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The Whale Island Zookeeper

Back in the early days of Polaris the RN wanted 5 R-boats to guarantee the availability of 1.

For the work they do 4 is plainly not enough. And beyond this the growing shortage of escorts, SSN’s, and MCM afloat to ‘defend’ Faslane is not looking too good either.

Supposedly CASD is the bedrock of our defence. It is starting to look as threadbare as the rest of the defence estate.

Nothing will be done. The RN will limp along in prayer and hope that no disaster ** befalls a V-boat or even worse there is a real need to use one of these devices.

** Heck we don’t even field a submarine rescue vessel for the North Atlantic.
comment image

Last edited 1 year ago by The Whale Island Zookeeper
Mikeytee

Totally agree, most of todays defence issues and problems go right back to 2010 with the spending and precurement process being kicked into the long grass by Cameron and leaving the shrunken armed forces under-funded, over worked with out of date equipment.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

It goes back further to the end of the Cold War and that most mysterious of financial windfalls the ‘Peace Dividend’.

Duker

At 1998 the Defence share of GDP was around 2.6% . Not much peace dividend from end of cold war unless you count 1994 figure of 2.2% but rose after that

Theres the Tory austerity dividend from 2010 (2.5%) to 2018 (2.1%)

The real drop came from the mid 80s when it was 4.9% but that was well before the end of the cold war.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/298527/defense-spending-as-share-of-gdp-united-kingdom-uk/

ATH

What’s this if it isn’t a submarine rescue vessel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Submarine_Rescue_System

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Well I tell you what it isn’t shall I? It’s not a 5300 tonne ship sitting alongside the wall at Faslane.

ATH

Why would you want a big ship in one place over a mobile system the odds on can get to a casualty quicker? Do the USN have an air mobile system or a big slow ship?

Sean

The Submarine Rescue System is a NATO asset. Some people have issues with NATO, despite it successfully defending us all through the Cold War, and eventually winning it.

Jonathan

Not sure why anyone in the west would have issues with NATO…It most definitely has been the most successful deterrent in history….most people forget it was the documented aim of the Soviet Union to destroy capitalism by force…it was not just a this may happen due to tensions or an error…it was their avowed aim…only NATO ( and nuclear weapons) prevented that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jonathan
Sean

I agree it’s nuts to have issues with NATO… but then people also believe that the pandemic was fake, that climate-change is fake, that the moon landings are fake, that the earth is flat, etc…

It’s a sad fact a small percentage of the population are detached from reality.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sean
Supportive Bloke

That is the whole point?

The system can be flown rapidly to close to where it is needed.

And then just decked on a suitable commercial/naval vessel.

stephen ball

The system is good don’t even think the Americans have a 72-man recompression facility and TUP.

Might want too watch this video, very informative. Yes a lot of working parts go into a rescue.
NATO Submarine Rescue Service Oct19 – YouTube

Jon

Nobody mentioning the recent deal of a British company to build a 50 crew capacity submarine rescue system for Indonesia? I think it’s worth a shout out. Announced at DSEI about ten days ago. We should be happy that we still have that kind of expertise in this country, and haven’t even sold the company to foreigners yet.

Duker

Thanks for that . This is the sort of SRV used .

srvf-web[1].jpg
Caribbean

I thought SD Northern River was the designated vessel for the submarine rescue system

Duker

Good catch. RNs designated ocean support vessel
Her duties involve target towing during naval training exercises, transport of naval equipment, noise ranging and data gathering, as well as serving as a submarine escort. SD Northern River can embark the NATO Submarine Rescue System

Jai

If we lost one of those boats, the submariners wouldn’t be the only ones with a very big problem..

distress.jpg
Jonathan

The thing is actually using them means they have failed….using one of these probably means the end of humanity…their job is not to be used but to simply exist.

NewerX

Don’t worry, your lover Mr. Putin still has some more.

Byzantine

What is that supposed to mean?

Is there no moderator on this site?

Paul

Cameron ‘saving’ £750m on the defence of the realm whilst still sending (wasting) billions in overseas aid, utter recklessness and stupidity!

Martin

And now this bloody man has come back on the foreign policy front & made a life time Peer too! Words fail me …

Rob Cameron

How about having a discussion regarding the need or merit of CASD in the world today? The Soviet Union collapsed 30 years ago and so went the Warsaw Pact. Does the UK need CASD? If so, why? What is the possibility of an unexpected first strike from Russia or China? Wouldn’t there be a build up of tension where a short notice boat could quietly slip away on patrol. Could we do with the current 4 boat strategy with a reduced tempo and have non-overlapping patrols. Still a credible defence with a boat at sea most of the time but not the strain of CASD? It’s should be discussed rationally so, please don’t shout at me keyboard warriors!

Barbie

How about a discussion on the UK economic performance? Wealthy countries can afford to spend more than less wealthy countries.
I am sure that Argentina would like to buy a few jet fighter squadrons and half a dozen submarines if they can afford it.
What now Global Britain?

Rob Cameron

@Barbie, I don’t really understand your point. This is about nuclear deterrence. The UK is a G7 country. What’s Argentina got to do withbthis discussion? Completely unrelated, it looks like the Yanks might sell Argentina F16s.

Ken

Is the economy that wins wars.

Is China in G7? Is Korea in G7? or is India in G7?
They have bigger economies, they can afford bigger spending, bigger Navies.

Go and ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Duker

Apart from China UK has a bigger economy than Korea and is only slightly behind India ( World Bank and UN numbers)

Jonathan

Ummm well the size of the UK and Indian economy is around the same..and South Korea actually has a relatively small economy even behind Russia…..the Uk bounces around the 5-6 largest economy in the world South Korea is the 12th

Capt. Fung

And yet South Korea managed to have a bigger Navy than the UK

  • 80 combatant ships (13 destroyers, 17 frigates, etc)
  • 17 amphibious warfare ships
  • 13 mine warfare ships
  • 22 auxiliary ships
  • 20 submarines
ATH

And the next door neighbour from hell!

Sid

Like in Moss Side?

Theoden

Top 10 Most Powerful Navies in the World (by total tonnage – 2014):

  1. United States – 3,415,893
  2. Russia – 845,739
  3. China – 708,886
  4. Japan – 413,800
  5. United Kingdom – 367,850
  6. France – 319,195
  7. India – 317,725
  8. South Korea – 178,710
  9. Italy – 173,549
  10. Taiwan – 151,662
Norman

2014? what about in 2023?

