Subscribe
Notify of
guest

136 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
SO3_aWEsome

Fantastic work Diamond. This should be being milked by the RN for recruitement purposes.

You could argue that the first uncontested RN gun kill since the Korean War was on Op Telic 10 in COB Basrah when by Land Based Phalanx destroyed dozens of 107 and 240mm rockets. These systems were Maintained and Operated by RN personnel embedded within a Royal Artillery Battery who provided the Force Protection/Command and Control.

Michael Dawes

Im filled with admiration for what the ships company achieved. I’m unsure if there is a medal which covers this operation but if there isn’t they need one ASAP and award it retrospectively to Diamond. There has been a lot to be concerned about in terms of RN kit these days but in this case we had the right ship in the right place with the right capabilities operating on the leading edge and its something to celebrate.

NomDeGuerre

I would think a clasp to the general Service Medal (08) would be the appropriate way forward. It can be established to recognise specific theatres of conflict or operations. To my understanding it – or its predecessors – have only been issued twice for single ship actions; to AMETHYST following the Yangzee Incident and to DARING in 2016, following similar operations in the Bab-Al Mandeb. The British approach to medalic recognition is that the conduct has to seen significant Risk or Rigor to those involved. I would hope that this meets the criteria! Given there is already a ‘Gulf of Aden’ clasp following the DARING operations, this would be an easy win to recognise these brave sailors with an operational gong.

Hugo

Love all the details. As dangerous as combat is it really sounds like the crew is the better for it, getting to do their jobs and fir a good reason too.

Will Diamonds refit include Camm installation?

ATH

I think so. I think all refits started after the last one included Sea Ceptor fitment.

Gunbuster

BZ.

Mike

In the finest traditions of the service.

Paul Bestwick

How much better would all of us on here feel had the RN got the planned 12 T-45s instead of the half measure they actually got.

Supportive Bloke

First off let’s see the six they have got upgraded working and crewed.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

All

Four points:

  1. As has been quite-correctly noted by others just above…….this whole series of engagements (i.e. being at the “business end of enemy HE”) must surely count as “active service” ….and therefore the entire crew should be awarded “a gong“.
  2. However….. and unfortuntely it now has to be added “not for the first time”….. the MOD and RN was far too slow to capitalise on the fact that one of HM’s warships was in action. It took nearly a fortnight for even a single picture of Diamond – with those “kill marks” showing – to appear in any UK newspaper. In an era when the media, and especially social media, all work on a timeline of a few hours (not days and weeks), that media response was simply far far too slow (i.e. by the MOD’s/RN’s media department in Whitehall).That definitely detracted from the excellent work that was being done by this ship’s crew out there on the frontline….
  3. Once again, this whole series of actions / engagements in the Red Sea shows us the sheer importance of having some / more permenant UK-controlled forward operating bases “overseas” = to support all aspects of fleet operations (i.e. as Navy Lookout quite rightly says: for logistics (esp re-arms), refuelling, kwikfit engineering and crew recreation etc etc). It is just great shame that, in this particular case, the ship itself had to transit all the way back to and from Gibraltar….becuase…. had the right quayide facilities been available in nerby Cyprus, this warship could have returned into the action even quicker….
  4. Lastly, has nobody in the RN ever though of putting a single Merlin/Crowsnest rotary flying machine onto the deck of a single T45 when it is operating out in the Red Sea? A single Crowsnest radar covers a effective combat radius of a few hundred miles…..and thus just one crowsnest AEW would have immediately identified these enemy drone(s) precise launching site(s)…so then just one phone call to another Biggles – either flying in a nearby RN Wildcat and/or to a nearby RAF Typhoon, would have finished off the entire job off properly…………with PGM’s and/or missles..

………..after all, that is what shipboune AEW was orginally devoloped to do……

Regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Hugo

Only have what 3 or 4 AEW Merlins available, and the hangar can only take 1 Merlin or 2 Wildcat and arguably the Wildcat has more utility in the region, and is obviously a proven operating method.

SailorBoy

That has to be one of the top three things to double in the whole of defence; the number of Merlins, including AEW and Commando variants.

Supportive Bloke

“ Only have what 3 or 4 AEW Merlins available, and the hangar can only take 1 Merlin or 2 Wildcat and arguably the Wildcat has more utility in the region”

So what are the AEW Merlin’s actually doing? The pilots will need to keeps hours and stay current. So they can’t simply be put under a tarp in a hangar until the next CSG.

“ is obviously a proven operating method.”

To do what exactly?? They didn’t get any shots off?? Merlin has a full comms link…..others do not….Merlin is T45 compatible……interoperability??

