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The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Sailed away from wall as it? Or is she now flying a Wildcat with additional personnel from 42 plus crew served weapons?

Captian America

Fight tonight? or 2 weeks late?
Did they bring enough baked beans and bog rolls too?

Last edited 1 month ago by Captian America
The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

I have total trust in the logisticians. I bet they have landed the cab and filled the hangar with box meals……..


32 rather than 36 sea ceptor I think?

Order of the Ditch

I wonder if Somerset will soon be joining her? Quite a lot of the escort fleet is now tied up in this operation.

Maybe we should buy an interim weapon to go in the Type 31 MK42 silos for land attack, just to cover the gap between entry of service and the introduction of Future Cruise missile that we won’t be getting until at least 2033?
Would go some way to dealing with the RN’s almost non existent land attack capability.


The cruise missile in FC/ASW will be ready for Mk 41 in 2028 and Typhoon in 2030 whilst the ASHM won’t be ready until 2036.

The 11 sets of NSM can/will be fitted to T23, T26, T31 and T45.

Last edited 1 month ago by Louis
Supportive Bloke

11 sets of NSM is loads for this.


So, how many NSM missiles do we ACTUALLY possess?


11×8=88, I doubt there are more, the Norwegians and Americans are struggling to keep up with demand.

Last edited 1 month ago by Franky

Do you mean today or do you mean the planned stock level?

Mike Gill

Somerset whilst having NSM fitted is not operational with them, first firings/snagging needs to be done. Nor has she fired/tested her Sea Cepter missile system since refit.
The talk of buying an interim weapon to go into Type 31 Mk41 silo is very premature and not affordable. UK has as yet not requested to purchase any Mk 41 from USA so that’s not even in the pipeline at the moment. Until we see news of a FMS to the UK of Mk 41 it’s not started to happen.
I remain positive but don’t think it’s happening as soon as some think/wish.


US State department – Defense Security Cooperation Agency says 95% of FMS applications are approved in 48 hours.
For something like the MK41 and for Britain it wont be a problem that it hasnt been ‘approved yet’

B Gate

And when will it be installed and how long to train the personnel?

Or is just as simple as your software update, just by clicking the mouse?


The time from launching (delayed) to going operational is many many years anyway. The most importaant part is actaully installing.
What training problems do you see apart from the entire weapons system itself. Is this a new fangled thing the RN has never seen before ….vertical launch

B Gate

So just plug in the USB and click launch? Has RN ever had any MK4?
No training needed? Like your PlayStation 5?

What Navy have you ever been in?

Last edited 1 month ago by B Gate

I doubt mk41 are an item sitting on the shelf at LM. More likely a build to order item. Getting permission in 48 hrs won’t help much unless you can convince someone already in the queue to give up some spots or already delivered but not installed direct from USN.

Supportive Bloke

More likely that there is a common stockpile as with the P8 munitions?


Doubt it. Mk41 launchers tend to be permanent fixtures. They are usually there for the life of the ship (30+ years). Some navies do have 2nd hand units in the shed if your desperate, but remember they come in 3 different lengths. If you want new, I would suggest looking at the German ship that had one destroyed by a hot missile launch when the hatch didn’t open. It’s now been replaced I believe, but that was an unplanned order for an active ship. It should be a good indication of how long it takes to get one (& only one), when you are in a hurry.

Supportive Bloke

I was talking about what goes into Mk41 not the tubes themselves which are, as you say, fabricated to order.

RN has got sets in order for T26, with some delivered, some of which are being diverted to T31 and backfilled.


It would not be outside the realm of the possible to make an interim purchase of tomahawk to go with the Initial M41s going into the fleet.


But currently it would be out of budget. The Chancellor confirmed in the Autumn financial statement that the defence budget would stay at 2% of GDP. Unless that position changes few new weapons systems will be brought. Given the demand from Tory MPs for tax cuts it’s unlikely the defence budget will increase before the election.

Supportive Bloke

I don’t think we would / should know that level of operational detail.

Given the incredible levels of tensions IOC might not be announced at all – unless there was an effect desired from that.


