Subscribe
Notify of
guest

51 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
OkamsRazor

Great article, a few typo’s, but an excellent overview of where we are. The only problem I have with this type of analysis is “context”. How do we compare with other operators?

Bloke down the pub

The Dutch are buying ots offshore supply vessels, probably from Damen like PTBK, and putting containerised systems onboard to supplement the capacity of their larger vessels. Either with SAMs to increase the load for air defence or with a towed array sonar like Geospectrum’s TRAPS for ASW. Initially to be lean crewed but with option for autonomous.
Dutch Navy looks to fit air defence payload to ‘civil’ ships – Naval Technology (naval-technology.com)

Bloke down the pub

I think the Dutch will be going for the Damen 5009 rather than the 4008 like PTBK.

Andrew Harris

I have a feeling she has been sat in Portsmouth since her sea trials over a year ago, maybe someone can say what she has been doing ?

Random Commentator

She’s been very active – not sure what she’s doing but she’s putting to sea regularly.

Andrew Harris

Oh, I never spot her on any of the tracking sites, just seems to be in port but thanks, it’s good to hear she is being used. I just checked and she is currently moored off Southsea Castle, so she’s definitely out. Ta.

ATH

Remember the name associated with RN AIS returns is not always correct. I don’t know if this would apply to PB but it’s not uncommon for a name to appear in say the Red Sea of a ship than can be seen on harbour cam in Portsmouth.

Andrew Harris

Yes there is that I suppose, I often look and see these false labels and normally no ships are visible in Portsmouth unless they are new arrivals, HMS Diamond was only visible a short while. Today HMS Iron Duke is shown alongside but no others.

Sophia

Our roomate’s mom makes $72 an hour at home, she has been unemployed for two months and last month her check was $21204 just working at home two hours per day. Go to this link
HERE ➜➜➜➜➜ See domain name in pic

Sean

Moderator/ Admin please delete this scam post.

Kelvin

Yes also this post from Sean,

Whale Island Zookeeper

Giraffe X1 is an interesting piece of kit.

SailorBoy

I think we should stick it on absolutely everything as the baseline “Radar that can do fire control”
That means OPVs, Bays and mine hunters for the navy, and AA vehicles for the Army.
The package is ridiculously small, it’s been trialled from the back of a pickup truck, and it sounds good enough to fire CAMM at a push.

Supportive Bloke

Its big brother controls Sky Sabre so it is likely the same software package in the middle is already integrated.

If that is the case then it would allow Sea Ceptor to fitted to a wide range of ships maybe in the containerised variant we gave all talked about for a while.

That would be a massive step change in self defence for the fleet.

Mind you the manufacturers have talked about it for a while too so not total fantasy stuff!

Whale Island Zookeeper

Any big ship the MoD builds should be FFBNW Sea Ceptor at least.

SailorBoy

Over on UKDJ I suggested that we use Giraffe X1, CAMM and Boxer to produce a Pantsir type all in one air defence system.
That has less relevance on this site, but I think the Visby class use a Giraffe radar and are getting CAMM so the principle is sound navally.
All of our new ships should at least have the CMS and sensors like this one to be able to carry a PODded CAMM VLS.
It amazes me that such a useful capability can be miniaturised that far. It goes against the whole SPY6 thing of just adding more and more capability to the same size to make something that is, as far as I can tell, unique.
I wonder what the cutting edge will be by the time I start working on things like this.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Yes. I agree totally. We need to spread sensors and weapons across everything we have that floats.

I think the new solid supply ships should carry SeaCeptor or FFBNW.

SailorBoy

Don’t they have spaces on the superstructure for PODS?
If not, that should be a requirement in future so that a CAMM POD can be developed that adds self defence to just about anything.
I have always liked the concept of the Dutch Holland class OPVs. They have powerful sensors for intelligence gathering but only moderate armament that can be scaled up.
Lots of large boat bays and a helicopter, ideal for the Caribbean or the Pacific.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I don’t know where the design is now. I am sure there would be spare volume on such a big ship.

SailorBoy

From my memory of the general design layout I’d probably stick the missiles up near the bow where the Phalanx is.
It’s the least congested part of the ship and there isn’t as much to get damaged as around the top of the superstructure or the RAS rigs.

Whale Island Zookeeper

There must be somewhere I am sure.

Andrew Harris

I’m not really ofay with this sort of tech but I had a little Google search and it seems to be a big success, even the LCS has a Sea Giraffe system.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Good piece of kit. Well priced. Well featured. Etc.

Whale Island Zookeeper

A Spanish Meteoro class in the background I think. Another design that shows that the Rivers though solid aren’t the best package.

comment image

Last edited 6 months ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
Andrew Harris

That’s a good spot ! I was looking at the headline pic but couldn’t even begin to put a name to it. They are pretty good spec on paper but I do like the River B2’s as they have potential. The 76mm gun would be nice though.

Hugo

What would a 76 help it do tho?