I agree with others down thread that the long range info was satellite and drone based.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I think there is an argument that T83 should be big enough to carry 6 large helicopters so it can host 4/5 ASaC / AEW rotor craft (plus a pinger / hack).

Whale Island Zookeeper

comment image

ATH

To provide usable hangar space for 6 Merlin sized helicopters and the accommodate the flight and maintenance crews plus the larger number of missiles the T83 is likely to need you’ll end up close to if not over 20,000t. That’ll both cost a lot to build and run but will need huge investment in support facilities. It’s not going to happen. Plus I suspect the RN would prefer 8 maybe 10 T83 as envisioned rather than 4/6 “mega ships”.

Whale Island Zookeeper

The ship above can carry six Super Frelon on 12,000 tonnes. Super Frelon is as big as Merlin.

A good guide is 1000 tonnes displacement per cab after propulsion etc has been taken care off.

The RN isn’t going to get one for one replacements for T45. Sensors are probably more important than weapons. T45’s replacement will probably break the 10,000 tonne barrier.

Just because there is a capacity to carry so many helicopters it doesn’t mean that many has to be carried all the time. Easier to increase the number of helicopters than increase the number of hulls.

12,000 tonnes is hardly a ‘mega ship’, whatever one of those is…….

I said there is an argument for the main AAW platform to carry AEW / ASaC which there is.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I think also what many here don’t quite grasp about the aircraft that carries the ASaC / AEW sensor is going to be sizeable whether it is manned or not. Removing the wetware won’t impact size too much. There will be need to lift the array. There will be a need power the array. There will be need for it to ‘hold station’ 4km or even higher hopefully above the task group. Carry fuel for high endurance. It would probably be preferable for (most) maintenance to be performed ‘inside’ which means a largish cabin. Why? Despite what many here think most aircraft live on the flight deck. Even F35b with its fancy stealth coating spends its idle on the roof. Never mind additional systems for redundancy. The cab won’t be much smaller than say a Sea King. To maintain one in the air at crucial times you are going to need 4 probably 5. Maintenance hours increase with flight hours.

If you understand technology you will understand that drones aren’t going to be cheaper or smaller.

Some here really need to take that aboard here.

Whale Island Zookeeper

It should also be noted you are not going to helicopter to go much over 20,000ft. About 25,000ft is the maximum just about. E2 operates at 25,000ft to 30,000ft.

Duker

Good points. The weight is sometimes much less but the laws of aerodynamics for longer range means longer wings.
Im also nervous about the jam proofing of the comms link to the ship or ground station

2021.06.07-unmanned1
Sean

No the F35B on RN carriers spends most of its time in the hanger-deck and not ‘on the roof’. Which is why their stealth coatings are in much better condition after deployments than those of the USN and USMC.
But then you often invent facts to justify your arguments, you should have been a politician.

No the AEW won’t be in a cabin for people to climb around in, that would be a stupid design approach to take . The AEW will be a detachable module of the drone, allowing fast swap-out for maintenance or retasking.

It’s hilarious hearing a climate-change denier claim to understand about technology, because if you did understand technology, you wouldn’t be denying science…

Last edited 5 months ago by Sean
Jonno

Can we please start calling these ships cruisers because that is truely what they are? The MPs need lessons in this whole subject as they need to understand what modern warfare is and the servicement who risk their lives. Labour need to realise they MUST stop their assault on everything that is good in the UK. I’m not going to quantify that but it includes almost all those people it has been attacking these past 4 months. Thanks to all concerned in the great achievements of HMS Diamond.
Did they get their clasp?

Sean

• Rather than lots of Merlins, it’s far more likely that the T83 will have lots of drones for AEW. Their radars wont be as powerful but they can be more of them and further from the ship to provide the same coverage. And unlike a Merlin, they’ll be expendable.
• The T83 will be larger than the T45. Building with lots of spare space for expansion on the T45 has proven to be a godsend – extra diesel generators, CAMM silo, NSM, DragonFire, etc. Crew number will be same size or smaller.
• The RN will also want at least 6 if not 8 of the Type, they may pitch for 10 so that they can negotiate down to 8.

Duker

The US has a base at Djibouti ( as has China and France) where they operate high altitude recon drones that are watching all of North Yemen. In addition the US Space force operates satellites with advanced heat detection sensors for missile launches as they happen…its alluded to in the story with the ‘within seconds’ of a missile launch.
The long range satellite and airborne sensor area is looked after, the RN wisely sticks to the low level for its Wildcat radars/sensors

Last edited 5 months ago by Duker
AlexS

I have never seen a Merlin in a T45. I wonder if they are even prepared to operate them.

Supportive Bloke

There are photos around.

They are certainly Merlin and I think Chinook cleared.

AlexS

Cleared to land is not the same as operating from.

