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Otterman

I think seabed warfare is increasingly important, but I do think this is an area where ‘national resilience’ and partnership with industry has great value. The Naval Service can’t conceivably do it all alone, one MROS or two is still a drop in the bucket compared to the vast network of undersea cables and pipelines out to waters >1,000m or more.

With hostile actors able to interfere with infrastructure using UUV’s over a huge area, and having plenty of time to do so in peace (laying mines, breaking if they want, physically hacking into data etc.) you have a huge soft target to cover, and one that needs frequent checks as a mitigation. I’m pretty doubtful on catching attackers ‘in the act’.

The only way I can see to do this is to leverage industry, there’s a lot of (nearly total) overlap between Proteus’ equipment and commercial survey. The tens of thousands of miles of infrastructure can’t be swept by her single Gavia/SeaCat with any regularity. I think that the owners and operators of infrastructure should be encouraged to increase the frequency of inspections (sometimes up from virtually never!), possibly by leveraging permit/lease conditions and the Crown Estate requirements. Maybe with some funding carrot, or stick of consequences should poorly checked cables or pipelines fail. A lot of infrastructure is periodically checked anyway (especially pipelines, less so cables), and the frequency could/should be increased.

I also think that cable burial requirements should potentially be examined, while ‘external aggression’ whether accidental or not is a factor in determining burial, clearly there’s lots of vulnerability, it’s hard to bury a cable deep enough to protect against a big ship anchor or intentional damage, but more burial/armoring/mattressing/concrete should be looked at.

We don’t expect the army to provide direct physical protection on a day-to-day basis of hospitals, power stations or other critical infrastructure, why expect the Navy to provide it all for undersea cables and pipelines?

I’ve worked on a couple of Proteus-like subsea intervention ships (geophysicist by background) and with Ocean Infinity and other UUV-using survey players. There’s plenty of capability out there, maybe a model where the bulk of search/survey/inspection is commercial and Proteus able to be called in when something suspicious is found would be worth examining. Neighbourhood watch/Security guards calling the police rather than a bobby on every cable corner.

RichardIC

This point made exactly in recent HoC Defence Select Committee. MoD is looking at the Norwegian model where apparently industry plays a much more active part in safeguarding of subsea infrastructure. Industry are the experts and have far more capacity – they put it all there in the first place.

FormerUSAF

Excellent post! 👍 Wonder whether it could be productive to forward a version of this to select MPs and/or SDR committee? At one time, believe they were actively soliciting input from the public.

Supportive Bloke

Really good post.

The Norwegian model has got a lot going for it. That said RN has got to have capacity to deal with the alerts generated by the private monitoring.

alan wightman

“Proteus called in when something suspicious is found” too little, too late.
Russian Baltic fleet will not be deterred if Putin decides to “punish” UK via destruction of pipe-lines & cables. Defeat of Putin in Ukraine best “defence” for UK.

Burt

Why must so many idiots put Military details,what ever that may be to the general public.Its not a “Need to know..memory’s of 1982…..🙄

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)
  • SECOND SHIP

All

I am still completely baffled as to why the “very similar” Striling Castle cannot also be used for seabed surveys: i.e. using the same type of ROV’s as Proteus

does anybody know why? (or why not?)

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Hugo

Well for one it doesn’t have a moon pool?
Also no crew

Last edited 11 days ago by Hugo
ATH

I think the no crew bit is key. It’ll take years for the RFA to rebuild. With the choices available to UK merchant mariners it’ll be a while before meany of them choose the RFA.

Gary

Doesn’t need a moonpool or ROV

Whale Island Zookeeper

So a ship that is being used to trial MCM systems doesn’t need a moonpool or ROV? Well most of these new systems are based on ROV for obvious reasons. And a moonpool is easier for launching kit than going over the side. So……………….

comment image

Otterman

For the seabed surveys in question you really don’t want an ROV, and UUV/AUV really don’t want to be launched out of a moonpool anyway, ideally a LARS or side A-frame.

Stirling Castle could pretty easily be configured for seabed surveys, if desired.

Johan

While very similar core vessels the Stirling Castle on-board systems and crew are very different.
Mission systems and equipment, I know what you mean though, you would of thought

Gary

No crews

John

STCL is not built with that in mind she was originally a rig support ship and does have the same capacity to run ROV’s off her side or the configuration to do so, she was mainly purchased for her crane to operate with the Mine Warfare Types to launch their kit over the side or off the back.