Andrew Harris

Morning, to be honest it’s a difficult question to answer, without going into fantasy scenarios but my guess is it would provide defensive and offensive firepower over and above the 30mm, hence why the Spanish (and Italians) have decided to fit one in addition to the two 25mm mounts.
What are your thoughts tho as you seem to doubt the 76 would help ?

Hugo

Well least in my opinion it wouldn’t help them deploy to anywhere else than they already do, as you really need missile protection to deploy to an area like the Red sea, as the Rivers seem to be comfortable travelling everywhere else, even off the coast of North Korea.

It would be beneficial to have a larg3r gun system to provide protection in case of an unexpected attack, but if were talking about budget vessels like the Rivers that seems like an unlikely addition.

Though now the T31 is bringing 2 medium gun types into service I at least hope they’ll be more common on future platforms.

Andrew Harris

Yes, I don’t disagree with any of that, I suppose it comes down to the difference between peace and hostility, i’d not really expect these R2’s to be anywhere near the danger zones but again, it’s just all fantasy.

AlexS

What would 76 help?
Fighting drones at 6-8km from ship. If with Dart rounds it coud destroy SSM’s fired from an Houthi kind of group.
If want to hit the Houthi launcher send in 76mm vulcano rounds.

Certainly better capability than the River.

AlexS

Comandanti class, NH-90 capable telescopic hangar.

tbZwhPh
Whale Island Zookeeper
Hugo

They would never deploy a ship that lack basic missile defenses to deal with a situation like the Red sea.
The only cases where those capabilities would be applicable was if the ship was attacked by surprise in a seemingly non combat area.

Jonno

I think the Rivers have some really good points which are demonstrated by their self sufficiency and range enabling them to roam the Indo-Pac. In those vast oceanic scenarios a small helicopter has little relevance and can be replaced by a capable drone or two.
I do think we should be working on a River 3 which can benefit from our remarkable achievements with the River 2s to replace the early Rivers. Another 5 would be good.

Andrew Harris

Good shout, it would give us presence in peacetime which helps to build international relationships without the intimidation factor.

DaSaint

A helo has so much more flexibility, however. I would always pair a helo (which can carry 5-8 people) with a drone or two, depending on type.

Andrew Harris

The River batch 2’s can carry Merlin and a couple of other small drones already though. Merlin is a very capable aircraft to have.

Whale Island Zookeeper

They have a flight deck. You wouldn’t, you couldn’t live without a hangar.

Andrew Harris

Indeed that is correct about the hanger but I just answered DeSaint’s comment to confirm they are designed to carry both merlin and smaller drones.
Not sure but I think early Frigates had no hangers for Wasp and later Lynx ?

Whale Island Zookeeper

Yes early ships carried Lynx and before that Wasp.

Whale Island Zookeeper

comment image

Andrew Harris

Yes and without hangers, just like the R2’s. It must have been pretty difficult without them in adverse weather and Arctic conditions.

Whale Island Zookeeper

You are in adverse conditions just being at sea.

Whale Island Zookeeper

They do have greater endurance but within bounds the BAM’s are just as ‘self sufficient’.

Just because you have a hangar you don’t necessarily always have to put a hangar into it. Do the RIver B2 have a drone hangar? Drones come n all sizes. Having a large covered space next to the flight deck is useful on its own.

The BAM is a cleaner deign. Look for example how the davits and so the ships boats are protected within the ships’ superstructure both from the sea and weather but radar too.

There are other designs in the same ‘weight class’ that are better packages too. I hear what you are saying but you haven’t really made a case for B2 River being better than BAM. You have just confirmed what I said that they are capable ships but not really the best.

If I were designing a ship to roam about the Indo-Pacific region it would be bigger than a River B2. I would say the smallest you would want is about 1000 tonnes larger. Something like say the Dutch Holland class. But really for those distances you need a proper ship.

comment image

Last edited 6 months ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
Jon

It’s a compromise for a multi-role ship. The extra speed and endurance of the Rivers are good for anti-smuggling work. Something like the new Damen multi-purpose through deck would be far better for HADR at the same sort of price and with good duration, but too slow for some of the patrol duties. The B2s have a different balance of roles in Asia Pacific than in the Falklands or the West Indies. Nevertheless we need a single class to cover them. It’s difficult to say there is a single best.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Anti-smuggling work is best reserved for RIBs and helicopters. The mother ship having high endurance is important.

Something like the Fassmer 80m OPV which has 3 RIBs (2 x 7.5m RIB´s / 1x 11m Interceptor) plus aviation facilities seems to me to be the best package at the moment.

comment image.webp

Duker

1000 tons larger IS the Spanish meteoro class

Duker

Spanish Meteoro class is 2800 tonnes. About the size of the early leanders !
94m length 14.2m beam

Thats a 1000 tonnes more than a B1 River

RealityJack

All old news. Until regulators approve the RN is battling against the tide constantly!

Last edited 6 months ago by RealityJack
Whale Island Zookeeper

I have been thinking about previous trial ships like the good old Newton.

comment image