Last edited 5 months ago by AlexS
Supportive Bloke

Merlin is cleared to operate from the Royal Navy’s aircraft carriers, amphibious assault ships, Type 23 frigates and will operate from the Type 45 destroyer.

Colonel Mark Johnson, Royal Marines, Commanding Officer of CHF

Leah

Stupid go back to school.

Frank

Moron

Harrier-Ailrago
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Frank

Did the MOD’s own official air accident investigation report eventually find that this incident was caused by WVM not displaying a AFB?

regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

The official NATO TLA translator:

  1. MOD – Ministry of Duffers
  2. WVM – White Van Man
  3. AFL – Amber Flashing Beacon
Frank

25-year-old Sub Lieutenant Ian “Soapy” Watson, a junior Royal Navy pilot undertaking his first NATO exercise, and his 14th sortie in the jet.
Watson was launched in a pair of Sea Harriers, along with a more senior pilot, and ordered to find a French aircraft carrier under combat conditions, including in radio-silence and with radar switched off.
 
After splitting up to undertake the search, he flew to an arranged meeting point with his flight leader – but the other aircraft didn’t appear. At this point, Watson turned towards Illustrious, expecting to see her on the jet’s radar, but again, was not in luck.

After making a radio transmission and not receiving a response, Watson realised his radio wasn’t working, and that his inertial navigation system hadn’t taken him back to his expected location for landing

As the aircraft began to run low on fuel, Watson turned it East towards a known shipping lane, and saw a container ship, the Alraigo, on his radar 50 miles away.Flying towards the vessel, he made visual contact when 12 miles away, initially planning to eject while in sight of it.

But after performing an initial fly-by, he noticed that the ship was carrying a number of flat-topped containers similar in size to a practice landing pad 

Watson ended up landing the Sea Harrier on top of a shipping container with just minutes of flight time to spare The aircraft began to slide backwards on the wet surface as he touched down 
 
In the end, a humble van saved the day, which had been on its way to a florist shop in Tenerife.

Last edited 5 months ago by Frank
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Frank

I do, very vaguely, remember hearing someting about this incident the time (i.e “Harrier lands on ship”)

However I never saw any of the photos.

Furthermore, I never knew any of the details as to “why and where” it had happened.

Therefore, thank you for posting ot only the the photo, but also following it up with a very useful summary of both how and why this “quite unique incident” occured.

regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Frank

ZA176 was retired in 2003 and now at Newark Air Museum in Nottinghamshire

British_Aerospace_Sea_Harrier_F_A2_‘ZA176_R-126_50316301413
Last edited 5 months ago by Frank
Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Frank

It is a great shame that the white van, the one which played such a key role in thus dramatic event, was not “saved for posterity” by the museum….,

Regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Whale Island Zookeeper

comment image

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

All

As the person who initially “started this ball rolling” – i.e. by asking why a RN Merlin Crowsnest AEW helicoptor should not being operated from the flightdeck of a T45 which is out there patrolling, in combat conditions, in the Red Sea ….

….. I shall now offer all of the “doubters out there” THE OFFICAL – (indeed definitive) pronoucement on this highly-technical subject…..

This offical annoucement was made by DES (Defence Equipment and Support) as recently as just two years ago:

So – here goes – taken straight from the horse’s mouth:

Merlin upgrade extends life of RN helicopter to 2030 – Defence Equipment & Support (mod.uk)

The key sentence is to be found near the bottom.

It confirms that RN Merlin helicoptors WILL operate from the T45 (their own words, not mine)

The Crownest AEW is essentially exactly the same airframe and engine etc as in all of the other “marks” of UK naval Merlin. Furthermore, these whirlybirds are flown by the same “pool” of Biggles.

Accordingly, I see no good reason whatsoever why a Merlin AEW cannot be operated off the back end (note 1) of a T45 destroyer which is on active service out in there in the very hostile waters of the Red Sea (note 2)….

Regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Note 1. To all serving matelots = this part of the ship is “the stern”….
Note 2. The alternative explanation is that DES told us “a porkie pie”.

Whale Island Zookeeper

My only trouble is one cab is not enough. To make it worthwhile you would need more.

As to whether Merlin can fly from T45. I should find it hard to believe that anybody is arguing over this but this is Navy Lookout…….

From the Royal Navy’s very own website……..

The Type 45 destroyers feature a flight deck and hangar to support the operation of a single Merlin helicopter. As well as hunting and obliterating enemy submarines, the Merlins can also be used for round-the-clock maritime patrol and interdiction, casualty evacuation and search and rescue missions.

Back when T45 was on the cad screen it was seen as a T42 replacement. It was a given that from it would fly the RN’s principal fleet helicopter, the Merlin. Move forward a decade or three and T45 is just a barge for SeaViper and the RN never got all the Merlins it needed.