Theoden

That was the latest data for top 10 navies I could find.
In relation to UK and S.Korea 2023
ROKN 223,285 Tonnes
RN 422,400 Tonnes

AlexS

GDP percapita PPP x population = total GDP PPP

South Korea $45000 x 51 million persons = 2295

UK $46000 x 66 million persons = 3036

Last edited 1 year ago by AlexS
Maccabeo

South Korea has a 300km/h high-speed train network in operation since 2004 and is expanding.

How many miles of 300km/h high-speed train network in UK?

Duker

So what. ROK a little bit bigger in land area than Scotland but has 52 mill people, far more densely populated due to mountainous terrain then England with 56 mill.

Leo Montgomery

And yes, HS2 will never reach Manchester let alone Scotland.
Keep on dreaming.

Ken

yeah G7 my foot

Duker

G7 is a core group plus invitees
The G10 included Belgium and Netherlands for historical reasons, lend money to IMF
The G7 includes Canada but not China India or S Korea

Roy

I think the argument that CASD is less essential was more valid twenty years ago when Russia and China were not immediate threats. Today the world is undergoing significant change and the threat environment is growing.

Where Russia still has significant strength is in her strategic and tactical nuclear forces. Russian tactical nuclear use in Ukraine is a credible scenario. So too is a scenario of potential escalation in that context. In this sense one can make a case that the UK deterrent is now quite important. The question as to whether the Americans would contemplate nuclear use in such a scenario – thereby risking themselves – is a very active one and that further emphasizes the importance of the UK (and French) deterrent.

All that to say, I would think that CASD is more important and it exposes the utter shortsightedness of the defence reviews of the recent past.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Russian tactical nuclear use in Ukraine is a credible scenario.

No it is not. Tactical or battle field nuclear weapons are about attacking concentrated masses of armour and material. Something the Ukrainians do not have.

Roy

There masses of armour and material at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Sean

Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defence of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications centre, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops.

Nagasaki was a major ordnance production centre, it was also the centre of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries shipbuilding.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sean
Duker

Kokura was the selected 2nd city for a bomb, weather reasons meant the backup target Nagasaki ,about 100 miles away, was chosen after a short stint over Kokura

Sean

Yes we all know that, but the backups were chosen for the same reason as the primary targets. They didn’t just randomly pick the secondaries.

naes

Yes we all know that

Sean

I seriously doubt that from some of the factually incorrect comments posted on here. It’s almost as though people haven’t heard of “Google”.

Roy

Sure … in other words, anything can be a target if the user chooses to make it a target. You simply list everything that was there justifying your use … after you use it.

Sean

You think that the Americans, facing an invasion of the Japanese mainland that was forecast to result in millions of casualties, would choose targets that were not militarily significant? That they would waste the only two atomic bombs they had on militarily insignificant targets?…

Your comment is both crass and stupid.

ACNS

No need to be patronizing.

Duker

There was the parts for a 3rd bomb at Tinian, nicknamed Fat Boy probably for Kokura and certainly they had plans for more bombings ( up to 12 ?) if needed plus the invasion.

Sean

They had the parts for a fourth*, including a core, but insufficient plutonium to manufacture one. Essentially they bluffed Japan.
(1 used for Trinity, 2 on Japan)

Duker

The history says they didnt think that Japan would surrender after only 2 and could have kept going at bombing but a slower pace. Truman stopped the plans for dropping the 3rd – as by then the surrender was under way
The Manhattan project was a bomb making system, and the production of bombs continued – even after the occupation began – for strategic reasons at 2-3 every 3 months

Sean

They didn’t have a 4th one (you keep overlooking the one used for the Trinity test) to drop. The surrender occurred before they had the resources available to assemble a 4th.

You’re actually correct in that when they had the resources (post surrender) they continued construction of more bombs. The Cold War was already in sight…

Jonathan

Russia is unlikely to use tactical nuclear weapons in any scenario other than a very significant immediate threat or attack on its own boarders…Putin knows the escalation tree better than most as it’s a Russian invention…they are not going to step near something that could trigger a strategic response.

Roy

Until they do …

James

Hello Rob, this is me speaking softly. A discussion is always good and listening to others ideas is a must. But. The New Soviet Russia is back and far more aggressive then the USSR. It retains a massive nuclear arsenal. The Chinese have embarked on a massive spying programme, preparing for a war in which they aim to neuter western forces. The balloon fiasco was the Chinese verifying first strike targets in America. I feel that the CASD is more important than its been since the 1960’s. I feel as if we are totally unprepared to defend our nation.

Duker

Really . How come Britain massively increased its defence spending after the invasion of far away South Korea in 1950.
Much closer invasion of Ukraine in 2022 has led to what increase in Defence spending for Britain.
1951-52 spending was £1.490 mill an increase of £690 mill over the previous year roughly 85% increase
https://www.icaew.com/insights/insights-specials/the-future-of-tax-and-public-spending/graphic-70-years-of-public-spending

DaveyB

To be brutally honest, I believe most politicians don’t fully understand the ramifications of the War in Ukraine and its possible outcomes. They probably think that, if we keep Ukraine well supplied and in the fight, then a continental war is averted and we can sleep happily in our beds at night.

How easily things could have changed. If Russian forces were more prepared, hadn’t suffered from massive corruption and actually taken Ukraine seriously. Perhaps those first 6 months may have ended differently. To say they squandered their significant advantage and opportunity, is perhaps the understatement of the Century.

I would hazard a guess, that if Ukraine was either not doing so well following last year’s counter-offensive or were facing defeat. Then we would have seen a massive spending uptake in our Armed Forces. Along with a call to the flag and uptake of reservists.

Jonathan

The problem is It leaves open the temptation of a counter force first strike against us..and Russia still has a hell of a lot of nuclear weapons.

You have to remember the nuclear arsenal is not really a weapon of war..if it’s was ever used we would all be dead and our nation dust..it’s only any good as deterrent and if it’s susceptible to counter force then it’s not a deterrent, it’s an encouragement to first strike.

Its why there is never a gap in patrol..the moment you have a gap you open yourself to a counter force stike…

Jon

Given that Putin’s advisors threatened to nuke London last year and Russia’s new nuclear ICBMs were put on combat duty earlier this month, perhaps you could explain what level you think the tension needs to build to before we should field CASD?

Your system doesn’t seem to cater for continuous periods of high tension. We still need to be able to field CASD on such occasions, possibly over a number of years. So we need to pay for it and crew it, as you can’t train submariners in a few months. And test it to make sure we can do it. So that’s pretty much what we have now. The only difference is that when the tension drops, we don’t lose the ability through neglect.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jon
Sean

Am amazed you are so cowered by the comedic threats of Putin’s advisors. If London was nuked, we would nuke Moscow, game over, and everyone knows that.

