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Mousekid

Reading this took me right back to HMS Iron Duke — good old Dukey, where the biggest underwater threat was a rogue trolley off Portsmouth pier. These days? It’s all XLUUVs, sneaky midget subs, and tin fish creeping through the kelp with bad intentions.

The article paints it plain: seabed warfare’s gone full cloak-and-dagger. Our critical infrastructure’s as exposed as a streaker at Trafalgar Night, and the baddies aren’t rocking up in frigates — they’re coming in low, slow, and silent, like trouble with flippers.

The answer? A picket line of grumpy little USVs bristling with sonar and sass. Think Terrier with a dipping array. Give them loudhailers, give them IDS, and let them bark at anything that moves. No tea breaks, no bunk space — just patrol, detect, deter, repeat.

Bottom line: If we don’t harden up and flood the littorals with bots and brains, we’ll be left clutching a cut cable and wondering why Netflix won’t load.

leh

This guy’s contributions are the best thing these comments have produced in a while.

Mike

Brilliant post

Tim B

Yep, it was great, wasn’t it? ‘Rogue trolley’! Ha-ha.

Pete Bleakley

Jokes with jags – a bit like Labour Party politicians. These however, I like.

Duker

14 years of conservatives and you are still in their corner?? The damage done to the RN over that time is immense

DJE

One subject this piece does highlight, is the madness in placing so much of our critical infrastructure off-shore in vulnerable positions that are open and susceptible to sabotage.

Last edited 18 days ago by DJE
Sean

Off-shore tends to be the best place for sub-sea cabling… 🤷🏻‍♂️

OkamsRazor

😳

Nig e

I belive the Americans had a underwater listening system called SOSUS? covering Atlantic & Pacific,does it still work? And can it detect this undersea problem?

Russ

Still there but called IUSS (Integrated Undersea Surveillance System) now been updated a few times since being SOSUS.

Nig e

Good info,I did wonder if we could update/modify it to operate in North sea/ Baltic to listen to any undersea operations?

DJE

Perhaps if more of our energy generation was on-shore, that wouldn’t be so much of a problem.

Little Froggy

DJE
Right.
It’s the dream of Elon M..k: the end of fibercommunication, because everybody is frightening and chose to go to Starlink.
Of course, it doesn’t still work for oil pipelines.
And Deep Space isn’t safe, a thing wellknown after viewing “Aliens”.

DJE

Hardlines will remain one of the most secure forms of communication, and seabed telecommunication lines and oil lines will remain vital for decades. Having so much energy generation off-shore in the form of windfarms is an unnecessary and insecure form of national infrastructure when we could have onshore power stations such as coal, gas or nuclear.

Graham

Quite agree with you.

Bloke down the pub
Robert

Would be nice to see a similar article on developing offensive capabilities.

David MacDonald

Surveillance, monitoring, detection are all vital. However, ultimately, we also require things are able to go “bang” and blow hostile intruders out of the water. To my simple mind we have too few of these.

Yabool
martin

If you want to start an all out war, for a replaceable cable. you also have the increased risk of destroying an innocent vehicle.

Duker

The daily papers froth at the mouth over undersea infrastructure so “announcements” are made by the pollies.
Meanwhile netzero is undermining the power grid from within as it try’s to rewrite the principles of high voltage electrical engineering.

Graham

Oh yes.

David MacDonald

You fail to understand that, in addition to the fibre optic communications cables, the majority of gas and oil supplies comes to the UK through undersea pipelines and a significant fraction (too much, in my opinion) of our electricity supply is imported via the cross channel links. If these were cut our country would suffer near total collapse in days, perhaps even hours. So, in extremis, we should be prepared to defend these with “things that go bang” if we have to.

Last edited 17 days ago by David MacDonald
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

David MacDonald

The real situation with Uk electicity supply is worse than you think…….

This was all over the news broadcasts and news headlines last month: when two ships collided, big time, just off the Humber estuary

Cargo ship captain arrested over collision in North Sea, owner tells BBC – BBC NewsL

  • Let me see if you can guess how this collision out at sea affected the UK’s electricity supply???

Regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Little Froggy

If I remember well what was said, this captain was Russian and he was fleeing when arresred.
And by chance, very few hours after this “incident”, D. T. decided to reopen the flow of ammos to Ukrain.

Duker

Farcical conspiracy theory.
The only deliberate infrastructure sabotage was done by Ukraine Defence Intelligence, GUR for the Nordstream – according to the germans.
Collisions are negligence

Little Froggy

Duker
Nordstream isn’t my point.

And think to all the collisions where USN vessels were collided by big commercial ships from various countries, these last years, but often with a Chinese captain. And this time, the captain of the “attacker” was Russian. No “farcical conspiracy”. Just facts.