Last edited 5 months ago by Whale Island Zookeeper
AlexS

Maybe, but i have never seen a T45 with a Merlin in operation. Not just deck landing.
Also with 30 ASW/AEW Merlin the RN do not lack them for the tiny number of its fleet..

It has 4-6 T24 operational, 3-4 T45 and 1 carrier with 5-6 Merlin. So 10-15 Merlin are the most needed.

Whale Island Zookeeper

With no real ASW sonar why waste a Merlin on T45? Never mind no heavy weight missile either…….

T45 with Thales UMS 4110 CL and Merlin with Marte it would be a different proposition.

comment image

comment image

AlexS

Isn’t the Crownest to be retired in 5 years or so?

The Crowsnest Airborne Early Warning system will achieve full operating capability next year after a spend of £425.7m, only to be retired four years later in 2029.

From ukdefencenews February 2024

Duker

Just a placeholder date to cover maintenance funding . Happens all the time , out of service dates get extended with a suitable signature from who-evers budget it comes from

Gunbuster

Operating yes. The helo start and servicing power supply system covers all UK helo power supplies and some are exotic (Apache!). Helos can and do battery start anyway.
Inside the hangar all the tools and spares are delivered to the ship in modular wheeled roller door storage cases. They fit into modular stowage and securing frames so again not an issue

So yes you could operate if needed. For a Merlin it would be cramped with all the associated spares.

Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something though. Wildcat brings a lot of things that Merlin cannot do and (vis versa)
With surface drones in play I would say the ability to reach out at distance and engage surface targets is something you want so Wildcat it is.

Gunbuster

Other bases are available in Oman and Bahrain.
However Duqm is withing missile range of Houthi forces.
Bahrain involves a SOH transit. Re ammo of complex weapons is and has been done alongside in Bahrain. There is plenty of skillsets available locally to assist BAe engineers who would and do fly out.

The USN has been putting its ABs into Bahrain a lot of late. Out of Houthi range and the base is under a Patriot battery umbrella.

Gibs advantage is the short flight time to the UK. Even a few days with family is a bonus and a massive plus for welfare of the crew. That would have been a bigger driver than anything else.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Gunbuster

Two very useful posts (note 1) from you about:

  • the key contraints of operating these helicoptors onboard the T45
  • which ports are currently the “most-useful” naval bases out in the Middle East.

In reply:

I must admit that I remain “very very surprised” that.an AEW Crowsnest Merlin has (apparently) never ever been operated from the stern of a T45.

As the T45 was, right from the very start, only designed and built to be a “specialist / bespoke” AAW ship, frankly this one seems to me to be one hell of a very basic omission…

There really ought to have been some peacetime trials = if for no other reason than to “prove the concept” – and thus also to full certify the two systems (i.e. T45 and Merlin) to be operated together (i.e. to be prepared to “go now” should the need ever arise to “pair them up”)

Furthermore, all of your key points about both Gibraltar and Bahrain are all “spot on” .

However the simple fact remains that Cyprus is a UK sovereign base area and the island is geographically “much closer to the action”. Therefore I feel that some investment in improved base facilities at Cyprus is “long overdue”

regards Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

(Note 1= as always with all your posts…..please keep up the good work….)

Duker

Planned 12 T45s was a Cold War era planning as a like for like replacement of the T41s.
The Navy was much larger then with 40 or so Destroyers and escorts ( so was the RAF and British Army much much larger). Totally unfeasible in the 2000s era.
Actual contracts when the construction plans and costs were available were 6 on contract with 2 options.
Those 2 options priced at £800 mill or so each based on the last unit cost of 4 & 5 could have been very useful …in hindsight.
But of course the new carriers were starting to be built and the Astutes were in financial disaster zone ( due to the bad contract and poor design practices of the builder let 2 months before the 1997 election)

N-a-B

Ahem. Programme of record for 12 when the T45 project commenced following collapse of Horizon in 1999. Only a decade after the end of the cold war……

The Royal Navy’s New-Generation Type 45 Destroyer: Acquisition Options and Implications (rand.org)

Duker

Thanks for that …

However The Rand Study says Pg 79
“We have assumed throughout the main body of the analysis that 12 Type 45 ships will be built over the next two decades. However, the total number is far from certain. ”

So they looked at some implications for a build of 3,6,9,12, 15 ships

The MOD assumptions of 12 T45 they mention were derived from an earlier report
Ministry of Defence, Performance Report 1999/2000, Abbey Wood, England, “Annex B: Force Structure”

However even by 2000 the 12 replacements was noted only as maximum, not a committed number

Supportive Bloke

The only committed number was the budget.

As the costs of SAMPSON / VIPER / T45 went up post Horizon the numbers went down.