If you’d need to modify her heavily to Run ROVs as well as alter her guts.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Hugo, WIZ, Otterman, Johan and John

  • Thank you all for your very useful comments.

I must now admit that (very lazily) = I had automtically assumed that Sterling Castle did have a moonpool!

That type of basic mistake is what happens when one read the b**s**t from DES

—–

Here is what the top bloke in DES said publically at the time:

Andy Lapsley, DE&S Mine Hunting Capability (MHC) Team Leader, said:

“I am delighted that RFA Stirling Castle is now ready to begin intensive trials with Maritime Autonomous Systems. The coming year will see a large increase in volume and variety of equipment available to Royal Navy mission teams. Feedback from these trials will help to shape the next generation of maritime capability in Defence.”

so, that in turn leads to the bleeding obvious question =

  • Is the RFA Sterling Castle ROV which is needed to find a enemy mine (or sensor) on the seabed so very very different from the RN Proteus ROV needed to find a enemy mine (sor sensor) fitted on a vital pipeline?

Obviously

  • The RN still has a lot to learn (it is often called joined up thinking)
  • OR it is investing in the wrong type(s) of Maritime Autonomous Systems…

Peter (Irate Txpayer)

Mousekid

Ah, seabed warfare—such a tantalizing field. Having served aboard the HMS Iron Duke (or Dukey, as we affectionately called her), I’ve developed a keen appreciation for the delicate balance of subtlety and power beneath the waves. With the Proteus now in the mix, it seems the Royal Navy is taking that balance to new depths. Deploying systems like the SeaCat and the Defender ROV, she’s proving adept at handling even the most covert of threats—leaving the Russians to squirm as they realize their efforts to tamper with our underwater infrastructure are quickly detected.

The moon pool, a perfect little hideaway for operations, adds a layer of sophistication to what is already a highly refined process. It’s not just about getting down to the depths—it’s about making sure the enemy is thoroughly searched and left with nothing but their soggy dreams. Proteus is positioning itself as the predator in this game of undersea cat-and-mouse.

As the Royal Navy continues to build its seabed warfare capabilities, it’s clear: this is no longer a case of reactive measures; we’re in control, setting the terms of engagement. The waters may be murky, but with Proteus at the helm, it’s clear we know exactly what’s lurking beneath. Keep up the great work, lads—just make sure we don’t leave any Russian surprises unexamined.

Jason

SIS and GCHQ should thank them for doing SIGINT work.

Quentin D63

Sorry for maybe a silly question, but if this up- top helipad is not being used could they bring it down and incorporate more into re-worked upper bow forward structure? I can’t imagine the pad being used in very high sea states though i could be very wrong on that?

Sean

The helipad isn’t rated for military helicopters, but that I don’t think that means it not useable/ useful. For a medical emergency someone could still evacuated by an air ambulance.
Also with CSG pioneering vertrep using drones, it may be useful for some resupply operations.

Jason

Does it not block the navigator’s sight?

Sean

Wasn’t a problem when it was in civilian service. In fact its position is quite common on offshore support vessels as it leaves the stern free.

Fat Bloke on Tour

Not quite getting this — civil helicopter standards are more flexible than military ones?

The flight deck is usable by civil flights / air ambulances.
Then what about the police / coastguard?

Surely the wrong way round — military standards should allow it to operate where civil flights would not be allowed / do not have the capabilities.

What next — the army going off to war with a police escort?

PuddlePirate

I have a feeling it’s less to do with standards and more to do with weight of military as opposed to civvie, but I may be wrong.

fromafar

Also, military helicopters tend to carry things that go bang and need to be transferred to and from the magazine safely, etc. That helipad perched on the bow doesn’t look somewhere to lug a bunch of high explosive to.

Fat Bloke on Tour

Couple of gaps in the argument …

We are happy to have VLS tubes close to the bridge on other ships — in fact we shout hurrah when there is a possibility they might be getting installed — so not sure why we cant organise a lift to get things that go bang to a flight deck above the bridge.

Plus most oil related ships have pretty good fire fighting equipment.
2 very powerful water cannon at least.

However fully active flight deck is not the issue — the issue is the inability of military helicopters to use the flight deck at all. Seems a bit of a waste / a tactical mistake that does not show the services in a good light. As in being fully engaged with the world around them.

I fear we can’t use it because the MAA don’t have a policy on them and are too proud to ask the CAA for a copy of theirs.