Again, even if ordered tomorrow, you aren’t going to get them any time soon, unless an existing customer is prepared to provide from existing national war stocks. RAN already has an order in for 200 ship launched versions. These are not 5.56/7.62mm munitions knocked out by the thousand. An RN order of any magnitude will be conflicting with that of existing allies. If you want to jump the queue, it’s possible, but this is not pizza or fish & chips.


The reality of all these single ship deployments is that while they constitute a significant effort for the peacetime navy, there is not much behind them should a serious conflict ever erupt. As it is, ships are deploying without key capabilities – no SSMs and minimum helicopter numbers. And too many ships are old, in refit or otherwise unmanned. It doesn’t leave much for a serious effort and if there were ever to be ship losses, things would go south rather quickly.


We always need to build classes of 8 for maximum efficiency of types. Hence somehow we need to afford( in an ideal world) as a fleet basis apart from carriers and SSBNs as follows:

8x SSN
8x DD
8x T26
8x T31
8x T32?

This would require a huge effort and recruitment/ training mission as we are nowhere near.
However hopefully the building blocks are in place for much of it. We will need all of 24 frigates with some to replace the minesweepers. We should order more T31 frigates this year. I cant see any other place but Rosyth. If we cant man them then perhaps someone else could.

Empire strike back

Yes I agree.
Plus the Far East Fleet, the Mediterranean Fleet and the Home Fleet too


How do you buy these ships on the 2%GDP budget the Chancellor confirmed in the Autumn financial statement? There is no point pontificating on ship class numbers till there is either a change in the budget or big cuts in the programmes of the other services. Work on money first then how to spend it. Less fun than ship top trumps but more real world.


How do you buy these ships on the 2%GDP budget the Chancellor

Airfix models

Andrew Deacon

Shall we add 8 OPV? I’m not sure at what stage all 5 Batch 2 OPV were going to be Forward Based, but guess what they need refits and repairs! From what you’re listing, keeping the T31 factory running is most realistic and may be overseas orders as well.


Yes, we shall.
And add another 2 carriers while you are at it.


I would start with some aircraft for the two that are already in the inventory…


Waste of time till block 4 comes available. F35 in general is currently a very poor fighter. It has almost no integrated weapons aside from bombs & a very limited number of missiles. Everything is dependent on block 4 which is a moving target & not all existing F35 are capable of going to block 4. It’s a lesson on how not to design a fighter jet.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

I am trying to understand how the UK as the program’s main partner still has only 35 Bravos whereas Oz has 72 Amy’s,,,,,,,,,,,,

lord lucan

easy, the difference between genius and stupidity is that stupidity has no limits


I think you might want to do a little more research on that…

Toby J

We could probably twist the ratings to make T83 not technically an escort so that we get up to 20 frigates rather than including destroyers. Shapps certainly wouldn’t notice




HMS Diamond has not had the best mechanical reliability track record and HMS Lancaster is an old ship ???

You cannot be serious !!!
I don’t believe it.

People here said RN is invincible, T45 is solid as a rock, and T23 can sprint like a chicken, has someone been telling Porky?

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Good grief imagine a propulsion system failure in the middle of the Red Sea. Doesn’t bear thinking about…….

Andrew Deacon

We were discussing how the Wise Men navigated at church last week,to which I observed that HMS Diamond will have charts and sextant on the bridge in case navigation system is clobbered one way or another!

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper



All it takes is an unexpected solar flare of the right magnitude & that’s a real scenario.


failure in the middle of the Red Sea

no big deal, just bring out the rods and do some fishing, I heard that the Red Sea has some big ones.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

It gets hot. Tales of hellish temperatures in Leander boiler rooms.

Mark P

Well if Richmond replaces Lancaster 18 months early, I can see Lancaster will be scraped on her return as she would need a refit after being worked hard by a duel crew on rotation


More likely she will go back to her roll in the Gulf. Or the 3 ships will rotate between the Red Sea and Gulf.


Does she have a bread roll in the Middle East, Tim?


Given that the RN is having to scrap T23s it had hoped to keep using because they were in a worse condition than they hoped, I imagine Lancaster will get a refit on her return. She’ll only be scrapped if a successful refit and return to service looks impossible.