Jon

Rob was questioning whether the continuous deterrent needed to be continuous. Perhaps I should just have answered, what if they nuked Faslane?

Roy

The principal reason that one has a British deterrent is to try to prevent any nuclear attacks on the UK. The UK deterrent is too small to do much else. But it means that even if nuclear weapons are used in other parts of Europe, there is a chance that such attacks on the UK itself may be deterred. That is why you have a national deterrent.

As for Russian tactical nuclear use in Ukraine, it matters nothing at all whether WE believe Russian tactical nuclear use would be reasonable or likely, or not likely. What matters is what do the Russians (or Putin believe)? That is the great unknown. But if one listens to recent Russian statements or reads Russian nuclear doctrine, it has to at least be regarded as within the realm of possibility.

Sean

Indeed, we know from published invasion plans from the Cold War era, that while the Russians were prepared to use nuclear weapons in continental Europe, they would specifically avoid using them against the U.K. specifically because of our CASD.

Sean

And it was you who brought up comedic Russian threats about nuking London.

If they nuked Faslane then we would probably nuke Gadzhiyevo, Yagelnaya Bay in a like-for-like destruction of the Northern Fleets SSBN base.

Supportive Bloke

But there is a serious risk we might hit the cities we targeted?

There is a high risk the Russians would either:-

– blow up their own silo on launch; or
– nuke the Atlantic ocean

given their weapons have poor country specific accuracy levels.

I’m only slight joking.

If a nuc launch messed up Mad Vlad would be finished. He knows that. If one was intercepted: he would be a busted flush.

He knows he can’t launch: for those reasons alone.

Most of their nuc fleet is very, very old and we can be sure that most of the modernisation budget has been stolen!

Last edited 1 year ago by Supportive Bloke
Sean

Not to mention would his military even launch, if Putin did give the order? Knowing the true situation with Ukraine better than the civilian population they would know it would be an act in defence of Putin than one in defence of Russia. It might be the line the Russian military refuses to cross.
But yes, given the fortune America is spending $750bn over the next decade to renew its nuclear forces you have to wonder what state the Russian forces are in. Though the Russians replace theirs on a more frequent interval whereas the Americans prefer a longer replacement cycle with a greater emphasis on maintenance.

Jon

If we didn’t have a sub at sea (which is Rob’s premise, not mine), and they nuked Faslane, how would we nuke anything? We’d have no delivery mechanism.

Sean

But we do have one at sea, has been the case for over 50 years with CASD.
The only person arguing against it is Rob (and Putin probably).

Rob is probably right in that there would be a deterioration in relations, and then conventional warfare first. But nobody can rule out a sneak pre-emptive attack, either nuclear or with conventional weapons, to destroy Faslane before the subs could put to sea.
Which is we’ll always have CASD for as long as we retain nuclear weapons.

DaveyB

We would likely have three options.

The first would be to beg the US for a few B61s. Which would then under a rapid UOR be integrated with Typhoon or F35B. They would not loan us a Boomer with a load of Tridents.

The second would be to ask France to loan us some weapons. They most definitely would not loan us one of their boomers or loan us a few ASMP-A cruise missiles. We are friends, but not that kind of a friend.

The third and most likely option is something home grown. We have the atomics weapons establishment (AWE). They are responsible for designing the current warheads used by our Tridents. We stupidly scrapped out WE.177 gravity bombs. But the knowledge of building such devices would be relatively easy for AWE. Such a warhead would easily fit in the space normally used by the Storm Shadow’s BROACH warhead.

This would give Typhoon a reasonable stand-off distance, where it can fire off two missiles. It would all depend on the the amount of damage the nuclear attack on the UK achieved. Plus the will to seek out retribution.

Supportive Bloke

Agree

DaveyB

There are a number of problems of operating a CASD at reduced tempo.

The first is that you have at any one time all your boats alongside a pier, which is visible by satellite be that commercial or military. The resolution on commercial satellites today though not on par with military ones. Still provides decent resolution to determine if the boat is undergoing maintenance etc.

This means if you have a leader of a Country, who has a nasty disposition to the UK and is willing to do something about it. Having all your boats alongside is no longer a deterrent to their aggression, it is inviting trouble!

It also means that the boat will be at reduced readiness with perhaps only a skeleton crew aboard. Therefore, if the boat needs to sail quickly, it will not only take time to get all the crew and perhaps provisions aboard. But via satellite they can tell when the boat leaves.

But perhaps the worse factor is that as all your boats are alongside. It makes them an easy target for a pre-emptive strike, espionage or direct special forces action to take out the boats.

By having a CASD, it means there’s always the “where is it ” factor, that numpties like Putin have to take into account.

TEFSutherland

If the situation really got desperate in light of the unbearable strain being put on a four-boat force, could an Astute class submarine be equipped with nuclear war head cruise missiles as a back up? I realise this would be considerably less of a deterrent given the much greater likelihood of any such missile being intercepted and destroyed. I think cruise missile-equipped subs was an option that was discussed at the time of the coalition government (2010-15). But at least it would enable a continuous at sea deterrent to be maintained, even if a considerably less effective one. I appreciate this may be totally impractical as I have absolutely no expertise whatsoever, but perhaps those better qualified might like to express an opinion.

ATH

You could do it, but not quickly. The U.K. would need to design or resurrect a warhead and then build it. It would also need to design and build a long range submarine launched cruise missile. Nether of these things would be quick or cheap. This is before the question of how effective the system would be.

Supportive Bloke

Storm Shadow has a nuclear twin in French service?

Typhoon isn’t nuclear cleared.

ATH

Are you sure?

The only air launched nuclear cruise missile the French have in service that I’ve know of is the ASPM which is a totally separate system to Storm Shadow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-sol_moyenne_portée

Sean

SCALP (Storm Shadow in French service) does not have a nuclear warhead option.

Supportive Bloke

I phrased that very badly.

A French nuclear derivative was planned and designed. It was supposed to have been the analogue of the US nuclear cruise missiles.

The ground work was done.

The end of the Cold War killed that sub program.

Roy

The French have the ASMPA-R stand-off air-launched nuclear missile.

AlexS

French always have had nuclear bomb and from 80’s nuclear air launched missile ASMP. This missile is also available for the aeronavale aircraft starting with Super Etendard now the mission is on navalised Rafale with new missiles ASMPA. Said missiles ware and are also operational with air force.

Last edited 1 year ago by AlexS
Peter S

Would we? Our SSNs can launch Tomahawks, one version of which was nuclear tipped. Negotiated away in disarmament agreements with USSR, which USA accuses Russia of breaching.
The danger is that this would mean any cruise missile launch might be nuclear armed and trigger full scale retaliation., Russia has said as much.
But the deterrent has to remain credible or it is worthless and I wonder if a single boat on patrol is.