Either the USN is in big trouble with its Skippers, either I’m conspirationist and this is a “grey zone war”.

And remember the Baltimore bridge, the first incredible accident of this kind in the world’s history.

Of course it’s not a “deliberate infrastructure sabotage”.
Because if it were, do you imagine the USA recognizing it?

David MacDonald

It didn’t.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

David MacDonald

I am afraid to say the correct answer to my pub quiz question:

“how did the two ships colliding affect the UK’s energyu supply?”

IS

  • “Oh yes it did” and “far more than you may think”

What happened was as follows:

  1. the two ships collided (due to Ruasan skipper being “asleep on the job” or “pi**ed as a newt”)
  2. one ship catches fire
  3. also a very big pollution spill
  4. Therefore the MCA immediately declared a five mile exclusion zone around the collision site,
  5. Which closes off all shipping access into the Humber Estuary
  6. ……this immediately closes the huge port of Immingham
  7. …Through which most biomass needed to power the UK’s largest single generating sation comes into port to unload
  8. Thus two fully loaded biomass ship’s are stuck offshore for three days – simply unable to unload
  9. and also, immeduitely aferwards, thus those ships were unable to return to the southern USA to collect their next cargo,

Thus severely depleting on-site supplies of biomass available at the UK’s largest single power station

On this occasion: it was warm weather….

……so all other uk power stations were not all operating at 100% of capacity (which can often happen in Feb during very cold spells) – and thus could make up the shortfall..

…….so, on this occasion, we were lucky…

  • When it comes to dealing with CNI (Critical National Infrastructure), the one key thing you always need is resilence

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Biomass like say coal isnt a ‘just in time’ delivery to a large power station.
To give its real name ‘wood chips’ rather than trendy biomass, is delivered in 65,000 ton bulk carriers. Id be surprised if they had more than 1 or 2 of these per month

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Duker

Wrong

Biomass definitely is a “just time time” delivery to the power staion

…. and thus with a surprisingly limited volume of storaage for biomass on site

The days of having a million tons of coal stockpiled at a power staion are ancient history

You are completely underestaimatying the number off ships required

One of the “interesting side effcts of decarboaisation is

  • = reduced resilence

Peter Irate Txapayer

David MacDonald

The UK’s Biomass generation increased steadily from 1.15 GW at 0001 on 10 March to 3.05 GW at 2359 on 15 March 2025. I think that the Drax woodchip burning plant is a flawed concept, from both and environmental and engineering point of view but its operation was not impaired as you suggest.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

David

I said in my original post that – simply because of the warm weather – that on this occasion the shipping issues did not affect generation capacity / capabilities etc ( ie your figures are correct)

  • However, I stand by all of my earlier comments

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Whale Island Zookeeper

There is too much too hidden to seriously think it can be protected. Alternatives on land and at sea are needed so we can fix the problem off shore. That is not to say we don’t need seabed engineering capabilities or say ROV’s mounted on OPV’s. But the idea we can have enough stuff to deter somebody trying something if they wanted to do something is silly.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

All

A very interesting article…

However I really can’t help getting the impression that the author is far too worried about

  • “high tech risks in tomorrow-tomorrowland”

– and therefore he is simply not worrying nearly enought about defending us against existing low tech risks – ones that are / should already be very obvious and apparent

  • My last comment especially refers to grey zone warfare using civilian assets

Please note that all the attacks since 2022 on other nation’s critical Infrastructure have used “bog-standard merchant ships”- nothing high-tech has been involved (think Baltic pipelines and dragging anchors etc etc)

Furthermore, with regards to UK critical national infrastucture out at sea, the vast majority is in the relatively shallow parts of the North Sea and Irish Sea – with only a relatively small proportion of UK CNI being in very deep water.

Therefore it would be quite possible to attack many UK CNI installations with nothing more complex than a small fishing boat or pleasure craft

  • However that simple fact makes the protection of 80% of all UK CNI that is in shallow waters relatively straighfoward
  • …what we need is some mobile defences and some fixed defences

i.e. nothing so complex as a big submarine is needed (indeed, in the artcle above, the big enemy submarine would proably have run aground if it were attacking our infrastruture located in the middle of the Dogger Bank)

Best possible solutions;

