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PeterS

France is planning to build 8 SLAMF mother ships similar to the 12 ordered by Netherlands and Belgium. UK has funding for 3, each operating 2 remote systems. Is that it? Or are more planned? It doesn’t seem enough given the number of MCM hulls the RN could deploy even 10 years ago.

John Charles

I assume this ship is the Offshore Support Vessel (OSV) mentioned in the Defence Equipment Plan 2022-2032.
Up to 4 Logistics Support Vessels (LSV) are also mentioned and it appears 3 are already funded.

The LSVs will probably be larger than this ship but the SLAMF mother ships are somewhat smaller.

PeterS

RN has purchased 2 OSVs, one to be converted to a MROSS for cable/ pipeline etc protection and this one to act as an MCM mother ship. ” Logistics support vessel.” is not a very helpful title, could mean anything.
I do wonder why other countries have ordered dedicated mother ships to replace their minehunters and RN has chosen this solution.

DMJ

£40m and in service in a few months might have something to do with it. Given we have a number of systems in service we probably already have some idea what would be required as a support vessel. The Dutch Belgian programme feels a bit ” cart before horse”

RichardIC

You’re right. The Belgians and Dutch are going to look at this and wonder why the hell they’ve gone down such an expensive route. Especially as French industry seems to be the main beneficiary.

PeterS

The 12 ship contract was reported as €2b in 2019. It isn’t clear whether this includes the autonomous drones etc but it looks expensive compared to £40 m for quite a new ship with minimal conversion required.

John Charles

I’m aware of the MROSS purchase but that ship has only ever been referred to as MROSS not an OSV.

The Defence Equipment Plan 2022-2032 specifically mentioned an MCM OSV that will “enable UK offshore operations” and up to 4 MCM LSVs that will “deliver a global MCM effect”. 

I agree LSV is a bit vague but that is probably a good thing at this stage.

Barbara Moore

The LSVs will probably be larger than this ship but the SLAMF mother ships are somewhat smaller.

John Charles

She looks freshly painted, very shipshape. 

Can anyone explain the large blocked up aperture in the stern?

Stephen Doggart

never noticed, but now yev pointed it out, aye it’s a strange one.

DMJ

The article says the large WTW gangway was removed

John Charles

I was referring to the stern of the ship next to the yellow ladder structure. The walk-to-work gangway was above the working deck.

Duker

Yes. It was an above deck telescopic tower and gantry shown in this pic , where the workers would transfer from the sea platform

island-crown-photo-rollsroyce-15284[1].jpg
Last edited 1 year ago by Duker
Joe16

At a guess, the vessel may have been involved in cable lay at some point- so had an opening in the stern level with the working deck so it could be paid out from a reel mounted on deck? I know they normally use dedicated cable lay vessels, but for a smaller job it may have been easier to cut a hole in the steel?

Stephen Doggart

I know it’s silly superstition. I still feel uneasy about renaming a ship.

Ian

Stephen
How about RFA Island Crown ?

donald_of_tokyo

I understand the goodness of the bulwark, and no need for moon pool.

But, why not purchase Topaz Tongaroa’s sister ship, Topaz Tiamat, for logistic commonality? Adding bulwark is easy, and operating two different OSV-type vessel will be a bit more complex than two hulls of the same type. Training commonality might also help to reduce operational burden…

DMJ

Is it available? Web search indicates its on a multi year charter to Reachsea.

donald_of_tokyo

Thanks. I meant, “why not approach the industries with a requirement of TWO identical ship, from the beginning”. I could be “they did, but could not find any candidates”, I agree. But, did they tried?

Note New Zealand has a similar sized ship, HMNZS Manawabui, with moon-pool. Looks like there are always some vessels in the market.

DMJ

With that criteria you would have created a sellers market and
most likely pushed the price up!

donald_of_tokyo

And it must be compared with the logistic cost increase. If it is cheaper even including it, it can be a good choice. I just want to know if it is so, or not.

John Charles

Another vessel, Normand Jarl, was recently sold outside the offshore industry. It will be interesting to see where she ends up.

Simon m

I maybe just being stupid but why is it not being painted grey? & are weapons to be fitted? Or are they simply to be used in safe areas & peacetime? If so what supports MCM during a conflict? Is this interim. Or so stand off not an issue?
At least MCMVs had 30mm, small calibre weapons & possibly Starstreak added & being much smaller this might have been sufficient.
These to me look like 30mm automatic guns minimum & really CIWS?

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon m
Jon

Yes, the Association of Grey Paint Manufacturers (AGPM) demand to know: why not grey?

The UK doesn’t do mine laying. The ship won’t attack anything and will only defuse situations and help save lives. So why paint it like a warship?

Simon m

Generally as part of an organisation you adopt the uniform? Are the RFA on the vessel going to be wearing jeans and t-shirts?
Only protector due to being in a cold environment isn’t grey & ro ros don’t count as not RFA.
If you plan to take part in an amphibious operation or even fake one then generally you may need to clear minefields to allow LCUs, LCVPs as well as LPDs to conduct operations without being blown up. Several ships were damaged by mines in GW1
As the autonomous mine system is replacing traditional MCMVs which the navy just for a laugh painted grey. My point was that this doesn’t actually seem to replace the capability.
So what provides mine warfare or counter warfare in a war?