Simple as that.

At the start of the project £500m per high end destroyer sounded pretty achievable.

Leah

Including 12 of your children to command the ship. Stupid comment.

ALASDAIR GILCHRIST

absolutely blame for that lies in bloated profits of the prime contratctor and lack of effective procurement structures and penalties by MOD Commercial !!!!

Clive

Well done to Diamond’s crew for an outstanding job. Just on the subject of Wildcat and Martlet, do those helicopters have the capability of engaging air targets such as drones if they were in a position to do so, or are the Martlets limited to surface targets when carried by Wildcat?

SailorBoy

The Ukrainians have used the Martlet we gave them alongside StarStreak as the cheap option for dealing with UAVs from ground launch.
I imagine the targeting systems on a Wildcat are more capable than the plain shoulder sight so ought to be even more useful for that role.
It’s all the same system in terms of guidance but I don’t know how automated it is from a helicopter.

Clive

Thanks. I just wondered if there was something fundamental preventing Wildcats using Martlet in the air-air role.

Chris scragg

Congratulations to all the crew of HMS DIAMOND and thank you for allowing me to join the ship in Plymouth and saile back to Portsmouth for the home coming. 😃

Gunbuster

A wildcat did a trial shoot of martlet in AA role . The capability exists. That said with surface drones in play martlet against those is also a big plus.

Nat

Well, all I can say to that is, Cracking job everyone, Well Done!!

Darryl2164

Well done Diamond , maybe now the government might realise the value of these ships and order more of them . The type 83 will be expensive and unproven whereas this ship and it’s systems are a world beater

Hugo

Eh, T45 has plenty of flaws, bad ASW, unreliable propulsion, and it’s running out of room for expansion.
Also the Radar system is fine now but will need replaced by something better and better missile systems if were to deal with something like Hypersonics.

Don’t see a repeat of T45 after all the issues it’s had.

david anthony simpson

Give it a rest – most are fed up with this sort of inaccurate sweeping negativity – waste of typing matey

Hugo

Wdym? I’m sorry but it’s not inaccurate, it’s reportedly noisy, the Sonar isn’t anything to look at and between PIP, CAMM upgrades, and potentially adding Dragonfire and new Decoy launchers there won’t be much room left.
Point is, they’re not going to build more T45 because it hasn’t been a completely successful design and is too small for the future

Last edited 5 months ago by Hugo
Supportive Bloke

“ unreliable propulsion, and it’s running out of room for expansion.”

The first is being fixed and is already mitigated cf Diamond’s deployment.

There is plenty of top weight margin on T45.

You can still put Mk41 strike and cannister NSM.

Hugo

Diamond doesn’t even have PIP yet, I’m glad it had a good deployment but don’t tell me you weren’t worried something would happen.
Top weight sure, deck space, less so, Camm will make mk41 upgrade null, NSM will be on it, eventually but most ships should fit at least 8 ashm cans.
New Decoys and Draginfire will make them potent vessels but likes been said elsewhere, the way destroyers are going is bigger (new italian design is 10k+ tons) more power generation and hopefully more vls. And almost certainly fixed arrays.

AlexS

The biggest problem is how much time they seem to be out of service to do the PIP or whatever they are doing in it.

Duker

Yes. It seems the Main PIP contractor then sub contracts the work to Cammel Laird at their yard to do the actual insertion of the new machinery. That must waste time and effort to have that part done in isolation while other work waits for the ship to return to Portsmouth

N-a-B

Not any more. Lairds are off the job post Dauntless and Daring.

Duker

Learning curve gone..

Leah

No patrols of the channel to satisfy X.

Whale Island Zookeeper

SeaViper is very good. The barge it is bolted on to not so much.

SailorBoy

Fat chance of that, frankly.
T45 is an old design by modern standards (ABs notwithstanding) so the best we could hope for is either a T26 or T31 AAW variant as an interim if it takes too long to sort the T83 design out.
PAAMS is indeed a world class system, but developments in radar and software will leave it behind before long. It is naive to expect any system to last as long as 50 years as we could reasonably expect T83 to still be going in the 2050s and even beyond.

Duker

Not really . The two bands of main search radar is only something the USN AB are getting now with the exclusive to USN SPY-6 and alternative SPY-7 for others.

Its the modern way , the software and sensors are the upgradeable items , the platform doesnt have to change for that.
Its even explicit in the story
here were no patches or upgrades applied to the system in theatre and although it has been improved over the years, the current baseline fit proved more than capable of handling the threat posed
Last year the most recent in an ongoing series of major radar contracts for £270 mill was let. Those upgrades are purposely intended for the existing vessels and moves the technology level for future products.