  1. as has been discussed here on Navy Lookout in the past…..The RN now clearly needs some modern and capable coastal patrol boats – small and cheap and relatively lightly armed (say 40mm) would suffice for much of our EEZ. Could be very useful not only for patrol, but also early practical at sea training Several boats which are larger versons (say 60m) of the Damen built Patrick Blanket “class” would be ideal for the task
  2. As I suggested here a few years back, putting very simple very large masts (i.e. tall wind turbine towers without the blades fitted) – all masts fitted with both radar and sonars – would give the UK the facility to monitor all types of traffic – air, surface and subsubsurface – with only a dozen big poles needed down the middle of the North Sea (say one hundred miles out)
  3. The Navy really now ough to be doing what the RAF did with National Air Traffic Control Service (NATS) after 9/11 = put a naval officer permenantly into the Marine and Coastguard Agency (MCA) HQ – so as to to routinuely monitor civilian and thus grey zone threats. The MCA is far more likely to spot unusally patterns of civilian ship behaviour than Navy Command at Northwood

Also nothing whatsoever said about defending UK coastal sites at locations where this underwater infrastructure comes ashore: for example the type of sites which the IRA once attacked back in the 1970’s .

Lets be honest here – attacking one of those coastal sites and/or in very shallow water is often far easier to get into than any of the big stuff out in the very deep briney …….

ie. getting in and out of a deep diving submarine whilst one is wearing the full monty, Jacques Cousteau inspired, black gear…..with the super-silenced flippers and SF snorkel mouth-piece (i.e. the one with the SF dagger holder especially built into the snorkel’s mouthpiece)

.Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS

whilst on the subject of the vulnerabilities of critical national infrastructure to cause serious disruption to modern-day life….. the big buzzword being resilience.

….is the UK government going to organise a charity whip-around?

  • = to buy, and then airdrop, from RAF C17’s 1T boxes of candles to the Spanish?
SailorBoy

I’d love to see a S1850 on top of a wind turbine mast, that would be such a cool way of doing defence. The bigger the radar, the further apart they can be.
Also the “coastal SOSUS”.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Sailorbouy

I will agree with you on this one……

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS what did you think about my suggestion about airdropping candles?

Little Froggy

Peter
Lit candles?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Little Froggy

OF COURSE!

Because….

……how else are the Spanish going to find the airdropped charity supplies in the middle of an nationwide electrcity blackout???

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Whale Island Zookeeper

What we need is a cheap ‘radar element’ we can affix to each turbine in a field and multiplex them.

SailorBoy

The biggest OTH array in history, or a passive gathering system?

Whale Island Zookeeper

Either or both.

Like most things we could do with OHR. It is no substitute for platforms as we need both.

I think JORN is a marvel.

comment image

Last edited 16 days ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
Duker

Fylindales has it sorted, with large SS Phased array radar

Whale Island Zookeeper

No.

SailorBoy

A Northwards-facing OHR, maybe on Orkney, would be great.
Makes the TU-95s much less of a ‘mysterious’ threat if you can see aircraft across much of the North Atlantic.
Do you know anything about the costs of OHR relative to Fylingdales type stuff? They always felt a bit cheaper to me, must be the WW2 style wire arrays.

David Lloyd

You upsetting people again young man ?

Whale Island Zookeeper

Well JORN cost Oz about AU$ 2 billion back in 2003 when it went into service. And in 2018 BAE were given a contract of about AU$ 1.2 billion to upgrade it. Shall we say about AU$ 4 billion? So about £2 billion. It is expensive. But time is everything these days the further out you can look the better it is!

Whale Island Zookeeper

It failed!!!! It was an image of the reach of UK based JORN like system. We could be watching Bears from Northern Norway down.

Whale Island Zookeeper

………

Last edited 14 days ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
Whale Island Zookeeper

Finally managed it!

UK_OTHR_Combined_Map_Hebrides
Duker

Already sorted by a better solution RAF Fylingdales in Yorkshire.

Supposed to another one in Isle of Lewis as was promised in Tory 2017 SDR,…Lol

1280px-RAF_Fylingdales_Radar1
SailorBoy

Fylingdales is a deep space radar, rather than a means of searching the North Sea for aircraft, missiles and drones.
What Peter is suggesting sounds to me more like an Artisan type low level search radar.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Sailourbouy

Artisan would probaly “do the buisness”. However it is proably optimised for large and fast moveing combat aircraft – and at range

I more that in mind something cheap and simple: like either Seachwater/Crowsnest or Giraffe

Thus the radar would be able to detect – from the top of the tower – both low level flying machines and also smaller ships/ boats etc on the water.

Those are the two biggest grey zone threats to CNI

Possibly one of our radar expert(s) could advise of a good choice

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Supportive Bloke

Thing is what are you trying to detect?

That sets the frequency band for the radar.

If it is periscope type things than a very high resolution and discrimination is required. SearchWater/CrowsNest is optimised, certainly the Sea King version, more for periscopes and skimmers which have small and fleeting returns.