Sean

No completely wrong.

It’s a weight issue, as explained in a Navy Lookup article not long after it was bought from civilian service. The helipad max weight is fine for civilian helicopters but not for those used by the military.
Now the RN could spend money strengthening it to take more weight, but they obviously don’t think it a priority given the ships role. They could also spend money to remove it, but it’s not doing any harm being there. So rather than waste money the RN left it there, as it is.

But feel free to ignore Occam’s razor, and the simple facts, and spend your time hypothesising conspiracy theories. Just be aware that posting them makes you look silly.

Fat Bloke on Tour

Maybe the MOD / RN needs top put their helicopters on a diet?
Operational flexibility points to having a helicopter deck being useful.
And surely the all Merlin fleet vibe is history?
300% cost gap looms large again.

Sean

More daft comments. 🤦🏻‍♂️

As you seem to think the magic tree is in season why not add a Sea Ceptre mushroom farm and maybe a 15inch gun turret too…

Bob

You’re looking way too deep into it, it’s not used because military helicopters are too heavy to land on it, it’s not certified for those kind of weights, removing it would alter the ships stability, it’s easier just keeping it on there.

Sean

It’s a helicopter deck, it can be used by helicopters up to a certain weight, and it was used during its civilian service.
But the UK’s military helicopters exceed that weight limit. So it can’t be used by them.
🤷🏻‍♂️

Fat Bloke on Tour

Helicopter deck is 22M diameter / 12.8T limit.
The RN all Merlin vibe lives on.

Not good.

Russ

The line diagram shows that the flight deck is 20m and rated for to 12.8 tons so will easily take a Panther/Dauphin (used by FOST) or Lynx/Wildcat. An ASW Merlin comes in at about 14 tons so that’s out. If they need to use it they will.

Fat Bloke on Tour

Quick mention of the beauty of angle iron engineering — the flight deck is a thing of beauty built at £5K per tonne of worked steel.

More of this please.

Also this platform / vessel architecture for the long lost hospital ship requirement.
Huge flat deck to place a containerised hospital on top of.

What was the hospital spec we were working to 20 years ago?
100 beds / 20 high dependency beds / 5 operating rooms / X ray stuff.
2000m2 all in?

Sean

RFA Argus is the Primary Casualty Receiving Ship. It has a 100 bed hospital, ICU, X-Ray and CT Scan facilities.
Its large deck has 3 landing spaces and can accommodate helicopters up to the size of a Chinook, plus an aircraft lift and hanger.

Have I mentioned Google previously?…

Fat Bloke on Tour

Argus is a grade A bodge because UK MIC couldn’t come up with an effective / efficient design for a brand new PCR ship — UK MIC got all excited / economy left the room and they fell into the trough and drowned if my memory serves me correctly.

Consequently I was looking for the spec we were working to for that ship.

Argus is 44 years old with a very mixed range of uses and capabilities.
She has served us well but she is nowhere near what we need.

Consequently a new build should be the target along with reducing the navigation crew by 67%.

So again — any info on the PCR ship project of 10/20 years ago would be appreciated.

Real estate game that needs to be priced as such.
Any info on why a Bay based solution was not acceptable will get brownie points.

Sean

Oh yes a new build would be lovely… which of the Type 26s do you plan to cancel to pay for it?…
While Argus is old (though younger than some B52s) and a conversion, she’s still a vast improvement over your bodge of having a Proteus style helipad and having patients treated in shipping containers! 🤦🏻‍♂️

Fat Bloke on Tour

So why should a new build cost such ridiculous amounts of money?

The new PCR ship requirement is just a real estate game with a hull to keep the water out — everything else is MOD ego tripping and contractor margin.

Both of which we can’t afford at the moment.

You have been conditioned to accept MOD build economics.
No matter how ridiculous they are / UK MIC friendly they are with an artisan build pace.

Which in today’s world are 400% of the cost they should be.
Evidence everyday in the fields of the Ukraine.

For the record the helipad would be on top of the hospital block.
The hospital block would sit on the huge expanse of deck at the back.
The 150 tonne crane would be on E-bay to help pay for it.