AlexS

The two bands of main search radar is only something the USN AB are getting now with the exclusive to USN SPY-6 and alternative SPY-7 for others.



Japanese and Italians already have 2 band radars in their ships.

Last edited 5 months ago by AlexS
Duker

2 separate systems like the UK.
Only the SPY-6 has the 2 different bands ( S and X) on on the one flat emitter-receiver .( made up with individual blocks)
The radar system part operating in S band will provide wide-area volume search, target tracking, Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) discrimination, and missile tracking. Operating in X-band the radar will provide horizon search, precision tracing, missile communications, and final illumination guidance to targets.  Radar tutorial

ATH

I wouldn’t be surprised if the last T83 (or whatever the T45 replacement ends up as) is still in service in 2070!

Rob

There is a bigger chance of England winning the World Cup than this, but fantasies are free.

Louis Gordon

Do we have proximity fused ammunition for the 4.5″ gun? It seems massively wasteful to sling Aster or CAMM at low tech drones, and 30mm and Phalanx lack the range to defend to other ships.

Supportive Bloke

Ammunition – yes. It is all tri fused.

CMS integration for AAW – no.

The module wasn’t developed when the guns were converted from hydraulic to servo.

Question is – is it worth it with T23 dropping like flies and only 6 legacy turrets on T45 in service in a decade? Would it be cheaper and less risky to swap the turret for something already CMS integrated?

Hugo

Seems like we’re abandoning medium gun AAW anyway with the new 5 inch gun.
What would the alternative to 4.5 inch, T31 guns are using a different system now?

Supportive Bloke

If it is a pure AAW gun then 57 or 76mm

If you are relying on CAMM + 40mm ;assumed upgrade) + Dragonfire then a heavy calibre.

I wonder how much space there really is as T45 was designed for the BAE 155mm system that was cancelled.

The ultimate question is ‘what is the gun for?’

Gunbuster

4.5 is an AA capable gun.
The predictor isn’t fitted .
If you dont have a predictor then it doesnt matter what gun you have 76mm or 57mm

In Hong Kong I was a 76 mm Oto base maintainer and Fire control system back up maintainer. The Oto on the HK PCs had the AA capability removed by not including an AA predictor in the sea archer FC system. (Didn’t want to annoy the soon to be new owners). Its predictors that give you AA capability.

Supportive Bloke

Things have moved on a bit from a stand alone predictor the size of a fridge!

The ‘predictor’ will be a CMS software module – wether it is radar or EO derived….or some other sensor input.

Gunbuster

A predictor is a predictor be it a physical lump of steel and brass wheels, a fridge sized box of valves or a software plug in.
Without it you ain’t doing AA except in rifle mode!

Duker

4.5in is a medium gun like the 5 in.

The RN once had too many medium calibres . A 4 in , the 4.5 in, the once standard 4.7 in (120mm) and the 5.33 in.

Andrew Harris

In the range of Gun sizes, 4.5 and 5 inch’s is actually in the lower 3rd compared to 16 and 18 inch guns that the RN have mounted in the past.

Gunbuster

4.5 now has base bleed ammo that alters the ballistic performance of the round.
A T23 can track aircraft using it EO tracker easily (done it lots of times). I would need to know from a T45 weaponeer for their confirmation for their system.
The 4.5 gun can be put on the end of the tracker and follow it.
However, the predictor part that puts lead corrections into the system that put the shell ahead of the target wasn’t done as part of the base bleed ammo upgrade.

Supportive Bloke

More the issue….is it worth it on an old gun that there will only be six of in service in not that long?

No question the software can be developed, integrated and tested.

Or is it worth it while T23 is around to give another layer of medium range drone defence that keeps drones at arms length which the 30mm can’t?

As ever it is down to money, target drones and range time.

Bertram Billinness

Well done the Senior Service. You have to have been there to understand the environment that the teams are working in.
Don’t mess with the Royal Navy and Marines.
Come on MOD (N) get it together and give us the support that our Island needs and the Services deserve.

Jim

Well done HM Diamond ships company and senior management teams.

Donaldson

BZ Diamond. UK could do with joining Italy/France purchasing some more Aster missiles to replace the ones used and up the stockpile numbers.

That patch is awesome btw

Duker

They are upgrading to only the longer range Asters , and the shorter range Asters mostly used will be replaced by the Sea Ceptors to be installed at major refit

Supportive Bloke

Long term all A15’s will be converted to A30.

The top bit is exactly the same.

All 48 VLS slots will then hold A30.

Additionally Sea Ceptor will replace A15’s role to augment magazine depth onboard.

NSM is also coming at some point for surface to surface.

The icing would be to change the 30mm to 40mm as they have much better range and with the bigger shell lots more capability. That isn’t an expensive change and 40mm is on the roster for T31 – so it is in inventory.