Last edited 1 month ago by Sean

“Subsequently, Grant Shapps has said HMS Richmond is going to replace either HMS Diamond or HMS Lancaster so there is “not an escalation”. “
This is the kind of robust response we want to see from our defence secretary in the face of what is essentially a modern form of privateering by Iran. Please can we have Wallace back..?

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Wallace is a dangerous fool.


That’s an interesting take, and not one I’ve heard before from defence commentators before- what’s the reason?
From my (admittedly not professional) perspective, he seemed to push hard for sufficient resource to be provided to the military to fulfil the roles called for- which is one of the key jobs of the defence secretary, no?


I always thought Wallace did a very good job – always on the push for more resources and very determined to help MOD push forwards.

Supportive Bloke


He pushed for more.

He did get some things sorted.

Their Lordships have made a total mess of recruitment……that is their doing not BW’s.


He did, ignore the Zoophile.

Andrew Deacon

Lancaster is rotating crew every 4 months. Question is can they do that with Richmond and Diamond without tying up anything else?


Grant Shapp’s comment “…not an escalation” sounds like a weak response from a weak country/government.

Given the parlous state successive governments have treated the military services, no wonder!


Its told you so time. Latest news from the Red Sea narrow straits

Reportedly, HMS Diamond was responsible for shooting down seven of the 18 drones fired by the Houthis, using both Sea Viper air defense missiles and gunfire.” – Defence HQ

So many said that using the 4.5in gun or the Phalanx wasnt possible against slow moving drones especially around 5km and greater away


Good info on yesterdays events in Red Sea.
What is going on with shipping ?
Red sea convoy clash : US vessels attacked Iranian spy ship Will China shield you ?

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

I was hoping the Israeli Sea Corps would have dealt with that problem for the West.


They did, a limpet mine on the Saviz sufficiently damaged it that the Iranians had to send tugs to tow it back to port.
Unfortunately it’s been replaced by the Behshad.


The Royal Navy is in some kind of crisis and its the usual suspect chiefly to blame.
Its not those many Admirals and its not much to do with those mighty Carriers; its primarily to do with the Politicians and the Treasury. The Politicians because somehow they are able to sleep soundly yet while all around them the world becomes more disorderly as the Dictators assert themselves and they gravely underestimate the risks associated with carrying a broken stick.
However the prime warship contractor has something to make up for. Until the national ship building plan came about they had a monopoly and therefore the price of frigates was huge and the yards to build them in, outdated and inefficient. If they had had to face competitive bids they might have likely enabled the building of at least 9 and probably 10 T26 frigates and they might have been built a decent pace.
Defence is too important to be left to the passing politicians of the day alone. The Defence reviews should not be impositions; they should follow open discussions by well informed persons (More than ill informed amateurs shouting the odds) with national targets set and the means to implement them enacted with a first call on the national budget.
A hand to mouth approach is an insult to those who volunteer to fight for their country and for the country at large.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

It’s informed professionals who have help the RN into this mess.

By ill informed amateurs do you mean taxpayers?


I think he meant that the politicians were ill-inofrmed amateurs. But it’s not even all of the politicians. The Chancellor, whose father was an admiral, called for 3% of GDP. Even Grant Shapps and Liz Truss called for 3% and Shapps repeated the 3% message after he became DefSec although in a mealy-mouthed way (I’m on record as having said…). At the end of the day this is only down to one person: the Prime Minister, who all follow in fear that the party will fall to pieces without him.

Luke Barnes

I’m an American that comes here because A: I love the site, and wish we had an American equivalent, and B: the comments. You guys never fail to disappoint!

I want to mention one thing though. I’ve seen a ton of talk about what to put in the mk41. I want to mention that as an AShM/land attack adoption, there’s already a program in development for the JSM/VL. With a hi-hi-lo flight profile, it offers longer range thang the NSM typically does in its lo-lo-lo profile, and should work with interfaces already on RN vessels.

Beyond that, a question. Wouldn’t CAMM-er be a truly valuable addition to t-26/31? That could be done relatively cheaply?