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Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Editor

Sorry to be rude here – however operating a very small drone from the flattop of the QE class acrriers main flightdeck can hardly be accurately described as “confined”

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)
  • #this will mark the first time they are employed at scale in a maritime environment by the RN”

Editor

Noted…but, sir!

……If these drones were first delivered to the RN last August, then why have they (apparently) not been tested out “at scale in a martime environment” before now

These radio controlled model aircraft should have been exttensively tested onboard several moving RN and RFA ships over the past eight months!

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

PS. However I am very pleased that, for the first time ever, I got the first post on NL!

Andrew Deacon

Perhaps not tested out, as the RN has not been operating “at scale in a maritime environment” ?

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Andrew

As I was typing those words “at scale” yesterday………the thought did occur to me that – maybe, just maybe – the RN had only had one surface ship out at sea at any one time over the past eight months….

…..or may be the two warships at sea were too far apart….

I am afraid that I still believe that this crucial testing of the new UAV has been severely delayed because a senior officer (or two) wanted to get “first RN at scale use of UAV’s” onto the marking of his (or her) homework chart..

…thus receiving five gold stars from the 1SL at the end of CSG25 = and thus another step up the RN’s greasy pole on the way to another promotion.

—————————

Yu may remember that we saw a similar problem near the end of CSG 21 = where the aircaft engineers were flogged to death by senior officers surging F35’s off the flightdeck – and so, instead of getting well-earned break, the excessively tired Dambuster’s engineers then accidentially left red gear in the inlet – causing a crash…(note1)

The “hard truth” of the matter is that this UAV really should have been fully tested and commisioned many months ago = and thus the Malloy should already be in full RN service by now

That at sea experimentation is, after all, what the Pat B trials ship was brought specfically “to do”….

and frankly, the RN is forgetting that the flightdeck of a carrier is always a very dangerous place – so it really should not be used for “experimentation”

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Note1… and another sale to Martin Baker (of Denham Bucks)

Fat Bloke on Tour

Where is the positivity — this is not rocket science.
Small wins are all that is needed.

Fat Bloke on Tour

So we now have the RN / MOD catching up with Rightmove.
Next step is to keep going rather than patting ourselves on the back.

Seemingly they are now at 400kg / 180kg payload..
Need to crack on to 1000kg / 500kg payload.

Hardly rocket science in the grand scheme of things.
Just a case of keep on plodding on.

Plus find another local company to keep them company.
Competition is the key as Porter found out in the 70’s.

Jon

Proteus will be approx 3t MTOW / 1t payload, double what you asked for, with the demonstrator flying later this year. Also it’ll be made not by Malloy/BAE, but Leonardo UK. So you get what you wished for there as well. The sites are about 60 miles from each other, so I’d say that’s local. Are you happy?

Fat Bloke on Tour

Proteus — blind helicopter design vibe.

Malloy style — flying bedstead look.

AEW / low cost solution — umbilical is needed to take out the refuelling inefficiency.

So pretty happy — progress but lots to do.

Andrew Deacon

How have we ended up with Proteus being both a helicopter and a ship? Rename the ship looming!

Jon

The same way Protector is a drone and a ship, perhaps. There are over 600,000 words in the OED but MOD’s ability to name names is surprisingly limited.

Andrew Deacon

At least they cleaned up Ajax to Achilles via Agincourt!

Fat Bloke on Tour

Fleet AEW workload potential.
Heavy lift drone on a leash vs balloon on a leash?

What would be weight of the radar — 1000kg ball park figure?

Hugo

Hardly. Maybe Proteus will see an aew version but that’s more like a Wilcat size helicopter drone

Fat Bloke on Tour

1000kg mission load for AEW — too high or too low?

Drone on a leash would be the low cost / angle iron solution.

Leash — services umbilical.

BigH1979

How much would the umbilical weigh?

SailorBoy

We worked out the mechanics of “drone on a leash” here a while ago.
For any appreciable height, the weight of a tether that provides power to keep both the radar and itself in the air becomes so much that you might as well just lift a fuel tank for a non-tethered drone.
The laws of physics essentially prevent it being a viable alternative to Crowsnest for a long while yet.

Fat Bloke on Tour

What altitude were you working to?
500M altitude — what coverage does that provide?
Rinse and repeat at 500M intervals upwards.
1000M for a nice round number.

Umbilical weight — 500kg / 50% of payload / Plug number.

Plan B / Clunky — one drone to lift the umbilical / one drone to scan?

Plan C / Classy — Balloon.

Sailorboy

That 50% of payload figure is the issue.
Replace it with 500kg of fuel, and you produce a drone that can position itself up threat from the parent ship, and doesn’t block helicopter flights while airborne.
Plan B makes no sense- why not have a single, larger drone?
Balloons might work, but they are a pig to recover in high winds or in a hurry, and still block helicopter flights while ‘up’.

Fat Bloke on Tour

Drones don’t exclude other helicopter operations if you manage the flight deck correctly.