Hugo

Might have to be mounted somewhere else? Iirc 30mm are on a seperate raise platform and I wonder whether they’d hold a 40mm

SailorBoy

The 40mm in its lightest arrangement (non deck penetrating pedestal mount) weighs less than a Phalanx and has around the same footprint while still carrying 110 rounds.
That would probably be light enough to go anywhere a 30 is (don’t know how much a 30 mount weighs, it’s probably in the NL article on it).
The obvious thing to do with 40mm is replace all of the point defence systems on the CGs with 4 40mm, one on each corner, to replace both the 30s and Phalanx. If the sponsons got redesigned you could probably also have a magazine for many more engagements without reloading.

Gunbuster

And the extra trackers are going where?
On mount EO trackers?
Mount Reload times?
Resupply times from deep mag to the mount.
Ammo Resupply route and mechanical/handraulic resupply by who?
Primary and secondary power supplies and services to the trackers and mount?
MTBF?
Mutual interference issues?
Ammo susceptibility to RF?

Lots of other stuff is involved in weapon systems integration.
Nothing is plug and play.
Nothing just ” bolts on”

Zue Gaspar

The Seahawk mount of the DS30M is marketed to be able to host a 40mm gun. The 30mm Mk.44 Bushmaster II gun that the DS30M currently uses is upgradeable to 40mm with little more than a barrel swap, and about an hours time.

If fitted with the 40mm Mk.44 Bushmaster II though, the DS30M would still use a different kind of ammunition to that of the 40mm Bofors 40 Mk.4. The 40mm Bofors 40 Mk.4 is one gun system set to don the Type 31s, and by comparison is a significantly more powerful, and more capable weapon when compared to the 40mm Mk.44 Bushmaster II.

As an aside: the Americans are set to effectively adopt the DS30M into service as the Mk38 Mod 4.

Last edited 5 months ago by Zue Gaspar
Duker

Guys its time to leave the 1960s behind. The newest systems are here now and a much better upgrade or addition

2024-04-12-Image-DragonFire-laser-programme-accelerating-to-equip-Royal-Navy-6x4-1-1024x6831
Last edited 5 months ago by Duker
Supportive Bloke

Layers
Mix of systems

Eggs one basket all in not….rearrange to taste.

Duker

Its not to replace existing 30mm, but if any changes are coming this is it. Its seriously out of date thinking for an ‘upgrade to larger calibre for the sake of it’

Supportive Bloke

I didn’t say that.

If you look up the thread I posited the question “what is the gun for?”

Also discussing whether replacing the 4.5” with a 57 or 76mm is the right move. If the goal is AAW.

I was musing the question as to whether the space for the aborted BAE 155 was retained in the production ship or had been encroached on by other mods. I’ve no idea and I wasn’t suggesting fitting a non existent 155mm gun to a T45.

AlexS

It do not even work…

Duker

Who says that
https://www.navylookout.com/dragonfire-pathway-to-a-laser-directed-energy-weapon-for-royal-navy/
DragonFire is not the only UK LDEW project and the MoD is investing around £100 million in this technology.’

DagonFire-Laser-Royal-Navy1
Jon

It’s the only one left that’s suited to ships. The Raytheon one can be used for SHORAD, but the Type 45 delivers theatre protection and isn’t likely to let threats get within a couple of kms of the ship just so it can use a cheap-to-fire laser system. High power is the only way to go with ship lasers. We’ll have to wait and see if Dragonfire is powerful enough to be useful or if it will need several more iterations.

The problem we have is that lasers are flashy technology and politicians love promoting flashy tech (instead of boring NSM and invisibly accelerating the introduction of the data links on the ships’ Wildcats). That’s why Dragonfire has been announced before it’s really ready for primetime.

Duker

Thanks for that. The computer image however shows the T31 not a T45

AlexS

So?
How much dwell time to destroy an Iranian Shahed drone if a foggy day at 4km?

Supportive Bloke

Use a 40/57mm shell?

Works perfectly in foggy conditions

Duker

Whats the ready use ammo capacity?

AlexS

Yes, that is the solution, not relying in laser thing.

Sean
AlexS

Maybe when they are working you will have an argument…

Sean

If you bothered to read the link I’m before commenting you’d know that it already works. Maybe you should read more in general?…

Gunbuster

Ceptor has a quick reaction to the horizon Surface capability

Supportive Bloke

Indeed but you have a finite number of mid priced shots (cheaper than A15).

With a 40/57mm system as well you have more shots and can save the Ceptors for when they are really needed.

A deeper threat table and more answers.