Sean

a) Ships are expensive, way more than your Ford Capri cost
b) Top-end medical equipment is expensive
c) So compared to Argus that can have 6 helicopters on deck offloading casualties, you’d have a single helipad on top of the shipping containers
d) How do you get the casualties from this helipad down to the hospital? Argus has a huge spiral ramp which trolleys can be wheeled down
e) Wartime priorities are very different to peacetime priorities. Comparing what is acceptable on the ground in Ukraine to the UK is a ridiculous argument.
f) Sell “the crane on eBay”… yeah that just about says it all 🤦🏻‍♂️

Fat Bloke on Tour

Do we have 6 helicopters available …

Ships are expensive — yes but COTS offers value.

There is a reason why developing countries go into shipbuilding before they do Big Auto — it is a lot simpler / easier / achievable.

Medical equipment costs — they did not sink the PCR ship project. The price of the ship itself sunk the project.

Helicopters numbers / arrangements — this is not the Tory version of the NHS with ambulances waiting outside to unload.

Proteus is big / the design can be lengthened so more rotors on deck.

Patient transfer — many options / you know like lifts.
Couple going spare seemingly on the PoW.

Main deck level flight deck out the back would be the simplest solution.

Ukraine war build economics — that is the future.

We supply dear / UK and Euro MIC rates with margins a plenty.
Russia builds at pace / at cost / at efficient levels. Margins are set at desperation levels.

We have had 30 years of Dubai civil engineering build costs and didn’t take the hint

Only the terminally stupid will ignore these gaps.

Crane on EBay — banter dear boy banter.
I thought was part of the forces / services game?

Fat Bloke on Tour

RFA Argus — can it land six helicopters at the one time or can it land 3?
You seem to be internally conflicted.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Huge flat deck to place a containerised hospital on top of.

Yes and pity the poor patient who is abed on a working deck of one of those.

Do you know where the ‘hospital’ is in the Argus? Right at the the bottom of the ship amidships where there is the least movement. There is a fantastic spiral ramp from the flight deck down to the bottom of the ship. Quite a climb back up.

You really are going after the prize for the stupidest comment this year aren’t you? Young Duker has some competition.

Fat Bloke on Tour

Blinkered / living in the past / not open to new ideas.
Enough about Brexit — lets talk new ships for the RFA.

Proteus / AHTS vessel architecture — built for steady work in rough seas.
Large flat deck — 10T / m2 spec indeed — 2.5M above the waterline.
Again steady working platform built in from the off.
Cheap / commodity / real world build economics.

Argus / containership hull architecture — bodge after bodge after bodge.
Did a pretty good job but 44 years old / knackered.
Currently slumming it with the marines.
Hospital is currently fresh air.

Spiral ramp to the bottom of the ship — not good for warfare robustness / resilience.
Fair enough as she is a big unit with lots of angle iron and air.
But a challenge to evacuate if things start to go wrong.
Especially with its workload and attendant transport issues.

Least movement — critical for surgery / less so for ward beds.
Above the main deck — might need some pitch / heave control.
If COTS can do this for a 150 tonne crane …
Maybe COTS can do this for an operating theatre.

PCR ship 2010’s project — as noted earlier it would be interesting to know the spec / the design ideas / the nuggets that were driving the design and the cost.

Bay class vessel architecture vs AHTS vessel architecture vs UK MIC hobby horse.
You know the one we cannot afford.

All up against the RFA Argus that is a triumph of bodge engineering.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Much of my musing on the topic of ‘naval warfare’ has been spent on the topic of civilian hulls used for security and auxiliary taskings. From Eire’s Muirchú to the Jervis Bay to the trawlers of the Sparrow’s Nest the conversion work for the Falklands to Maersk AFSB to MV Asterix to yes the RFA and my beloved Argus and most points in between I have looked at everything from yachts to liners. The difference between me and you is I spent time learning how ships are screwed together, how they work, and how the crews that man them work. You are just pulling figures from the air with no rhyme or reason.

Last edited 8 days ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
Fat Bloke on Tour

No — you do not know how to put ships together you know how to bodge them to suit what particular emergency you are tasked with.

Expert in the marine uses of concrete but not ship design.

There is a difference and you might want to work on that gap.

Numbers out the air are all we have as their is a 300% gap between current MOD cost economics and real world global standards.

Next gen PCR ship — might be oil industry hull architecture or it could have containership hull architecture but it needs to be affordable.

RFA Argus is a top quality bodge but we can do better unless you have been in a slow decline professionally since 1985.

Duker

Foudre, built for what Argus does

Foudre-021
Fat Bloke on Tour

Not a looker is she?

