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Bloke down the pub

Would be a shame if they lost their ROV while in the Irish Sea.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Bloke Down the Pub

The Russian’s have just – quite-deliberately and very provocatively – ignored what has been a very-well established international law of the sea since 1st Jan 2005

This incident is a very clear breach of international maritime law by the Russian’s

(The law is IMO / SOLAS V19).

However, whilst Yantar was near to UK waters: it did not have its AIS transponder on..

Accordingly, when Yantar was firsts een approaching British waters, Yantar should have been, as a mattter of long-stading routine and, frankly, standard operating procedure

The correct procedure would be, initially, for this SOP to be done by the MCA.

The three-stage escalation in these type of quite-regaular situations should have been::

  1. first hailed on channel 16……..
  2. then asked what the F****** it is playing at… ….
  3. if necssary: then intecepted………..

And then – when the Russians then (most-probably) either refuised to stop and/or refused to allow the MCA aboard – then the Yantar should then have been, quite legally, forceably stopped by the RN

Finally, the correct – and well-established – international law of the seas for what should happen next = is very clean-cut

The offending ship must be brought to the nearest UK port: for a full safety inspection.

So, once again, Navy Command / PJHQ (Northwood) were asleep on the job

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Know your rules

SOLAS:Regulation 1 – Application  1 Unless expressly provided otherwise, this chapter shall apply to all ships on all voyages except:

  • .1 warships, naval auxiliaries and other ships owned or operated by a Contracting Government and used only on Government non-commercial service; and
DAVID GRAHAM

Correct. I had during my time involved in international monitoring, control and surveillance of fisheries waters much to do with UNCLOS82 and its subsequent amendments. Warships and government owned vessels [for example, the RFA] are exceptions to the rule.

As this activity is within the UK EEZ, UNCLOS is clear about the responsibilities of coastal States. However, this activity is in international waters [Albeit within the UK EEZ], so it is hard to see how an MCA officer could intervene. How does he/she board this Russian ship? If the officer does, how does that official get the Russian ship to proceed to the nearest UK port? I have been involved in boardings in exactly these situations, and I can assure readers they are fraught with difficulty, and I was only dealing with fish.

Having been closely involved during the Cold war with submarine activities I can envisage what might have happened then, but who knows what the rules may be in 2024.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Know Your Rules

Quite correct…..

…however

..the rule applies to warships and auxillaries etc operating out on the high seas...

This is what the UK government officially says about this situation:

“The Administration may decide to what extent this chapter shall apply to ships operating solely in waters landward of the baselines which are established in accordance with international law”

In this case, the adminstration is the UK government…and the baselines are defined as the sea areas lying between the UK and Irish and European mainland land masses

The Yantor was operating in the Irish Sea; so waters which are officially defined as being part of the UK’s (or Ireland’s) EEZ – Exclusive Economic Zone(s)

UK Exclusive Economic Zone | Navy Lookout

Thus the Yantor was operating “between the legal baselines”, and thus within an enclosed body of water which is located between land masses:

Hence, in this case, thefour weasel words contained in your own quote apply :

“Unless expressly provided otherwise”

Thus Yantor should be, very easily, be subject to any proper legal challenge by the UK…..

———————

So, next, taking a suitable modern analogy directly from the aviation world:

In situations when any civilian-operated, but government-owned plane is flying over the high seas:

  • Post 9/11, if any aircraft is approaching towards UK airspace without its transponder(s) being switched on (i.e the aviation world’s direct equivalent to maritime AIS)…..
  • then one of the Crabbs is sent off to work: running towards a QRA plane
  • then the Typhoon(s) are ordered, as SOP, to intercept the “unknown bogie”
  • whilst it is still far out in international airspace.
  • and, once intercepted, Biggles waves, and establishes what is happening
  • and, in the worst cases, Biggles then follows the naughty plane into land….
  • when it is ordered to park on the “naughty spot” at Stanstead Airport
  • which is precisely is what happened to one very naughty Russian owned civilian cargo plane back in the long hot summer of 2018 (see below)
  • …..it was escorted into Stanstead by the RAF’s “Mr Sidewinder”
  • ——————-

