just another British opium war started by the United States?

jolly jack

Don’t be surprised if HMS Somerset doesn’t make the party either

Caspo

Awaiting further details on the rust found. It doesn’t grow overnight, but in a marine environment can certainly come through quickly. Surface rust/putting more details required

Billy Baker

She’s sat in Lyme Bay, waiting for POW to come out, there’s a Tide in Portland too.

Hormblower

Horatio Nelson would die of shame, rather than being killed in combat, to hear of how the once great British Navy has been degraded to such an extent. I guess the WEF has enough naval resources to begin the attack on Russia without another phony ass jump carrier to be involved.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Hornblower

Very sadly: I tend to agree with you….

With regards to today’s very high-profile propulsion problems (i.e. being reported here by NL) on the QE Carrier, it must be pointed out – especially to those whom continue to make excises for incompetent engineering when posting their comments on NL – that the RN, together with the Carrier Alliance, has had over five years (and during that time, many separate attempts) to deal with these serious propulsion issues (on both carriers).

(Important note for all Dartmouth trained naval cadets. The ship’s propeller(s) are the large “spinney around things”. They are always located below the ship’s plimsol line. They are what makes a Grey Funnel Cruise Liner move when you shout Full Ahead Forwards (ie Faf’ing about)) into the bridge telephone……….. (or the ship goes aft if you are on a minesweeper in the Arabian Gulf (sorry: I could not resist that one))

These very serious issues with the QE’s shafts and propellers were first noted during the QE’s maiden voyage: which was extensively broadcast on the BBC back in 2018.

Sadly, this one all comes back to one basic fact, one which has been unchanged since Victorian times = that most of today’s RN senior officers could not find their own way down to the QE’s engine room; let alone understand what really goes on inside it……

………………………………

Then we come onto the rather important matter of the QE’s air-group: or rather, the lack of one…….that one all comes down to MOD, RAF and RN (FAA) allowing the “rather expensive” F35 programme management to keep slipping back on its promised delivery targets = and thus repeatedly missing key in-service dates.

Once again, the root cause is a lack of professional engineering competences – up there at the most-senior officer levels – when running these multi-billion procurement programmes.

………………………….

Next, with regards to news reporting

I will point out that the Daily Telegraph (which is, alternatively, often known in Fleet Street as the Daily Tory-graph) is generally always extremely pro-defence with most of its journalism (Note. Admittedly with pro-army bias).

Therefore the Daily Telegraph newspaper only ever really criticises the UK armed forces when things have gone really, really bad wrong….

However, with regard to news management, one should never under-estimate the truly stunning ability of the current RN leadership to shoot itself in both feet (simultaneously) when it comes to using modern methods of communication (like press releases….)………….

….. therefore = has any member of the RN leadership (and I use that word loosely) noted that there is a pre-election budget coming up in a few weeks time????.

If one wants to be squeezing few extra pieces of silver out from the Treasury = putting forward good news stories this month might be a very good idea….

A very big hint is coming next!
——————————

Just a few weeks ago, all of the national news outlets were all leading with the news that HMS Diamond was in action out in the Red Sea…………….

So, here we are – weeks later – where are the news feeds, photos and videos from HMS Diamond going into action?????

Not a squeak!!!!!!…………..

Has the video-tape of very dramatic missile launches from the closed-up Type 45 bridge – and (obviously) interviews with the battle-hardened matlots – not arrived in Northwood?

(i.e. Is the super 8 movie-film canister being delivered to the UK by homing pigeon?)

What the Navy needs out in the Red Sea today is the modern version of Brian Hanrahan

(Note to all you wet-behind-the-ears youngsters (i.e. all those reading NL who are under the age of fifty-five). These next words, spoken from the deck of HMS Hermes back in 1982, were “probably” the most famous ones ever uttered during over one hundred years of all of the BBC’s broadcasting = “I am not allowed to say how many planes went on the raid; however I counted them all out and I counted them all back in again!“)

The Navy now really needs to get its act together: both with its (very basic) marine engineering and also, especially, on the news management front.

Frankly, some good publicity – broadcast directly from the front line in the Red Sea – will take the heat out of this one….

Irate Taxpayer

Supportive Bloke

To be perfectly honest there will be one team member with a laptop on board who could make a perfectly sensible video with a 4k phone (OK SIM removed for EMR reasons).

But there will have been video sent back from ships CCTV. so it could easily be edited back here.

So I sense a very strange reluctance to show RN fighting as it was told to by its political masters. Who on this deployment I totally agree with.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Supportive Bloke

As you say = a strange reluctance …

Why is one service able to show warfighting videos, and the other is not?

After all, plenty of media coverage both of of RAF Typhoons taking off from Cyprus, and also pictures from the planes themselves of strikes on Houthi targets in Yemen..

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Iseenoships

Nelson must be turning in his grave, another bloody embarrasment for the UK. But I bet the truth is more likely that we cant afford to send her, she doesnt have enough crew, she has only a couple of planes instead of the 20-40 she should have, and no weapons for them.
I blame the government who desided that a catapult would not be required (thus short sightedly forgot other jets could not operate from her, or supply planes etc etc), and who also expected weapons to fit the F35 internal bay which currently dont, who desided against a nuclear power plant for the ship so shortening her range and voyage capability, who gave the ship no defensive or offensive weaponry, so it would always need escorts that we dont have, and also getting rid of harriers which could have offered a gap filler, pilot training or ground attack capability which the F35 does not have (they would have also been cheaper to operate in non contested battle space). In short, those two promising carriers are now nothing more than expensive floating empty hangers, which is a terrible crime. The person’s who signed off on this project should be shot.

Billy Baker

Funny reading just how far off topic these comments have veered.

Funny that the two posters actually commenting on what actually happened as they were actually there, have been deleted.

Funny site.

Grinch

I suspect they are in deep s**t right now.

Billy Baker

Probably but they only really added a bit of detail to the description in this article.

Frank

Engineering incompetence. Merchant ships operate 350 days per year with smaller crews. I’m afraid the RN are poor

Frank

You don’t sort shaft line issues at sea and it’s unlikely that there is an unrelated coupling problem.