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Oliver Grundy

Im assuming Dauntless is doing this patrol in the Caribbean and work in Columbia to test out its new engines?

Jon

That seems very likely although I haven’t heard anyone say so officially. It’s ostensibly in the area to help cover North Atlantic tasking, including the Caribbean hurricane season, with HMS Medway temporarily down in the Falklands. It’ll join HMS Prince of Wales this autumn for Westlant ’23.

Arthur H

It would be a great test.

Arthur H

Fantastic set of pictures.

pompeyblokeinoxford

Was there not mention of equipping the wildcat with a dipping sonar?

Supportive Bloke

Nope – it doesn’t have the endurance.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

comment image

Supportive Bloke

Sure their two do have dipping sonar as everyone keeps saying.

But a light/medium cab can’t carry all the rest of the kit that is needed to make it a full ASW platform.

T45 is big so there is no problem with having a couple of drones on board for dropping sonar buoys or even carting a heavy torpedo. I’m pretty sure we will see commercial drones with dipping sonar before long. They won’t be electric but will be fuelled for the endurance. It would be ideal if you could have several dipping sonar drones then you really could build an ASW picture very quickly.

To a certain extend you might be better off doing passive ASW from the drones as hull noise is then not an issue at all. If you can have a persistent drone presence then that would seem to be an ideal solution.

As I am not sure how quietable the T45’s really are as they were never designed quiet. That said the replacement DG’s *could* be deadened and rafted but that is only a part of the quieting process and that involves all of the pumps, valves, every really.

Arthur H

To be honest, I struggled with your first sentence, it got more confusing after that. Wildcats are not designed for ASW work, T45’s can carry Merlin’s for that. T45’s are not designed for ASW work either. Do you play the air guitar on a tennis racquet per chance ?

Supportive Bloke

There are 2 No examples that were sold to Malaysia (?) with dipping sonar. SK reportedly had enabling work for dipping sonar done too.

I agree Wildcats are not ASW assets.

I agree that T45 can carry Merlins – however, there are not enough Merlin’s to go round.

So ‘something else’ is the likely solution. Drones are the buzzword du jour…..

The Whale Island Zookeeper

I agree Wildcats are not ASW assets.

I agree that T45 can carry Merlins – however, there are not enough Merlin’s to go round.

If a ship has ASW capability then the Wildcat carry torpedoes to the contact.
comment image?itok=abjak6ZV

And if T45 doesn’t have functioning sonar how is Merlin a substitute? Do you send the cab up every so often for a look around in the hopes you strike lucky? Trail a fuel hose over the stern so the Merlin can stay aloft as the long as the pilot stays awake?

Duker

Markings say its ROK Navy
On 15 January 2013, South Korea’s Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) announced the selection of the AW159 to fulfill a requirement of the Republic of Korea Navy for a maritime helicopter, winning out against the MH-60R Seahawk. The batch of eight aircraft were chosen to perform search-and-rescue missions, anti-submarine warfare and surveillance.
Seems it can carry a torpedo as well. . …No endurance ?

AW159-Wildcat-ROKN-03[1].jpg
Gunbuster

Lynx/Wildcat is mostly optional extras.
You can fit all the optional extras you want at the expense of range/endurance and capability.

With the extended range tank fitted in the cabin you cannot do SAR.
2 x 300Kg Torps one on each side means less range because you cannot carry a full load of fuel.
ASM fits such as Skua (Back in the day!) restricted cabin access and the ability to carry torpedo’s.
Doing boarding ops meant stripping out the cabin, sitting on the floor (no seats!) and removing the weapon carriers so you could rope out( That was fun)

In short you balance taskings dependent on the current threat .

Supportive Bloke

Exactly what I was trying and clearly failing to express.

Basically it isn’t a medium/heavy cab like Merlin so it is more limited in range/lift/options

The Whale Island Zookeeper

You said…

I agree Wildcats are not ASW assets.

Wildcat is more than adequate for ASW work. It is obvious that it smaller than Merlin. Lynx its predecessor was the back bone of the RN’s escort ship flights.

Gunbuster

????????

Duker

No one is going to to SAR with a 12 in torpedo attached. But remember its primary mission is as the americans phrase it ‘warfighting’

Gunbuster

No, they won’t.
However, the internal black boxes for the torpedo may need to be removed, the weapon carriers certainly, and if the winch has been removed it needs refitting inside the cab. Cabin passenger seats out to increase space for a stretcher.

As I said it’s all optional extras

ATH

It may or may not be relevant that at about the same time the U.K. was buying Tide class tankers from South Korea.
It definitely true that in 2020 when South Korea needed more ASW helicopters they bought the MH-60R rather than additional Wildcats. Hardly a ringing endorsement!

The Whale Island Zookeeper

The Wildcat fly from the 2200 tonne Inchon class. The Wildcat is shorter and lighter than Seahawk.

Duker

Ha!
The mission changed because the vessel did
this is ROKS Marado last year It has both types but the Wildcat is more suitable for smaller escorts

62d995de0c98f500195ee509[1].jpg
Last edited 8 months ago by Duker
The Whale Island Zookeeper

I am not sure what you mean by ‘full kit’?

If Wildcat isn’t big enough how big are your drones?

T45’s weren’t designed to be quiet?

Duker

Doesnt that mean ‘ultra quiet for a towed array/VDS sonar

Gunbuster

Whilst being quiet helps if you are doing tail ops, its less important (but still a nice to have) when active especially when using a modern set with better algorithms and detection capabilities.
T22 and T42 where hardly quiet but did OK on the active sets. T22 less so when deploying a tail due to machinery and especially CPP props.
HVME helps as it allows you to identify any problem kit onboard that is creating a high noise/vibration and thus allows you to correct it. It’s an often-ignored capability that is massively important for RN FF/DD units.