Very trad and you can see the stretch marks.
Well deck is very long — 70% of waterline — so vehicle transport is limited.
All in all very 1942 design vibe plus a flight deck.
Does it have a sizable hospital onboard?

AHTS vessel architecture can provide the size / scale no problem.
The well deck would be a much tougher issue.

However there may be other ways of launching stull out the back.
Shoving an LCM off the end and then adding the tank.
As against flooding the well deck and floating the loaded LCM out.

Do we have any plans to introduce a new range of high performance LCMs?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Fat Bloke On Tour

  • FACT-CHECKER
  • Back in the 1980’s Argus was NEVER converted from commercial use into a Primary Casualty Receiving Ship (PCRS).

It had a lenghty conversion from a commercial container ship to become an aviation training ship – designed so as to allow realistic training for all types of avaition crews, mainly on Harriers and whirrybirds, in very realistic conditions (ie out at sea

(remember the days of the the RN doing that reguarly……!!!!)

Thus, the mid 1980’s plan was to use Argus for aviation training (instead of the Invincible Class) and thus make the Invincibles even more operationally effective

That is why the stern deck design of Argus just after its first 1980’s conversion – especially the deck lifts etc – very closely mirrors the Invincibles.

  • Also the stability characteristics used during that first 1980’s conversion were selected so as to closely mirror the the invincibles:
  • i.e. Argus wobbles from side to side a lot…..

———

Then Gulf War One “just sort of happened” – mainly because “Six” had failed to notice a huge build up of tanks on the Kuwaiti border

(PS does that incompetence sound familiar in Feb 2022?)

  • GW1 was to be a proper large scale shooting match with WMD’s (Weapons of Mass Destruction
  • however the big war was not to be fought in Europe:
  • …..but instead in Arabia
  • So, nothing whatsoever worked as planned
  • Thus all UK defence planning – about how to fight a big war – went CTC (note 1)

—————–

One of very very many UK CTC’s was as follows:

…….The Army’s 1980’s era field hospitals had been designed to deal with WMD’s (including chemical weapons)

……..however only for a hot war in Europe

Thus, in Arabia, they could not have coped with mass casualties from enemy WMD’s – simply because in very warm climates one had to keep the Army’s field hospital’s doors open …so as to keep the hospital cool in the desert

= which is frankly not a great lot of use when the enemy you are facing (Saddam H and his nasty sidekick called Chemical Ali) had WMD’s called chemical weapons = and had already used them repeatedly on its own citizens over the past decade (1980-90)

Thus Gulf War One was the completely the wrong type of Hot War for the British Army to cope with….

………so they asked for help from the Royal Navy

( Yep…… the Army Dress Committee were that desperate !!)

——————————

Thus, in one hell of a hurry, RFA aviation training ship Argus was converted to be a Primary Casualty Receiving Ship.

Such a high priority programme that the new four letter TLA was invented especially y for it…

Thus PCRS was known in the trade as a “bodge job”

Indeed so unpleasent was Argus to live abord during GW1 that UK military head honcho General (Sir) Peter De La Billiere notes just how unpleasent it was to live on (in his own autobiography).

Apparently it was even worse than tenting in the desert

…mainly becauise that conversion had left the old air-conditioning system fitted…

However, due to the proper use of deterence (note 1), Argus was never used for mass casualties

Thus, ever since Argus has been the four letter TLA of the PCRS

: ……despite never ever being properly designed for the job

…..and thus being adapted and coverted a few times since

Some of the major disadvantages of Argus’s present configuration are the huge amount of space used by those deep / long ramps and also also the sheer difficulty of evacuating immobile patients from intensive care wards up into the lifeboats

————————-

What I would add in relation to any possible replacement(s) for Argus, is that things have moved on “quite a bit” since the 1990’s

… in particular those more modern cruise liner thingies now have something called roll stabilisers fitted

These work – a bit little on a child’s peddle bike – to stop the modern cruise ship rolling fom side to side.