ATH

A single U.K. boat on patrol has been standard since the 60’s.

Duker

For 3 months

Deep32

Historically its always been between 2-4 months, but over the last decade or so has averaged out at around 3 months. The need for longer patrols usually came when we transitioned from one class to another, ie R boats to V boats, as we tended to keep the older class running for too long a time before getting the new class into service. Much like now in fact. One wonders why we just dont learn from past errors!

Annon

Not always at sea though, some patrols have been done from alongside the warf.. fact. And on more than one occasion

Deep32

Really, thats interesting, given that you can’t/wouldn’t launch a missile while on the surface. I will let you figure out why not!

Duker

Thats in peacetime as the damage would require the tube to be rebuilt ?

First, the Trident II is ejected by steam. A tiny amount of solid rocket fuel is ignited, flash boiling water in a tank, which literally pushes the missile out of the launch tube with enough force to cause the missile to completely break the water’s surface. When the missile exits, onboard sensors detected the lost momentum by gravity, igniting the first stage rocket motor.”

A form of cold launch like the Sea ceptor uses

The Russians certainly can do so.

Deep32

There is a reason we don’t launch from the surface, the water effectively forms a barrier between the rocket discharge and the boat. If it wasn’t there, it wouldn’t just damage the tube, but likely burn through the bottom of the SM!

Duker

Not at all .. Its hot steam ‘impulse’ which pushes the missile well clear and only then when its above the water surface does the rockets fire. The same can happen on the surface but if its actually a nuclear war does some deck damage matter ?

I feel the ‘only underwater’ is a political thing to keep the Scots quiet

Supportive Bloke

This is an ICBM not a 300kg AAW missile.

The thermal effects are at a different order of magnitude.

There is also the tiny issue of the turning moment that the rockets thrust reaction causes.

In a normal launch Trident is free from the sub in the bubble and is then accelerated out of the water. The rockets initial reaction is water and not submarine.

With a rocket that big any tiny non linearity in the thrust could well turn the sub over: if it was surfaced. Never mind as @Deep32 says burning through it.

Yoigor

Could you explain the “tiny non linearity in the thrust could well turn the sub over” more?
Any proof?

Supportive Bloke

The missile tubes are not down the centre line of the sub – they were in the early surface launching ICBM Soviet subs with three missiles……

If the launch is significantly off beam it creates a rotational, lever arm, moment……

As ICBMs are big and need to accelerate fast this us a very big moment….there is a huge reactive force.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Some bloke called Newton said that.

Duker

The missile doesnt fire till above water , which means the current hot steam system can eject it maybe 50- 100 ft above the hatch.
Watch it on video as it breaks the surface ..then ignites
https://youtu.be/1aPvGGvnAGQ

All this offcentre impulse stuff is blather

Last edited 1 year ago by Duker
Deep32

No it cant eject the missile that high if it isnt in the water, the thing weighs about 67 tonnes, your hot steam system isnt capable of anything close to that.
We practise simulated launches whilst on patrol, getting into the launch envelope as it were, depth is not that deep, the rocket motor ignites as the missile starts to leave the water. If there was no water to act as a barrier, goodbye SSBN.
They pump millions of gallons of water into the launch pad when launching rockets (NASA) from the Cape, for exactly the same reason.

superficial shallow 32

BBC Trident missile factfile

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4438392.stm

At launch, the pressure of expanding gas in the tube forces the missile out and to the ocean surface where, once it is far enough from the submarine, the solid fuel in the first of three stage motors ignites.

Last edited 1 year ago by superficial shallow 32
Duker

The hot steam ALREADY ejects the missile a considerable distance above the hatches even underwater.
What changes in the on the surface scenario. remember you are talking about test launches , not real war where there will be Faslane to return too.

DaveyB

Not if the missile is launched by the boat above water at sea level, SB is quite correct in this matter. Bearing in mind that the Trident’s 1st stage is the most powerful, as it has to lift pretty much the full weight of the missile, whilst accelerating it through the densest air. Initially at ignition, the rocket exhaust will be pushing against the bottom of the launch tube. This will cause a reaction to the lever arm, i.e. the distance from the boat’s centre to the middle of the launch tube.

Will it be enough to roll the boat over, I don’t know? As I don’t know the specific impulse power of Trident’s first stage. But as a Trident D5 weighs 59,000kg and must produce a greater than 1:1 power to weight ratio (PWR) to lift off and accelerate. The D5 uses a larger and more powerful 1st stage than the previous C4 version. When watching a video of its launch from when the missile has broached the sea’s surface. I’d say the missile has a better than 1.5 to 2 PWR, as after 60 seconds or so, the missile is traveling at Mach 5+. So if its producing 88,500 to 118,000kg or more of thrust, then I’d say there is a good chance. Especially if more than one is fired.

Duker

I know how the current test launch system works , thats whats the youtube is for
Forget igniting in the tube . That can never happen. The missile is pushed well clear of the boat deck whether under water or not.

Without the weight of water above, the missile should be able to pushed even higher into the air by the steam ejection system when alongside the wharf
Why keep repeating the rocket motor is fired in the tube ?

Supportive Bloke

There is also the issue of the sail and planes being out of the water so the resistance to rotational moment is vastly reduced surfaces relative to submerged.

Supportive Bloke

If we accept what is on Wiki at face value.

After 120s the missile is travelling at 6000m/s.

Assuming that at t=0 velocity is 0m/s and at T=120s velocity is 6000m/s and it is linear.

That is then a rate of acceleration of 50m/s2.

If we assume that the missile weights 65,000kg

F = m x a

This suggests a force of 3,250,000N – which is really rather a lot.

So if you reverse that calculation – for the submarine

Assuming the submarine weights 17,000,000kg

F/m = a

Meaning that with that level of force the *whole* submarine would accelerate at 0.19m/s2. That ignores taking it as a rotational force.

In order to convert that rotation you would need to know the metacentric(s) of the submarine – which we clearly do not.

I’d respectfully suggest that if you impart that level of rotational force and resultant rotational rate onto a surfaced submarine it won’t be the right way up for long.

Hersberger

Very impressive your elementary physics but totally irrelevant.

The point of missile motor ignition is above the water surface well past the point where the missile was ejected out of the sub, 50 meters underwater,

Supportive Bloke

@Hersberger – the point I was trying to make – as simply as I could – was that there were very, very significant forces.

I totally agree that Trident IRL fires above a protective layer of water.

In reality the D5 1st stage doesn’t fire until it detects reversed velocity. So the first impulse is even bigger.