In this particular case, what should have happened out in the Irish Sea over the past few days should have been exactly the same as what always happens whenever any civilian airliner is not properly communicating its position to others

The rules of engagement are, paraphrasing: “it might be threat and/or a collision hazard: so we have the right to check up on it:

Then, if the potential threat does not respond: we can take appropriate action …

Note that this ship is owned by that very nice Russian military intelligence agency = the very-same one which the ongoing public inquiry into the Salisbury novichock attack in 2018 – an attack which was wholly concurrent with the aforementioned ariel intercept by the crabbs……

I quote the words of the ongoing public inquiry = “it could have killed thousands”

So, knowing full well that this ship is owned by the very naughty boys

= in this case it would have been “quite legit” for the MCA to go out and check up on it as a potentail collision hazard

and then, when it did not respond, theMCA to officially declare it a possible terrorist threat…the rest is an SOP

—————

So, globally, what is “good for the goose” over here in the Irish Sea must also be “good for the gander” over there, over in the North West Pacific.

So, to prove this key point of maritime law once and for all, and also because we are planning to be sending the QE Carrier Strike Group to the Far East next year anyway

UK Carrier Strike Group to visit Japan in 2025 – GOV.UK

= why not a day-long cruise by the RN CSG around the Sea of Oknotsk?

Which is definitely as all being international waters:

The sea of Oknotsk is just one day’s sailing north from Japan

But, Russia claims it as its own waters. because it has Siberia on three sides

So tell the QE’s captain to turn the AIS off; and also not to bother to go to action stations?

—————–

Nobody reading this particular website should need any reminder whatsoever that it was on Tuesday 1th Sept 2001 that just four transponders were turned off, on just four large US owned civilian planes…… and…..what happened next?

The US military was unable to react in time: unable to defend its own HQ.

——————–

The UK needs to get quite-a-bit smarter with how we “play by the rules“..

i.e. we should abide by THE key UN mandate: “the right to self-defence”

In this case, as the black Russian Navy fully appreciates, they were deliberately operating inside a legal “grey zone”: and the RN did not call their bluff

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

The 12nm limit is UK territorial seas. beyond the ‘economic sea’ for resources
Beyond the 12nm limit is international waters for shipping transit

The map shows EU fishing within the 12nm limit but shows the extent of what is UK territorial waters including straight lines connecting peninsulas and islands
comment image?lossy=1&strip=1&webp=1

Last edited 2 months ago by Duker
Sean

You finally post something shorter than a doctoral thesis…
and you make a fundamental blunder as to its applicability to warships…

Not Navy Command asleep but yourself.

Last edited 2 months ago by Sean
DAVID GRAHAM

Good morning Sean,
I take your points and totally agree. When I was still in the Navy, and when I did my Staff Course I studied International Maritime Law because I was interested in it, little realising that would stand me in good stead when I left. When the Falkland Islands fisheries directorate [as it was then] was established in 1987, I became operations controller and was therefore responsible for boarding operations. I mention this to assure readers I am well familiar with UNCLOS 82, EEZ regs as they apply to coastal states, the territorial sea and contiguous zone etc.

One of the fundamental issues is could Yantar be boarded in an EEZ? yes, of course, but that would require the co-operation of the ship, highly unlikely in this event. The only safe method is from a RIB; don’t listen to nonsense about boarding from a patrol boat, inevitably smaller than the target vessel. think a Border Force cutter alongside the much larger Yantar. Like everyone who has done my sort of job, I’ve done lots of boardings of moving vessels on the high seas, and the watchword is take care, as each and every one is a potential accident, particularly if one is not really welcome.

Perhaps submarine activity is the answer here? I had a number of appointments on the Faslane Ops Staff, but that was during the Cold War when the situation was a tad different.

Supportive Bloke

Exactly 👍

Boarding a Russian Naval likely with armed agents on board who are not that well trained or restrained would likely end badly unless you had enough firepower to sink it in short order – and that is a massive escalation.

In this instance we would likely want to have a very close look at what they are up to and maybe get in the way – ‘accidentally’ mind.

Always a terrible shame if some of their kit is ‘damaged’ while in use?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

David and Supportive Bloke

You have both – quite incorrectly – stated that I said “board” in my first post.