Duker

40/57mm gun systems are normally fired in bursts- at a very high rate of fire. As distance increases the error from atmospheric effects and ship motion combine to make them less accurate.
The improvement track for small calibre gun systems has plateaued, while laser system can only get better
that £100 mill for laser systems isnt replicated for gun systems

Supportive Bloke

And in certain circumstances: tropical rainstorm; heavy mist a laser won’t be useful.

The two approaches are co-additive or co-existive….

Sean

Indeed they’re complementary systems.
Some people want one-stop silver-bullet solutions, which in reality are rare.

AlexS

Haha, talking about atmospheric effects for guns but not for lasers…

And ship motion? When for a laser is not only ship motion but also target motion.
You need dwell time in same spot for the laser to have time to destroy.
It is not instantaneous like in the movies.

Esteban

Bravo Zulu Diamond!

Leah

But users on X want then to sink refugee boats in the Channel.

Whale Island Zookeeper

I hoping T83 corrects T45’s major firepower deficiency.

comment image

comment image

Whale Island Zookeeper

comment image

AlexS

Indeed, gun upgrade instead of spending Aster 30 to down 300km/h drones.

More or less a 1930 fighter from almost 100 years ago.

Whale Island Zookeeper

A destroyer with Aster 30, various types of Sea Ceptor, guns, lasers, and EW would be the optimum. Itlay’s CIWS strategy is based around 76mm Stales firing DART and SeaRAM. Phalanx can’t last much longer in service.

AlexS

From the score marks in the bridge it appears to me except the ballistic missile and the double tail drone and even that assuming it was high altitude all others could have been downed by a 76mm gun.

Duker

They keep improving it inspite of that. Once it was only self contained as far as searching and tracking for inboard targets. Now the CMS can supplement the tracking and the system can now follow and engage crossing targets. Naturally it was originally designed around sea skimming high speed low cross section missiles but for larger slower and crossing targets has a longer effective range ( the same as any cannon system)
The US Navy has to have the Sea Ram system because ESSM has an envelope gap closer in, RN doesnt have the same issue with sea ceptor ( the carriers should swap out the light gun for Sea ram)

AlexS

the same as any cannon system

Haha

Duker

The quite valid comments about the T45 lack of sonar ( wasnt it removed?) have to be seen in the light of the senior RN commanders background.

The last submarine !st Sea Loard was Stanhope back in 2009-2011

of the current 3 full Admirals ( inc CDS and Deputy Nato Commander ) none have sub background
Of the current 10 Vice Admirals ( inc those on MoD and Joint commands) only 1 is from the subs. And he doesnt have an operational role being head of the Sub Delivery Agency !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_senior_officers_of_the_Royal_Navy

The top ranks of the RN and other appointments are full of Fleet Air Arm and surface warfare branches. not a submarine/ under water warfare specialist is sight

Whale Island Zookeeper

Nah. I can see from where you are coming. The submarine is a weapon of war, it has very little utility unlike a surface warship. HMG can get away with the silly games like those it played in the Black Sea knowing full well that that Daring was safe. But we build warships for war. What happens when the balloon goes up? That’s the problem. Especially when our supposed main opponent’s main naval strength is in with submarines.

Duker

Fair enough. I was thinking that only the sub people understand sonars ..in both underwater and surface ships.
Anyway it see that the top ranks are practically devoid of sub people and they are budget holders

Ryan Moore

Given the rapid generation from completely unrelated tasking, the deployment of HMS Richmond, an ASW towed array frigate into Prosperity Guardian for 6 weeks whilst Diamond was in Gibraltar is actually worthy of recognition here. Personally I think their deployment was much more significant, challenging and successful for a variety of reasons. I hope the team in Richmond also get proper recognition.

Whale Island Zookeeper

Perhaps would could look at Korea’s next gen platform?

comment image.webp

AlexS

Fixed planar arrays. Something that RN will not have in next 2 decades…while everyone else will.

Duker

Other advantages from having higher rotating fixed arrays
Buying US made – only SPY7 is for sale to nato like allies- ties into their huge costs and weight

AlexS

Leonardo and Thales have radars.

Rob

I don’t know how many people in this forum watched the series The Veil but did I see a type 45 doing a cameo role as a Romanian frigate in episode 5??

Philip Eley

Hi , I am wondering if someone can help me please.
My father was an anti aircraft gunner on the HMS Diamond that was sunk in WW2. He was one of 40 odd survivors from some 900 sailors and soldiers from the Diamond and the Wymark when they were sunk by the Luftwaffe. I have tried several times to contact the comm anding officer Cmd Peter Evans with no success. My family has wonderful photos of the crew from WW2/ his sewing kit and memorabilia that we would like to donate in the form of a trophy cabinet for the mess room (If deemed appropriate) , Can anyone help us make contact . We are in Australia
with thanks
Phili Eley