This is, purely, a repossess to the nitwits who think that Trident can be launched from a surfaced sub or one on the dock wall.

So yes, very, very basic school physics. But basic school physics shows why it is a bad idea at ‘thought experiment’ level without getting sucked into abstract arguments.

Looking at something in the simplest available terms isn’t a silly discipline as it is easy to get lost in pages of intricate calcs. Even when something is in advanced development, looking at the concept in a reductionist manner is still a useful discipline.

Sud Aviation

Did you make this all up?

The Physics of a Launch– Made by Lockheed Martin, the current Trident II D-5 missile is a squat, blunt-nosed, 44-foot-long cylinder weighing nearly 120,000 pounds. It’s fired by a steam cannon. First, an explosive charge flash-vaporizes a tank of water into steam. As the pressure of the expanding steam drives the missile out of its launch tube, it provides enough momentum for the weapon to clear the water’s surface. This cocktail of high pressure and dangerous explosives is a crucial phase of every launch. Multiple safety mechanisms are in place to deactivate the missile if it fails to get away from the sub.

The missile slows down as it leaves the water and gravity tries to pull it back down. Motion sensors monitor the changes as the missiles hang in the air for a brief moment before the first of three rocket stages ignites.

If all goes well, though, the first stage rocket burns for 65 seconds. During this phase, the missile extends an aerodynamic spike to smooth the airflow over the blunt-nosed cylinder. Without this spike, the missile can’t survive its brief, high-speed transit through the atmosphere.

Duker

Yes.
Its totally unlike submarine torpedoes, but they too have a compressed air launch which works under water or similar for launch from deck tubes of warship.

Supportive Bloke

What I was criticising was the fantasy that a missile could be launched from a surface sub.

Newton's third laws

Did you pass your O-level Maths?

55 tons Trident D5 ejecting out of a 17,000 tons SSBN sub.

Some action, some opposite reaction

Supportive Bloke

Thnx I have a science PhD – the issue is the acceleration – it isn’t accelerated to 1 m/s is it? It goes to M5??

So there is really rather a lot of energy involved.

It isn’t 55,000kg of thrust…..

The point is that it is popped out of the tube and then it accelerates against the cooling barrier of the water to protect the sub from the thermal effects.

Duker

That may be an issue , but if its war its not a reusable system

Sometimes the impossible can happen with a bit of tweaking

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Du Perron

What Ph.D. thesis and which institution? PhD degree in Fashion Design the way you make things up.

Acceleration to M5 is when the rocket ignites above water, sunny.

Supportive Bloke

Yes – the main stage is designed to ignite above the water. I stated that.

Once it has been accelerated upwards by buoyant action and the steam impulse whilst in an air bubble. So that it is filled ejected clear from the water by those effects.

The main stage then fires when it has cleared the water.

The fantasy, that I and DaveyB were anttacking above, was that the ballistic missile launches while the sub is surfaced. And that somehow steam alone can pop a 65,000kg missile out if it’s tube high enough, when surfaced, that it can fire without destroying the submarine and all in her.

Wigtownshire

What is the “non-linearity” part during the launch?

Supportive Bloke

Acceleration is unlikely to be linear in real life.

Paulo Wombat

And patrols were only 56 days long. From a Repulse plank owner

Sean

Not true. The USN retired its remaining 260 TLAM/Ns unilaterally under the Obama administration- decades after the USSR had ceased to exist. Same is true for the USNs other nuclear non-strategic weapons, SUBROC, ASROC, and Terrier – all retired unilaterally and not as part of any treaty negotiations.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sean
Peter S

Yep, I had forgotten that the USN kept nuclear versions until 2010. Theoretically, that strengthens my point that developing such a capability for the UK might not be too difficult. But with so few SSNs available and more than enough for them to cover in their other roles, it probably wouldn’t help much.

Quicksilver

Have you ever heard of RAF Greenham Common and RAF Molesworth?

RAF Greenham Common was selected as one of two British bases for the USAF’s mobile nuclear armed BGM-109G Gryphon Ground Launched Cruise Missile (GLCM). This missile was derived from the sea-launched Tomahawk Land Attack Missile. Some missiles were deployed at RAF Molesworth, but the majority of GLCMs were deployed at RAF Greenham Common

Greenham_Common_GAMA_missile_shelters (1).jpg
Duker

Nuclear armed ship/sub launched Tomahawks werent negotiated away.
That was the land based version only.
US also breached the INF treaty mentioned which covered land based medium range nuclear and non nuclear missiles/ drones ( non nuclear was included as cant tell the difference)

https://fas.org/publication/tomahawk/
2013:US Navy Instruction Confirms Retirement Of Nuclear Tomahawk Cruise Missile
Earlier it also removed nuclear Asroc
Carriers also stopped having nuclear weapons on board for its strike jets

Last edited 1 year ago by Duker
Peter S

They were in fact removed from active service in 1991, about the same time as the longer ranged land based version was deleted as part of the treaty. Kept in reserve but never deployed again and scrapped after 2010.

Duker

Not at all. The INF treaty required the land launched version to be destroyed, not kept in reserve, and that happened ahead of the 1991 changes
The Treaty was signed in 1987 The treaty did not apply to air- or sea-launched missiles
Any withdrawal from ships in 1991 was because of end of Cold War and the evidence is they remained in Navy storage till 2013

Peter S

I meant,I thought it was clear,that the sea launched nuclear armed Tomahawks were removed to reserve in 1991 around the same time as the treaty eliminated land based versions. Land based versions were either scrapped or converted to conventional warheads. I understand that confirmation of the non deployment of sea ofbased missiles was regularly supplied to Russia.

Supportive Bloke

Nuclear cruise missiles are a really bad idea anyway.

The other side gets fidgety every time a cruise missile is launched……Greg options for miscalculation are massive.

Duker

Very good point. A massed intercontinental ballistic missile launch is a significant event which is detected by both sides as it happens

The Whale Island Zookeeper

I think cruise missiles aren’t optimal. Easy prey for a modern AA system.

The Israelis are looking to do this with their next submarines.

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It would be a huge undertaking for the UK. And probably getting beyond our means to do such.

Jonathan

The big issue with it is there is to much uncertainty with it…let’s say Russia is aware we have a deterrent that includes an element of nuclear tipped cruise missiles, which we would need to tell the world..as a deterrent is only a deterrent if you tell everyone about it…this means that the west using any sub launched cruise missiles would potentially be a nuclear first strike….that means we either stop using sub launches conventional cruise missiles ( we don’t want that as they are very useful) or risk triggering a nuclear missunderstanding.