I did not.

There are very many other possible ways of gradulally escalating……which could all be done long before long before sending over a RN or RMC boading party

This most-recent Russian operation (and also, it now has to be said, your two comments) yet again highlights just how smart the Russian Navy planners are when they plan this type of “grey zone” operation.

The RN really needs to learn – or should that last phrase have read “relearn” – how to react properly to a far-to-obvious provocation.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

Its not a grey zone. The middle of the Irish sea up till the Isle of Man is international waters.
The North Channel isnt- but Yantar can only do ‘transit’

800px-IrishSeaReliefmap1
Duker

This is the fibre cable network in Anglo-Irish sea from
https://www.submarinecablemap.com/

Screenshot-2024-11-17-095352
DAVID GRAHAM

Peter,
The reason I mentioned boarding is that any attempt to board such a vessel will end in tears. We monitored the Malin Head AGI throughout the Cold War, both with surface assets [often Clyde Division’s sweeper, other Tons or sometimes RFA Blue Rover]. Sometimes also by 3/SMs SSKs.

Our Coast Guard in its present form are powerless to do anything about this kind of event; you are right in that a more robust approach is needed and I suspect this present administration haven’t a clue as to what to do in case it is seen, for whatever reason, as a “provocation”.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

David G

I totally agree with you

That is precisely why I – “quite deliberately” – did not use that very nasty little word “board” in my first post….. because I wanted to be procative and thus provoke a reaction ….

and so why I later remarked that there are “other ways” of escalting

Like me, you are a former Cold War Warrier: given away by the fact that you used the term “AGI”

Baby sailors (Northwood) AGI = Auxillary Gatherer of Intelligence

What nobody in the RN sems to have spotted is that this particular ship was located to north of the Isle of Mann; to do what Russian AGI’s were always very good at = electronic intelligence gathering

I very strongly supsect Yantor was sent up there to monitor the large number of NATO aircaft flying into and out of Prestwick in southern Scotland. They were transiting to / from eastern Euope for supporing the big NATO exercise

Accordingly – because the UK military leadership were simply not smart enough to have diverted those very many allied plane well away from Prestwick – and thus well away from this fhis AGI – this ship will have collected plenty of very-useful avaiation-related data.

(Big hint: Use another airfield !)

Furthermore, as you will well know from yur own experiences, the primary purpose of the Russian (ex Russian Empire) surface fleet has always been to provide support for for their primary weapon systems: their submarines

I very strongy suspect that the real hidden purpose of those very-provocative Russain manouvers were to distract the navy from what Mr Ed October was doing below the waves.

The real stroy if what went on last week will be below the waves

So, no surprse that 3 no RN submarines surged last week……

i.e. there must have been a “flap on”

(Note: I am bit disappinted that the editor of the very-well-known Navy Lookout website did not link the two stories)

Frankly, with my first post – and the statement made directly above – I was being quite deliberaely very provocative: to see what reaction I got…

So, just like the Russians did to UK PLC last week I got a reaction….

The final score on that game is:

Russian 3 ; UK 0

Three goals :

  • Monitored the RN anfd RAF reaction
  • Hoovered up plenty of avaition signals intel.
  • Distracted the RN surface fleet away from Mr Ed October

A hat-trick by the Russian’s: without needing any extra time.

———–

Next, you are quite correct that a far more robust approach is now needed. Frankly, we need to be doing to them what they always do to us when we go into their backyards

In my own very humble opinion, in this case the RN and RAF should have been instigating all three of the following reactions. (I correctly called them interceptions in my first post)

These three interceptions should have been coordinated to be one after another in the middle of dark night: ideally at about 3am in the morning.