If it is large low flying lumps then you need something different.

ARTISAN is a very, very good general purpose radar but I wouldn’t particularly choose it for this role. It isn’t SAMPSON heavy so it can be mounted quit high without the extreme metacentric effects. It is also a moderately expensive set whereas for the purpose you describe you would need a relatively narrow capability and cheapness would be next to godliness.

Russ

It’s actually a Ballistic Early Warning radar, part of the original BMEWS system.

Below is from station website:

“RAF Fylingdales in North Yorkshire provides a continuous ballistic missile early warning service to the UK and US Governments, ensuring a surprise missile attack cannot succeed.

The RADAR is capable of tracking objects including satellites and debris, 3000 miles into space.

Approximately 320 Service Personnel, Ministry of Defence Police, and civilian staff work on site.

RAF Fylingdales falls under UK Space Command.”

Whale Island Zookeeper

No.

Jon

These towers would be more offshore targets, wouldn’t they?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Jon

Not really

Those towers used for tall wind turbines are incredibly robust and ythus would survuve a maajor blast nearby. Only adirect hit frrom “something big” would take one out..

Thereform installinf a long line of towers as an “distant early warning line” – so out beyond our oil rigs and windfarms etc etc – then the towers would have to be attacked first, before the attacker got int the CNI in the North Sea

That distance would thus, in itself, help protect the UK CNI

Peter (irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Notice the radar site near Yorkshire coast

800px-PAVE_PAWSBMEWS.svg1
OkamsRazor

ITP, what a super rational post. And no rant. Are you off your meds?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Okamsrazor

Yep = I was signed off by the NHS yesterday morning (note 1)

——————–

However

  • How about you?
  • Are you feeling OK?

The reason I am asking is that your reply was quite a bit shorter than normal….

and it was definitely lacking your usual comments about risk management issues…..

So would you like me to send you the left over vitamin D tablets????

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Note 1

and then I sucessfully escaped over the high barded wire fence….etc etc

OkamsRazor

🥺

Julian Edmonds

Much cheaper to use what’s already out there. Like redundant oil rigs, or wind turbines with the blades.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Julian

Nice idea – however it almost certainly would not be cheaper.

Under current government plans: almost all decommissioned oil and gas rigs are now being – or will have to be when they soon stop working – removed

Therefore there is simply no point in keeping all of the rigs running insitu just for mounting a very small set of military radars and naval sonars on them

The website of Able UK (up on Teeside) shows the decomissioing issues nicely

  • New windfarm construction vessel: being loaded up with new windfarm tower sections
  • Two old oil rigs being decommissioned (one foreground: one on the hardstanding – which is being rapidly converted into new razorblades)

Able Seaton Port — Able UK

This very interesting article from the Royal Institute of Naval Architects (RINA) last year sums up the scale of this decommissioning challenge

North Sea decommissioning: a complex challenge but a huge opportunity

With regards to your the further suggestion that wind turbine towers – with their rotating live blades still fitted and working – are used for radar masts; forget it.

The huge rotating blades being that close to any radar receiver will seriously cock-up (note 1) the returns = to make the signals worse than useless

  • Therefore some new free-standing masts – ideally founded in open waters and well away for all existing structures – are the way to go

They will be cheap, quick and provide “clean” radar and sonar coverage over the sea- all without interference

  • So, nice idea: but back to the drawing board….

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Note 1.

“cock-up” is a politically incorrect, but technically very correct, term for an permenant mast erection (one which is standing up vertically from the seabed…)

alan wightman

Putin’s Baltic Fleet doesn’t need “stealth” to destroy the pipe-lines / cables as per blatant invasion of Ukraine. Response, if any, knows will be too little, too late & thus “soft” victory with little risk & high reward. We can’t stop illegal “Small Boats” crossing 20 miles of the Channel in “Home Waters”.

Nig e

Remember it’s not just cables (Electric/Communication),We also have hundreds of miles of Gas/Oil pipes around BRITAIN..

Nig e

Could we an updated listening device but more localised like solus!(not sure if I got name right)

alan wightman

Putin destruction in Baltic Sea cost 20% of our daily needs with little threat in return.

Whale Island Zookeeper

You know if want BBC or MSM propaganda we can just go to their sites.

We don’t need you parroting their crap here.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Off topic but this will be of interest to some here. I have often said the carrier without a platform of E2x’s capability isn’t much use. Never mind how Bravo exacerbates that deficiency compared to the Charlie variant. And I have spoken about the size, cost and capability of drones and that they will not be small, cheap or for the moment that capable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLC2hWmbqXk&ab_channel=DecodingGeopoliticsPodcast