The other issue is that cruise missiles have limited range so the sub would need to be in a defined area to hit Moscow ( you have to be able to hit Moscow if it’s a worthwhile deterrent)…also cruise missiles can be defeated by air defence systems…multiples of 10s of Mirvs from an icbm range missile is impossible to stop…even the 100+ billion the U.S. has spent on its ground based interceptor system can only stop couple of warheads.

TEFSutherland

Thanks for the explanation. I see now why it’s a non-starter.

Daniel

HMS Vanguard has yet to complete DASO, and HMS Victorious is in major refit at Devonport. It should come as no surprise that HMS Vigilant had to do such a long patrol when only one other boat is available to relieve it.

Mrs R Sager

What happened to HMS Sovereign my late son was on this sub.

Andrew Deacon

At Devonport pending dismantling

The Whale Island Zookeeper

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G H T

On the topic of improving retention of our submariners conducting these long patrols, I feel compelled to correct you that submariners earn no additional leave for being at sea. They earn 1 additional sea goers leave day for every 30 days assigned to a seagoing unit (the same as their surface counterparts). Submarine crews frequently cannot take this additional leave (owing to both staffing and workload issues) and many have outstanding leave balances of more than 100 days. Compare this with other service personnel conducting an Op Tour in the likes of Bahrain or Estonia who earn 1 day Post Op Tour Leave (POTL) for every 9 days spent in a much more pleasant environment. Parity (at least) with POTL should surely be allocated to submariners following these extended deployments. How else can they adequately “decompress”?

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Plus they are not all volunteers.

Chris

This is insane. Submarine service should be the highest, most compensated and most respected profession in the RN.

John

They were until the armed forces pay revue committee sold them down the river.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Off on a tangent Griffon have launched their new LCAC concept the Wyvern. All we need now is a fast LSD and 3Cdo restoring to 3 manoeuvre units……..
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Phill

I just cannot imagine what these military personnel have gone through. A familygram once a week the monotony of life. Possibly six on, six off. Hope the Government can deal with the long term consequences. They did not in my experience. I only did 10 week patrols on polaris.

Big shout out too all submariners.

Sjb1968

I totally agree and the ultimate problem is not the boats availability but retaining enough people and that is markedly deteriorating across the service. The people left cannot take the leave they accrue because they are needed for the next deployment and that is not sustainable. This happening across the entire RN/RM/RFA

The Whale Island Zookeeper

It is both.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

JMSDF submarine rescue ship JS Chiyoda
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Last edited 1 year ago by The Whale Island Zookeeper
Duker

Japan must have a limited operational area for its subs…. I guess being very close to Russia, North Korea and China makes that essential.
It would be like Britain having those nations where France, Ireland and Norway are

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Oh…………

Duker

Geography geography geography… many universities are dropping the subject as no one wants to take it …instead do tourism studies !

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Oh………..

Mark Tucker

We have seen a reduction is the number boats built in an effort to reduce the cost of booth he SSN and SSBN programs.

The part of the puzzle no body talks about is the fact this strategy assumes everything else works perfectly.

Had the Royal Navy built six Vanguard class boats, not only would the worst of the valley of death between the Vanguard and Astute been avoided, but the Royal Navy would had the option of retiring her instead of undertaking such an extensive refit. As the French Navy also found out recently, building only a minimum number of boats means you have no choice but to fix them when something inevitably does go wrong.

If the MOD is not prepared to fund CASD properly they should have moved to a land based strategic deterrent. While I understand the arguments in favour of a sea based strategic deterrent, it will always be the most expensive option.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

There is nowhere in the UK that can host these missiles in silos. And the island of Great Britain is too small.

Duker

Open farmland like the US. East Anglia is ideal…..been there done that

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The Whale Island Zookeeper

And we stopped doing it because East Anglia was too small, didn’t have the right geology, and submarine missile technology wasn’t mature.

Mark Tucker

The Strangest argument against ICBMs I have ever heard.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Well I am not going to argue.

Go look how big Montana is and compare it with how big the UK is……….

Go look at geology of Montana and compare it with the UK…………

And then think how many missiles we would require for redundancy.

It isn’t a strange argument really.

It is basic facts about the topic under discussion.

You haven’t really heard many arguments against ICBM’s have you?

The arrogant sneering here really brings the whole tone of the site down. It is one of the reasons why it is taken seriously.

Duker

Missile fields were more widespread than that . Just the nuclear missiles reduction treatys means those are the ones left.
There used to be a major missile field around Whiteman AFB in Kansas, others in California , Texas etc.
Geology ?
Its like people saying the Trident base has to be a deepwater location like Faslane, however Kings Bay Georgia is a tidal estuary which could similar to the estuaries around Barrow in Cumbria

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Well it is pointless discussing every ICBM the USAF operated to make a point when the one in Montana illustrates my point is there?

Yes geology. Don’t confuse missile base with an ICBM base.

You are arguing back to front with Faslane. Do you think the USN would rather operate from deep lochs surrounded by steep hills or Kings Bay?

I have never known anybody with reasoning that is a cockeyed as some of the stuff you come out with.

scapa flow

East Anglia 19,585 sq km vs Montana 380,800 sq km

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Plus East Anglia is wet.

Sean

Are you volunteering to have a missile silo next-door? I suspect it might affect your property resale value…

The Whale Island Zookeeper

And they would have to be everywhere. Well not everywhere because some places would be unsuitable. But Cheshire and Salisbury Plains and other flat pasture land above sea level so East Anglia no, Somerset Levels no. And nowhere too ‘lumpy’. Also all the metropolitan areas would be out. Montana is a larger than the UK and a lot emptier.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

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Last edited 1 year ago by The Whale Island Zookeeper
Mark Tucker

The US does not spread them out anywhere near as much as you make out. They might of done more back in the days of the cold war, but that was a long time ago, when things were done very differently. Today all Military bases combined in Montana make up a tiny percentage of the total land area of the state. Keep in mind Israel does it this way.

First I am not arguing that a Sea based strategic deterrent is not better, just that to do it that way costs ten times as much. A CASD policy that is not properly funded will eventually result in a part time deterrent. That is inevitable and the SSN force struggles as CASD abords all available resources. A Land based deterrent would be a viable alternative that does not destroy the Royal Navy in the process.

As for redundancy in CASD, there is none. All deployed missiles are in one boat. If a CASD that deploys just sixteen missiles and is due to do down to eight is enough, why would a land based deterrent need more missiles.

As for living next to one, so ok to live next to a facility that stores SLBM’s but not ICBM’s. OK to live next to decommissioned SSBN’s, but not an ICBM. OK to live next to a range of Nuclear facilities but not a few ICBM’s. Strange logic indeed.