These stabilisers have three great operational advantages:

  • thus the improved stability then allows the hospital wards/bays to be at the top of the ship
  • Thus makes evcuation of casulaties (SOLAS) much easier….
  • and – added bonus ball – allows helicoptors to operate in much worse sea and weather conditions

Thus on any future big RN ship equipped with a hospital bay (or two) – it should be very easily possible to have the hospital wards / bays both;

  • very easily accessible from the helipad
  • and also to remain close to the lifeboats…

……all without requiring even more intensive care beds just for sea-sickness

  • Of course: IF the RN employed proper engineers and/or naval architects = it would know these very basic things (i.e. like how to do a basic stability calculation on a big ship)

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

  • TLA Translator No1 : CTC = Completely To Cock
  • Note 1.
  • Instead Maggie threatened to use Polaris on Saddam and all of his mates if Iraqi chemical weapons were ever used on British Squaddies (ie. whilst they were out in the desert practicing their outdoor camping (note 2) skills)
  • That very serious threat of a very serious “nuclear handbagging” seemed to do the trick…..very nicely….
  • Thus Argus was not used for Mass Casualties in GW1
  • Note 2
  • Back in those far more innocent times of the early 1990’s …..”Pongo’s Going Camping” had a very different meaning from the term now in common use today..
  • Note 3
  • However, if the Army is called in to sort out Brmingham’s Rubbish Crisis… then the squaddies really will be called Pongo’s
  • Note 4
  • I hope the Pongo’s in Brum are being issued with nicely tailored boiler suits….
  • …..as good PR is very important for the Armed Services these days
Little Froggy

Liners were often converted in hospital ship, like Uganda was in Gibraltar during the beginning of Falklans War, with survey ships Hecla, Hydra and Berald as ambulance ships.

Little Froggy

Herald, not Berald, and Falklands, not Falklans

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Little Froggy

Noted and agreed

However those 1982 era hospital ships were “rush job” conversions.

In all three cases, the key issue when they were actually in service was getting severly injured casulties onto and off the ships: especially by helicoptor(s)

Frankly, in many cases, they were not real hospital ships: they were used as ambulance ships.

So in many cases, the ships did little more except to transport the wounded patients to the nearest shoreside hospital (often Montevideo in neutral Uruguay)

Microsoft Word – RFA history 06 Hospital Ships.doc

—————-

Medically things have moved on one hell of a lot since 1982.

Servicemen who would have been written off in 1982 as “beyond all help” have recently been, especially during Afganistan, saved and rebuilt

Today, wth any very severely wounded patient, properly considering how best to move them on and off a ship (and indeed, to and from any medical facility) is nowdays literally a matter of life and death

  • i.e. move them too frequently or too roughly = they die!
  • Furthermore, nowdays the medics always want to get very severely injured casaulties back to the UK asap = so that means by air

That is why a hell of lot of things now need to be rethought; especially about how UK naval and especially commando casualties are properly treated and best moved – and that total rethink is needed throughout all three of the UK armed services.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Still do surgery in war zones. Its the long recovery that requires a shore hospital and any ongoing surgery

The Thatcher and Polaris on Saddam is too silly for words….Britain had its own nuclear armed RAF at the time.
Actually it was SHE who threatened chemical weapons .LOL
Margaret Thatcher suggested threatening Saddam with chemical weaponshttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40667031

Last edited 7 days ago by Duker
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Duker

Incorrect about the RAF.

  • Yes the RAF had freefall nuclear bombs in Germany:
  • However the UK never deployed any of them out to the Gulf (because host nation Saudi did not want them)
  • therefore not possible to use the Crabbs as a detterent…..

Also incorrect about the Threat

Please look at this official US evaluation after the war; especially pages 3 and 5

Assessing the Nuclear Lessons of the First Gulf War from Project on Nuclear Issues: A Collection of Papers from the 2016 Nuclear Scholars Initiative and PONI Conference Series on JSTOR

Please note thaI, post-war, Iraqi’s nuclear weapons programme was found to be very advanced…..

= which is why a lot of people spent a lot of time and effort over the next decade dismantling that threat

————-

Then look at the offical RAF history

raf.mod.uk/what-we-do/centre-for-air-and-space-power-studies/aspr/apr-vol19-iss2-1-pdf/

  • Note 18th August – when threats of nukes and chemical weapons were being banded about
  • Then note 12th September – when the Mad Mullahs in Tehran threatened to join in on Iraqi’s side – and make it a regional holy war
  • Then remember that Israel – which was armed with nuclear weapons in 1991 – was repeatedly being hit with Iraqi Scud missiles
  • The really big fear at the time was if those had been carrying chemical weapons then all hell really would break out…..(i.e. you do not gas jews living in Isreal and expect to get away with it……)

Then, immedaitely after the end of Gulf War One; this debate in Parliament.

Please note the issue about the ongoing Iraqi nuclear weapons programme still being a threat is raised…..