All three of these intercepts should be done when operating under full EMCOM (so not emitting any radio, radar or AIS) and also not shoiwng any lights at all

………as is allowed by international law in international waters

In other words, we copy the modus operandi of their AGI

  1. Drive a large RFA, any Tide would be ideal, straight at the Yantor, with our skipper ignoring any channel 16 mesages – only to turn at the last minute (ideally to only avoid collision by a matter of a few yard). It is called good seamanship in the trade, followed by “Securite, securite, securite: I did not ***ing see you in the dark…”.
  2. Send an RAF Chnook around the ship, flying at a radius of say one-quarter to two miles out. Keep going until the fuel runs low. That is because the very annoying whoop-whoop-whoop gets ones teeth right on edge and also the partcular noise of the twin rotors make it impossible to locate the helicoptor(s) by sound alone. Thus, soon after their teeth are on edge, it will geting them wondering whether, or not, we will board…(nasty word: one might easily slip and hurt oneself in the wet deck! The Health and Safety officer will get upset!),
  3. Finally fly no fewer than four unarmed Thyphons out of RAF Valley (Hint: ideally situated!), on a quite routine night training exercise. In internatioal law, it is quitte legal to fly supersonicaally over international waters Then at 200 feet and Mach 1.2 – overfly the ship…………the one we did not know was there… .

And, finally, to finsh it all off nicely in cyberspace, post a tweet = on the platform now owned by The Donald’s new best mate – saying:

Very sorry Mr Putin: but how did we know your ship was there. Please tell you ships to turn their AIS on!

For all baby sailor, including those based deep underground at Northwood, this is how it used to be done properly. It was well before my time, but it is still a very good training film (from 1970)

Youtube “hms ark rotyal collides with soviet ship”

Imperial War Museum (IMW)

HMS ARK ROYAL IN COLLISION WITH RUSSIAN KOTLIN GUIDED MISSILE DESTROYER. NOVEMBER 1970, ON BOARD HMS ARK ROYAL, OFF CRETE, EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN WHEN SHE COLLIDED WITH A SHADOWING KOTLIN DESTROYER. SEVEN RUSSIAN SAILORS WERE THROWN OVERBOARD AS A RESULT OF THE COLLISION, FIVE WERE RECOVERED BY ROYAL NAVAL BOATS AND TWO WERE MISSING. ARK ROYAL WAS HOLED ABOVE THE WATER LINE IN THE COLLISION, BUT WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE IN THE JOINT NAVY-RAF SEA EXERCISE ‘LIME JUG’. | Imperial War Museums

However that game – playing by the letter, but not the spirit of the SOLAS collision regulations – was done back in the “good old days”

………in an long-forgotten era: when navy plates were square and cannnonballs were larger and when our Navy’s leadership had balls….

Oh, my god, I am allowed to say that in the 21st century?????

Too late: I just pressed send!

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS Essex Police

If you are reading this: sorry, for me not being very PC. I was born in the 20th century, an era of free speech.

PPS Duker

For the second time of me asking, can you please post the map of the big Russian Sea surrounded by Siberia. We are all waiting to see it

PPS Duker

And also one of the Chinese EEZ in the South China Sea ….as we are going there next year with our CVS. it will soon come in very useful

Supportive Bloke

Hurrrruuumm Peter

You were hinting at boarding!

I was pointing out that boarding anything isn’t easy, or if opposed a terribly good idea.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Supportive Bloke

Reread my first post very carefully

  1. I never hinted at boarding
  2. I had very carefully used the word interception

Interception can mean many different things to many different people.

Boarding is however a word that is far more precise and prescriptive.

  • and is, as you rightly say, very dangerous stuff

Thus your and David’s one key assumption (i.e jumping straight into the “wose case senario” by concluding that I meant “boarding”) is why I said the Ruisaisn ae better at playing this grey war game than the RN

In lawfare the exact meaning of words is very very important.

I said yesterday that this operation by the enemy surface fleet was to distract abd divert the RN away from th real underwater action

This morning, on MSN news, it was reoported the Lion internet / communications cable between Gernamy and Finland has been cut!

Regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS An example

  • according to Ukraine = it is a war.
  • according to Russia = it is a special militay operation

(I agree with Ukraine)

Eric

Those “research vessels” certainly do have armed agents on board. I have seen footage on TV in which particularly nasty looking people, armed with assault rifles, appear on deck when such a vessel is approached too closely. I think that makes boarding it a particularly bad idea.

Don

Rules are flexible in order to be able to react to these scenarios

Your rigid rule sticking is like pre rourkes drift or gallipoli prep

Eejit

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

“Rules are flexible in order to be able to react to these scenarios”

Don

As of today = your comment is simply not true

In the good old days, the RN’s rules of engagement were quite flexible: and so commanders out there on the “hot spot” had considerable leaway……..