Sean

Glad to see you’ve volunteered to be priority target by having a nuclear missile silo next door. I doubt your neighbours feel the same way though…

Mark Tucker

Depends on the choice, ICBM versus prison, I would pick the ICBM.

There are worst options to be sure.

Duker

And say Portsmouth or Faslane arent priority targets? What universe do you live in.

25 miles from centre of Glasgow to Faslane, which is nothing for a nuke radius of destruction

Actually some great ‘geology’ in the Teeside area , which has a new deep – ie 1600m – potash mine opening next year. 1600m is the bottom of the shafts , the ore skips bring the product only up to -360m where conveyer in a 37 km tunnel takes to Teeside

The Whale Island Zookeeper

If you dropped a 2.5mt weapon on Faslane Glasgow wouldn’t see much real harm.

Have a play with this………

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Duker

Then the missile silos cant be a problem in most places if 25 miles away is ‘not much of a problem’ only counting the airburst, radiation a different matter

Sean

I’m in a universe that understands the English language. At no point did I say that Faslane wasn’t a priority target and I didn’t mention Portsmouth at all.
Maybe you should take the time to read posts before commenting?

Duker

Thats because I did- read again where I suggested major bases are already targets , not just the hypothetical missile silos.

But you love straw arguments, red herrings and the ‘Gish Gallop’- usually all at once

The Whale Island Zookeeper

You haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Not one.

And then you start shifting your position by talking about CASD to deflect.

Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana covers nearly 14,000 square miles with its ICBM silos. Built on flat rolling well drained grass land. That is a square with sides approximately 120 miles long. The US operates another 2 bases of roughly the same size. If we say the UK’s need is just for one ICBM base for redundancy it would have to be as big. With CASD you hide a ‘small’ submarine in a lot of ocean to avoid the problem of being seen. And redundancy (in theory) comes from having more than one boat.

As for living next to door to a silo no it is a none starter. The MoD has enough problems with the public not wanting to live next to nuclear bases as it without scattering 150 plus silos through Cheshire and some other parts of the UK that may be suitable because most of the UK is not suitable.

I believe in your right to express your views. But you are so off from the facts, not my opinions the facts, that your view holds no merit.

Huddersfield

The safest place to live till nuclear war and where is a safe place in a nuclear war?

Sean

Not particularly safe, I can’t image MOD Police will neglect their duties to apprehend someone burgling your home. Not to mention all the noisy smelly CND protestors you’d have to deal with.

Engawila

Lovely jubbly all those smelly CND and I like noise

Moorfields

Where can I find such a property? I like one.

Esteban

It’s really difficult to take people seriously as far as nuclear deterrence goes if they aren’t even trying to do it themselves. Missiles warheads submarines and if it’s just too damn dangerous, perhaps they should just sit there and hide.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

True. You can’t treat as a real situation at all. It is too extreme.

Oliver Postgate who campaigned against nuclear weapons put forward the idea that the only way they could be discussed was to see them not as weapons but as something entirely different. As an abstract if you will. Something tangible but really wholly imaginary.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

The Marina Miiltare submarine rescue ship Anteo.
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Last edited 1 year ago by The Whale Island Zookeeper
AlexS

The replacement is already being build SDO-SuRS (acronimo di Special and Diving Operations – Submarine Rescue Ship)



mariotti-drass-265.jpg
The Whale Island Zookeeper

Thank you. 🙂

JJ Smallpiece

SSBNs should be a fleet of 5 or 6 vessels.

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

All

Can I remind you all that, back in 2018, a WPC Plod, the spokeswoman for Wiltshire Police, said something along the lines of the following:

  • “I am sure the local community is very upset about the recent closure of Greggs and several other shops along Salisbury High Street. In connection with this possible offence, we are asking the public to look out for a Mr V.Putin, a possible accomplice of the two scruffily-dressed goons we publicly identified last week. Mr Putin is believed to have purchased a large glass bottle, containing a mix of very nasty chemicals, from his local chemist on the outskirts of Moscow.
  • Those really nice chaps at our very-friendly and ever-helpful local chemists, Porton Down Pharmaceuticals Ltd, have just confirmed to us that this bottle of nasty chemicals is classified as a WMD.”
  • —————————

Furthermore, quite soon after Mr Putin – a former very-senior KGB thug – came to power, four large tower blocks, containing hundred of innocent Russian’s, “unexpectedly exploded”. Mr P then invaded Chechnya, using those explosions as an excuse.

In a fifth tower block, suspicious residents caught red-handed a FSB (i.e. rebranded KGB) officer, who was carrying a large quantity of military grade explosives’, timers, wiring etc etc. He was arrested, then let out of jail the following day.

So draw your own conclusions about who arranged to blow up those tower blocks.

—————————————

The aforementioned Mr V Putin, or his accomplices, were also involved in using WMD’s (i.e. chemical weapons) on:

  • several towns in Syria
  • on several hundred of on his own population, who were held hostage in a Moscow threatre. Nearly two hundred died, most in severe agony, and all in full view of many watching TV cameras.

——————–

Last week Kim Jong Un, the elder brother of the really nasty bitch who actually runs North Korea (the very-little-known Miss Kim Yo Jong) met Mr Putin, for tea and scone’s, in Moscow.

———————————-

Vladimir Putin has used WMD’s against the UK, a nuclear-armed power, once before.

He did so because he thought he would get away with it……which he did………

Accordingly, whichever RN Admiral(s) let our submarine fleet – the SSBM boat’s themselves, their over-worked crews and especially the critical shoreside support infrastructure – fall into such a poor state of disrepair now needs to be keel-hauled.

Peter The Irate Taxpayer.

PS I nearly forgot: is Mr Putin that same bloke who started the war in Ukraine, way back in 2014?

The Whale Island Zookeeper

….

Last edited 1 year ago by The Whale Island Zookeeper
Sean

Actually Mr Putin was not a “former very senior member of the KGB”.

Although fluent in German he was overlooked for a posting to Berlin, and was stuck in a backwater office in Dresden. He claims that he reached the rank of “lieutenant colonel” in the KGB.
Hardly “very senior”.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Putin is a lawyer by training. But that doesn’t fit the Political Media Class narrative.

Duker

Yes . As this story says :
Was Putin some kind of super-spy, or more of a paper-pushing bureaucrat?
Over the years, German news reports, and some biographies, attributed various daring feats of espionage to the future Russian president. But some recent depictions are more in line with “The Office” than “The Americans” — tedious, repetitive workplace tasks as opposed to gripping espionage drama.”
LA Times
Peter has to have his James Bond collection

The Whale Island Zookeeper

It all depends whether you suck in MSM propaganda as the truth. Or go out to look for yourself.