All engines, pumps etc are on Shock mounts anyway that help to go some way in isolating equipment from the hull. If you want it really quiet the shock mounts are bolted to a raft that is, then shock/vibration mounted onto the hull (double isolation). However, it costs a lot to do that and it’s not just the mounts and rafts. Flexi hoses and connectors are required to isolate fixed pipework from the hull onto the equipment and the raft. Constant monitoring of equipment for noise shorts is essential. The trivial things count. Using small wooden wedges on hatch open holdback stops the hatches rattling in the stowage and is a good example of this.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Thank you.

1) One of the design drivers for T45 was that it was to be quieter than T42 which as you quite correctly say were hardly quiet.
1a) Noisy T42s did quite well in ASW exercises back in the day. They even carried STWS.
1b) The RN wanted a T42 replacement not a specialised aerospace defence ship. I will say it again because it seems to sail over the heads of those who come here, ALL ESCORTS LEANDER AND AFTER WERE DESIGNED AS GENERAL PURPOSE ESCORTS.
1c) The rhubarb here spoken about T45 being a noisy destroyer and so not an ASW ship just makes me shake my head.
1d) And further to your comment below MFS7000 is crap for a unit with the average cost of £1 billion per copy. Probably the reason why it is so easy to gap is that Their Lordships no manning the system is worthless when we are not at war.
1e) Fitting a decent ASW sensor is the norm not the exception.

2) T45 is an IEP hull. One of the advantages of IEP is that as a system it is inherently quiet due to the prime movers being separated in mechanical terms from the propellers. How T45 thus turned out to be so noisy is a mystery for the ages.

3) It was a wonderful precise. I am sure hope somebody browsing here finds it useful. I have known all that for over 30 years.

Gunbuster

I had time on various RN FF/DDs from a few weeks on Leanders and DLG to full drafts on T42, T22s, T23s and LPD. You could also add in some time on MCMV and PCs

Agree with all the above. And I have also known it for years.

Try this, I was WEORM’ing on an LPD that somehow ended up being ASW Commander and we had nothing more than the standard pussers echo sounder and bottom scan sonar onboard. It did have outstanding data links and comms and a huffing big flightdeck to refuel dippers( From an RFA!) be it by RRRF or HIFR. We where mistaken by the sub for a car ferry not just because of the noise but also deceptive lighting. Anything can do Awfully Slow Warfare because its a team game using all assets available to you contributing to a successful outcome.
Doing it as a singleton will, in a shooting war, get you sunk.

Airborne

I love the knowledge and the dits mate, I learn soooooo much! This is where experience counts and is good to see and hear! Anyway I do pop over on this site occasionally as I want to learn and improve my knowledge!

AlexS

Lynx had a sonar and torpedoes, SH-2 Seasprite had sonobuoys and torpedoes, AB 212 had sonar and torpedoes. Portuguese, Korean, Philiphines Wildcat have sonar and torpedoes.

Why people have the huge to transform the Royal Navy current policy as the only valid narrative?

Never saw a Merlin in a Type 45.

Duker

Who used the Lynx with a dipping sonar ? Cant find any mention the RN HAS.2 or 3 did ?

Gunbuster

Lynx did have a MAD Bird at one point…

Duker

For the French only its seems
This image shows the housing which supports the cable. Seems it was only early models as others dont have the housing
https://www.seaforces.org/marint/French-Navy/AVIATION/Lynx-Mk2-FN.htm

Lynx-Mk-2FN-09[1].jpg
The Whale Island Zookeeper

If the escort doesn’t have a decent ASW set there is little point in the helicopter having a dipping sonar. T45 doesn’t really have ASW sonar. And perhaps sailed without personnel to man it too.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

The Panther is a pretty cab.

They don’t look short of rations.

Spud114

Great set of images and the view from the bridge shows the cooks are doing a great job!

Duker

Not at sea that much it seems . Its more likely fast food back at home

Jon

Question for anyone who knows: the article claims “the rather basic MFS-7000 bow-mounted sonar is the only ASW sensor”, but I’ve read in other articles that the Type 45s hull-mounted sonars aren’t in use. Are they or aren’t they? Or does it depend on the deployment?

Deep32

Hi Jon, the last I heard about 18 months or so ago is that all the sonar rates were removed from the T45’s to help man the ASW T23’s.
T45’s obviously still have the sonar fitted, but no people to operate it. All to do with the ongoing RN manpower shortage. Not sure if any T,45’s are back upto speed with sonar rates, it is possible that one or two might be back to proper manning so to speak.

Gunbuster

An RNTM or DIN, cannot remember which, came out putting the sets into hibernation. (It had also happened for a short time in on some T23s for the active sets years before).
It was driven by the units tasking. If you are not scheduled to do ASW tasking the capability was temporarily gapped. Fleet HQ know what each ship is operationally capable of and allocates tasking accordingly.
To reactivate the capability would need the set turning back on, setting to work and some TAS apes to man it. It would take around a couple of weeks max.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

MFS-7000 is based upon a MOAS set sold to the Brazilian navy. It is little more than a parking sensor. Originally they were to carry the Thales UMS 4110 CL sonar same as the Horizons. Poor choice considering the cost as a percentage of the whole ship.

Duker

Some parking sensor , 5 tonnes weight
Range scale 2 – 72 Kyds

https://www.ultra.group/media/2427/ultra-sea-searcher-july-2021.pdf

The Whale Island Zookeeper

T45 displaces 8,500 tonnes. So 5 tonnes is 0.0588235294117647% of the total displacement,

Duker

Isnt that the same type as fitted to hull of T23 ?
Anyway modern electronics and all that stuff dont need a heavy transducers or computer racks
The range is more interesting even if the max might be a bit of puffery