NigelS

Actually France is planning to purchase 6 motherships and to purchase 8 unmanned mission systems.

The stated UK position appears to be 4 motherships (this purchase + 3 others) and 6 unmanned mission systems.

DMJ

It’s 6 unmanned units to be purchased as part of block 2 , we already have 3 units, possibly 4 based at Faslane

John Charles

A bit of web searching suggests Project WILTON operates the following:

2014 RNMB Hazard 11m*
(Original crewed trials vessel with a fully enclosed wheel house)

2018 RNMB Hussar 11m USV
(First uncrewed system including 3 towed Coil Auxiliary Boats)

2020 RNMB Harrier 11m USV

2020 RNMB Hebe 15m USV
(Larger vessel with on-board command and control facilities)

2020 RNMB Halcyon 11m USV
(This is a different vessel to the Thales/L3Harris USV Demonstrator Halcyon)

2022 RNMB Hydra 11m USV

These are all ATLAS Elektronik Remote Combined Influence Minesweeping Systems (ARCIMS)

* Unsure if RNMB Hazard has now been updated for uncrewed operation.

R Coldsworth

Couldn’t the former RFA Diligence have done the job?

DMJ

Previously discussed on this forum. It may look similar but was fitted for a different task and is over 40 years old.

Joe16

Looks like a tidy ship. Also, as a Norwegian built ship, likely to have a sauna on board! Will be welcome after clearing the approaches to Faslane for 12 hours.

Duker

Thats an inshore vessels job. This will likely be for open ocean areas where fibre optic cables are laid , roughly to the depth subs can reach

Joe16

From the article “Due to enter service in the spring, she will be based at Faslane, co-located with the First Mine Countermeasures Squadron (MCM1) which already operates autonomous boats under Project Wilton.” I assumed that meant it’d be the comand vessel for the MCM teams at Faslane, but maybe I misunderstood- could be covering our contirbution to wider mine disposal across the North Atlantic?
Either way, a sauna will be well appreciated!

Angus

Different role, this has the deck space for the new MCM systems which may be double on this vessels, the size of the LSV’s talked about is currently unknown but may be smaller but with similar deck space.

DaSaint

Add a platform forward for a Phalanx CIWS or a DS30M Mark 2 system and she’s all set!

Will

Also a couple of miniguns on each beam.

Challenger

The concern was always the prospect of binning the Hunt’s and Sandown’s too quickly without any direct replacements.

A mix of 4-5 mother-ships bought off the shelf and converted as well as the flexibility of being able to deploy autonomous systems directly from land or via other surface vessels won’t be a terrible outcome.

Duker

Flavour of the month for say 5-8 years, become a tethered goat for cost cutters to ‘find’ and then listed for disposal

Ian

Why would we bother to design and build new mother ships…. Just buy second hand like these…… if we start designing new ships it would start getting resigned take years and end up like the Ajax fiasco…..

Angus

The MCM kit only needs a platform that can take the kit and get it into the area of operations and a Ship is better able to provide for the shipmates doing the job which is far better than trying to do it from shore too. Yes we will purchase second hand and provide the role far quicker and cheaper for the tax payer. I’m sure they will be able to clear the way as required better all round. MCM vessels are certainly not where you want to live for a long time, limited space.

John Charles

Interesting, do you expect the proposed MCM Logistics Support Vessels to also be second hand purchases?  

Challenger

There’s been no indication of any design work for bespoke MCM mother-ships and little capacity in the UK shipbuilding industry right now to construct any. So yeah almost certainly second hand commercial vessels given minimal conversions.

Angus

Yes, but not very old (3 – 4 years max) and similar to those that support the rigs in the North Sea. They are there to support the manpower for the MCM teams and transport the kit. All far easiler with a ship that can look after 50 – 100 souls than setting up tents or seeking B&B ashore and can move the full kit in one go.

KevinR

What are we looking at as far as crewing is concerned? How many RFA and how many Royal Navy?

PeterS

The earlier article covering this ship and the similar sized MROSS purchase said the latter would have a RFA crew of 26 and up to 60 RN personnel.

KevinR

I’m guessing the RN crews will come from decommissioned MCMs, but I wonder where the RFA crews will come from

Bloke down the pub

Will also come in handy when deploying the submarine rescue unit,

Duker

Yes. Its more than a single rescue ‘ submersible’
https://www.navylookout.com/submarine-rescue-service-for-the-royal-navy/

Although UK designated vessel currently is Serco SD Northern River

X

Interesting. We need 7 more with at least two systems at least per hull. As this one is going to spend its time ‘defending’ (good grief) Faslane (Lord help us) perhaps this would be an opportunity for another dazzle camouflage paint job? Some nice earth tones or perhaps some purple in the scheme?

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Jeff Grandfield

What are the big yellow ladders and associated large pipes for.? Asking as an interested amateur