Anybody who personalises this conflict around Putin in day to day communications such as online comments is probably a few prawns short of barbie. The sort who have WW2 said they were only following orders.

Sean

That’s not surprising, a large number of those present at the Wannasee Conference were also lawyers.
I’m tending to agree with William Shakespeare’s line from “Henry VI, Part 2”, Act IV, Scene 2…

Obviously not a very good lawyer either given he ended up driving a taxi cab…

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Sean

I must be the first to concede that I should not have used that one word “very” in my post. Sorry.

However, during the 1980’s (which was the very height of the Cold War) Dresden was no “backwater”:

  • East Germany was considered “frontline”
  • East Germany, being close to the Iron Curtain, was thus always the plum posting, for both KGB and especially regular military officers.
  • Dresden itself was both a big garrison town and especially a key Soviet Army logistics hub (because of the railway networks)
  • The Fulda Gap, which lies due west of Dresden, was always considered to be a key potential Hot War battleground (second in importance only to the North German Plain). The US Army and Air Forces would have been the main units defending it: hence their development of both the A-10 and Apache anti-tank systems in the 1970’s and 1980’s

Thus Putin, as a KGB officer stationed there would have a important senior regional role, especially for being the key regional KGB liaison with the East German Statsi.

However, like anything involving any of the intelligence services, it will always be a matter of “smoke and mirrors” as to what Putin did, and/or did not do, whilst he was in East Germany. I am quite sure that his service record has been both air-brushed and french-polished by the Russian propaganda machine.

The simple fact that Putin then moved from Dresden straight to St Petersburg’s – Russia second city and always its key trading port – is very significant. Once there, he quickly and effectively controlled many billions of incoming trade (i.e. when the Cold War ended in the early 1990’s). That city has always been his power-base.

At the end of the day, my post was a long-winded way of calling Putin a very dangerous and nasty KGB trained thug. He previously authorised the use of deadly chemical weapons’ (WMD’s) in the UK. The focus really needs to be on that…..

Peter the Irate Taxpayer

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Do 77th pay well?

Sean

Your Tim Foil Hat is showing.

I would hope 77th Brigade is doing far more important things that commenting on this website; such as countering the lies put out on social media by anti-vaxxers about the effectiveness of vaccines etc. Many of which originated from Yevgeny Prigozhin‘s Internet Research Agency.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

I am not surprised you approve of the Army policing Britons.

I bet you were clapping along with the Canadian MP’s the other day eh?

Again you are having a pop. You are starting an argument.

Acunerkal

And you? Nothing else to do? Sitting in Wormwood?

Sean

Putin himself considered Dresden a backwater and was denied repeated requests to be posted to Berlin.
He returned to St Petersburg because that was his hometown. At best he was only a reserve officer for 3 months in St Petersburg before ending up as a taxi driver.
(Depending on the source you consult, he left the KGB in Dresden and ended up having to drive home as he couldn’t afford a flight.)

His political career began when he started working in the Mayors office, within a year of which he was being investigated for corruption. Which hints he was probably already involved with organised crime before that appointment. These links continue to this day.

Putin is a murderous thug who as prime minister murdered his own citizens blowing up apartments blocks to justify a second Chechen War. On his success there, ie the blood of innocent Chechen civilians killed, he secured his first presidency.
Since then he has been responsible for bloodshed in Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine.

He’s no super spy, no masterful tactician, he’s just your run of the mill tyrant. But extremely dangerous, because Russian lacks the democratic checks and balances, the separation of powers, etc, to hold him in check.
Even if he lost power tomorrow, it’s quite likely someone equally immoral will take-over in Russia.

Duker

Drive home because they had furniture and belongings , especially the prized german washing machine!.

Balances and checks , separation of powers??
You dont understand the British system do you. Parliament is supreme and the party with a healthy majority has their way , and the monarchs powers are delegated to the PM! the courts cant overrule legislation
And as the Speaker showed during the Brexit process , conventions used since the 1600s, were discarded in a vainglorious attempt to overturn the majority will

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

 
Sean,
 

  1. Like most intelligence officers (including it has to be said, our own), I would strongly suspect Putin spent most of his career in the KGB moving pieces of paper from the left hand side of his desk over to the right hand side of his desk.
  2. All intelligence agencies employ more filing clerks than they employ covert spies.
  3. I think we will now have to “agree to disagree” about the importance, or otherwise, of Dresden during the Cold War.
  4. What we can both agree on is that Putin is a murderous thug and with many links to organised crime.
  5. Tyrant was/is a good word.
  • Peter the irate Taxpayer 
The Whale Island Zookeeper

PLAN Type 975 submarine rescue ship.
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Krittameth Honghannarong

PLAN Type 975 does not exist

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Yes. I typed a 7 instead of a 2.

Thank you taking the time out to correct my mistake. Oh! You didn’t did you? You just pointed out a mistake had been made. Well done.

Duker

Isnt there one country with a large number of subs who dont have a sub rescue ship or 3 to include with your post cards ?
Not one

Felix

Iran?

Duker

United States Navy
last sub rescue ship retired – without replacement- 1992 -95
ASR-22, ASR-23

What do they know that we dont ?

1280px-USS_Ortolan_(ASR-22)_underway_on_14_July_1979_(6430321)[1].jpg
Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Duker

The “new” RFA Proteus ship has the large crane, deck space, diving support facilities etc etc

Therefore Is there any reason why Proteus could not be used as a submarine rescue ship?

Obviously this would be an additional role, on top of its primary underwater surveillance role?

Peter The Irate Taxpayer

Sean

We have access to a dedicated shared submarine rescue resource through NATO.

The Whale Island Zookeeper

I don’t know. Most states that operate submarines have a rescue ship.

Personally I think we should have one for CASD and operations in the Norwegian Sea.

You obviously think submariners’ live aren’t worth the expense. Arguing an exception against a trend as evidence against that trend is just typical of your rather bizarre and warped reasoning.

Duker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_Northern_River
Theres your ship , multi trick pony which carries the seperate rescue part

The Whale Island Zookeeper

Everywhere where they operate submarines there is an ally with rescue ship…………

Duker

Ohhh… so that is US navy doctrine, with 60 sub fleet , rely on allies “near” ?

D. Mike Minks

I’m an “old” U. S. Navy nuke that rode a Sturgeon class boat. In one fiscal year, I spent 199 days under the water! That doesn’t include the day or so to surface at the shallow waters edge to transit to berth or departing from berth to deep water. When we finally came in for overhaul, there were more Lawyers on the pier than wives…1970 -1976

Whitesand

Looks like it has been AUKUSeed. Total utter folly.