Nuclear Deterrence – Hansard – UK Parliament

  • So yes: nuclear threats were made in 1990

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS

  • and not forgeting that Maggie left office in Nov 1990: several weeks before the big shooting match kicked off.
  • Also remember the IRA came exceptioally close to killing her successor John Major = whilst he was chairing a war cabinet meeting inside No 10
Little Froggy

Noted and agreed, too.
May be it depends on the theater?
Red Sea, Subsaharian Africa, Norway coast, Baltic and of course Pacific theaters need different means?
May be allies could be useful in some way?

martin

do not see the point of this ship, the companies that own the under sea cables have the ships capable of dealing with damage to their cables, and the oil companies have similar capabilities for pipe lines. They should be doing this.
What can proteus do to stop a dragged anchor doing damage or even stop people placing underwater scanning devices on the sea bed in international waters.

Sean

The cable companies certainly should, and presumably do monitor for damage etc. Not to mention the RN can’t afford dozens of ships like Proteus to do this work.
But Proteus can scan the sea bed in sensitive areas, an obvious example, where our SSBNs transit when leaving for patrol. It’s not just damage to cables, the Russians have also been leaving surveillance devices behind while transiting though our waters.

Fat Bloke on Tour

RFA — currently 11 ships in the “active” fleet.
Seemingly paying out 1800 wages as we speak.
Not sure why we would be having issues manning all the RFA fleet?

Double crewing — OK.
Higher crew density — OK
50 instead of 25 is a possibility.
RN are seemingly also onboard to work the difficult stuff.

Consequently not sure that running 5 or 6 is credible given the numbers involved?
If we are inventing rules to make it difficult / impossible then the answer would be stop.

Nig e

I understood proteus was to be a prototype vessel & that new builds would follow!(3),after lessons learnt
Is this still the case?

Scribes

Sorry matey your getting confuse with Stirling Castle which was/is the first of its kind as MCM support vessels. Although those across the Channel have a way better idea about getting real warships build to do the role etc. The RN is falling behind again.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

“The RN is falling behind again”

Scribes

Please Sir!

A correction to the grammar used in your last sentence. It should have read:

“The Royal Navy fell behind a very long while ago: and is still way behind today”

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Hugo

An in closed deployment bay is not the future of autonomous MCM, the systems will rapidly expand and the ship will be left outdated or constrained

Nig e

As for helicopter pad that seems like a handy piece of kit to have and to uprate it to military spec on a new build should be ok. Just to throw a curve ball does anyone remember HMS CHALLENGER!

Nig e

HMS CHALLENGER (K07) 1984-90 (7200t) Deep sea diving vessel & cable inspection (sub rescue).Sold to S,African interests despite interest from USN.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Nig e

The Editor has beaten you to it ……by a few years

Context and considerations – new multi-role research vessels for the UK | Navy Lookout

Much of what it tried to do remains top secret = mainly because it failed to work properly!.

So please also see this one

The fascinating story of HMS Challenger (K07) « Quotulatiousness

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Nig e

I seam to remember rumours that k07 might have been built for one specific job involving wwii gold/u235 any though ts?

Duker

Germans had almost zero U235. They had no infrastructure to refine it from the 238. Nor did they even know about plutonium… the experts knew it had to exist and they called this theoretical element eka-osmium !

Nig e

Sorry!Duker,I was referring to radio active material in gen and not just u235..it could also be cold War era material! not just wwii as I said they were rumours.but K07 did have a bit of the Howard Hughs about it!

Duker

There was no yellowcake, ( the Germans had almost none of that either) the refined ore which is hardly radioactive at all.
Why would Britain go to all that trouble for a now commonly available product.

Nig e

Have some memories of Japan sub bringing uranium to the Germany but not making it?

Duker

Fake memory. The U234- the U boat not the uranium ore- surfaced at end of war and was surrendered to USN. It was supposed to be going to Japan. yellow cake or gold part dubious. As the germans had very little yellowcake of their own, 500lbs total

Read the facts
https://dubm.de/mysterious-cargo-u-234/?lang=en

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Duker

Or an even better source

New Details Emerge About Japan’s Wartime A-Bomb Program – Los Angeles Times

Please note the comment about the US Manhatten project then going on to use German uranium inside the US made bomb that was later dropped on Hiroshima!

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Nig e

Did the Japanese have their own nuclear program?…
IF they had such a large quantity.