However these days, any initative whatsoever by the “lower oders” is very actively discouraged by navy command

The over-use of SatcComs actively discurrages “thinking it through for oneself

Thus, nowdays, in these type of grey zone situations, it is always a case

  • “Phone home – to check with Mummy whether you can go out to play

Then, what happens next, is a message from Navy Command; telling the RN commader on the spot to avoid doing anything that might be provocative = usually for fear of a poor photo opportuity and/or a provocative tweet with arude emoji.

I agree 100% with you = the rules now need to be made far more flexible

Peter (IrateTxapayer)

PS you mispelt the word Emoji at the end of your post!

Mark P

A fisherman I know has trawled up all sorts of things from the English channel over the years. Maybe I should suggest he drops his net in the Irish sea, you never know he might find a Mimi sub? lol

Sean

Or they lose something deliberately?
It’s possible they could be pre-positioning things for possible future use/ activation.
Probably not, but still a thought…

Quentin D63

Hopefully this Russian ship was/is being monitored from below as well on its obvious “fishing trip”. Maybe time for some diesel subs/drones for coastal patrolling and some serious monitoring of sub sea infrastructure and some coastal patrol frigates, so the UK can also “send a message” to would be intruders and free up the main fleet for other duties?

Supportive Bloke

Absolutely.

It alway was a fear that remotely / timer detonated charges could be placed.

In ancient times it was North Sea infrastructure that was felt to be vulnerable and there was a lot of effort to train for it.

Lonpfrb

Nordstream 2 a prima face evidence of positioning Explosives for subsequent remote detonation, being much cheaper than honouring the supply contract which provides a get out on acts of war… (SMO)

Jonathan

What is interesting here is the fact Russia sent different groups through the straits at the same time but in different directions. Clearly pressuring and testing the RNs ability to respond. I suspect that the fact an RFA was used for the task will be noted.

Infact it really should be noted that the RFA took on this role as this highlights couple of key key issues

1) considering the importance of Northern European sealanes to our direct security the RN and the nation has very little patrol and monitoring capability. The rivers 2s have been sent across the globe because we don’t have adequate escorts but actually there is a job of work that needs doing in the Irish sea, eastern Atlantic, North Sea, channel and Norwegian sea..and 2000 ton patrol boats that could act as autonomous vessel mother ships as well as support boarding parties and monitoring enemy vessels ( and Russia is our enemy) and needed in our region.The RN needs to get its escort numbers back up so it can project and protect our interests in other regions and develop a decent level local regional patrol capability.

2) The RFA more and more are taking on front line Naval roles, infact a lot of their platforms are now essentially front line naval platforms. The RFA was set up to provide logistics..moving stuff from A to B. But they now operate 100% of our nation’s available amphibious capacity as well as patrol and monitoring vessels, these are naval activities and its a bit of an issue because international law treats commissioned warships and auxiliaries differently and this is a big problem. Under the international rules of law an auxiliary is not legally allowed to undertake a belligerent act, but it may be legally attacked and only then if directly attacked may it use its weapons to defend itself. This is not really an issue for logistics vessel..carrying something from A to B but when our amphibious vessels are now classed as auxiliaries or we have patrol vessels that we may wish to locate detect and maybe destroy autonomous vessels that becomes a problem.

So does the RFA need to be moved back to focusing on logistics and only have the purely logistical vessels, so losing the new sub surface monitoring and patrol vessels as well as the bays and argus..because in reality what are they going to do when they bays, Albions and Argus are replaced by MRSS..at some point the question over that fact that the RFA and navy are massively overlapping will come to a head and it will be around the MRSS..will we have some run by the RFA and some commissioned warships..so two of our MRSS that can undertake belligerent operations ( attack ) and four that legally have to wait for someone to shot at them before they can shot back.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
John

Who writes this? “auxiliary Tanker to escort Russian warships is unusual to say the least”. With first hand experience of the auxiliary Tanker going up to the arctic circle shadowing and handing over to Scandinavian navy whilst RN warships sit in port is very usual to say the least.