Plus you can delegate.

Tethered = Continuous coverage.
Electric powertrain = cheaper / more reliable / less servicing.
Direct relay of the information back to ground.
Multiple rotor control strategy — very common.

Free flight = multiple units in play with a transition loss.
Plus all the ICE maintenance issues and costs.
Single rotor control strategy — not as widespread / not as robust.

Double vs single drone — fair point.
But there would be a delay — B707 to B747 was 12 / 15 years.
MOD New Year’s Resolution — Go fast and make stuff.

NomDeGuerre

We used the tethered balloons extensively for overwatch of the main operating bases in Afghan (and even some FOBs), although this was about as far from the sea as we could be!
It was still variable and windy with sand-storms etc. Have a google of the Persistent Ground Surveillance Systems (PGSS) the capability was called ‘Revivor’.

Duker

Proteus as a 3 tonne class uncrewed helicopter is half the max weight of a Wildcat at 6000 kg/ 6 tonnes. For helicopters half the weight is a big class difference

SailorBoy

The question becomes, what’s next?
Presumably Proteus, being modular, will have some form of cargo lift capability, but I doubt it has the range or payload for all of the CSG’s needs.
Would a larger, specialised naval heavy lift drone be better suited? The Chinese had a concept for a sort of unmanned Chinook, which might work, but an F35 engine weighs 3 tonnes, so a “double Proteus” still won’t cut it. Perhaps just scale the concept up?

Jon

If the Malloy T-150 can handle 95% of the transfers, Wildcat and Merlin can do the other 5%. There comes a point where if you are taking crewed helicopters along anyway, the money saved by using a large drone over an even larger helicopter won’t pay for the drone in the first place. We’ll still be using Merlin helicopters to at least 2040 and after that probably the NATO next gen rotary (NGRC), which I believe will be the optionally crewed medium lift. I’m sure Proteus will also occasionally double up as a lifter if it’s there in another capacity.

QE class carriers are big enough to carry a spare engine or two if that’s a thing, and Merlins can lift far more than 3 tons underslung.

Fat Bloke on Tour

MOD economics — no wonder we are skint.
Drone vs Helicopter build / use economics — there is only one winner.

Merlin — new build cost / running cost?
Are we at F35 levels yet in either sphere?

Merlin — Gold plated hangar queen?
High hopes back in the day but never made it in civvies.
Might be harsh but it is no Sea King.

Andrew Deacon

Does the operator join the Goldfish Club if the drone ditches? Joking apart how much are they if one did ditch?

Jon

The US got theirs for around £300K a piece. Don’t know what we paid for ours. It’s no F-35 that’s for sure.

Sean

Usual suspects complaining that they could do better than the RN at introducing these to service, while the ADHD crew want these to haul AEW equipment skyward with a power tether attached… 🤦🏻‍♂️

Duker

https://www.defensedaily.com/kaman-chosen-to-build-prototype-marine-corps-logistics-drone/navy-usmc/
800 lb payload
Dudes put your toys away at a measly 150lbs/68 kg for the Malloy

“The KARGO is expected to be 24.4 feet by 24.4 feet when rotors are extended and be 7.5 feet tall. It weighs 1,340 pounds when empty of cargo. The company’s product website said with only external fuel it can operate up to 523 nautical miles, with a 200-pound payload can go out to 390 nautical miles, with a 300-pound payload operate to 326 nautical miles and with a 600-pound payload travel out to 143 nautical miles.”

Karman have a long history of helicopters for the USN and even ran some autonomous versions of the forest logging K-max in Afghanistan for USMC ( 6 tonnes underslug payload at sea level)

Hugo

That’s overkill for what this is required to do

Fat Bloke on Tour

Metric = 180kg.

Malloy seemingly has one in the works.
Testing it by all accounts so not dreamware.

Drones / UAV– market segmentation in full swing.

Electric powertrains / multiple rotors vs ICE / single rotor.
I think multiple rotors will work.

Electric powertrains — Batteries vs Genset?
Batteries will be mass market / Genset more specialised?

The answers will have changed by next week.
Civil use will drive innovation.
Military is glacial.

Donny John might help — he is shaking the tree and change is coming.

Irate Taxpayer (Peter)

Fat Bloke on Tour

To save the rest of us from even bothering to comment = can I ask that you please start replying to your own posts from now onwards.

In anticipation, many thanks

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

Jon

The RN could have taken the T400 or even bought the T600. They clearly didn’t need extra payload, and why would you need much range for intra-group transfers? I’m sure the KARGO will be a fine drone when it’s operational (next year or so I’ve read).

NomDeGuerre

We used FORTIS as the test case. We had to track every intra-theatre move (for 7 f***kin months!), collating the stats. I can’t remember the specific weight, but it was comfortably under 20KG (mainly computer cards and fresh fruit and veg in support of engagement events). The majority of transfers were actually people rather than stores which will continue to be a combination of helo/boat tx.

Graham

Total waste of time and money, we have helicopters to do that.