A submarine returned home to the Clyde today following the longest ever patrol by a British nuclear deterrent-carrying boat.
This submarine left Faslane in late August and has been away for 204 days. This breaks the record achieved in 2023, an extraordinarily long time for the crew to spend underwater. This submarine was relieved in the last few days by another boat that sailed last week, following significant delays in getting it ready for sea. The length of patrols has been rising sharply over the last few years. The last eight deterrent patrols have all exceeded five months in duration. Today’s homecoming is another epic achievement, even if spending almost half a year underwater is becoming ‘normal’.
On paper, this is more ‘efficient’ as it reduces the time spent in handovers and there are longer periods to conduct post-patrol maintenance, recover and prepare for the next. However, it also adds additional risk that the continuous nature of the deterrent could be compromised as these ageing boats must avoid serious defects and be maintained at sea for longer.
The psychological toll on the crews is also of deep concern, given that a 3-month patrols used to be considered very tough. The Sun reported last year that towards the end of one patrol, food supplies were running so low that submariners were on almost starvation rations. As the boats were originally designed with food stores and freezers to support a maximum of 3-4 months at sea, not to mention the basic human need for fresh fruit and vegetables, there is speculation that the boats may be discreetly surfaced and resupplied at sea mid-patrol. This would be in contravention of the overriding command aim – to avoid detection at all costs.
Maintaining the UK’s continuous-at-sea deterrent is assuming ever-greater importance at a time of increasing uncertainty about European security. Although CASD remains UK defence priority one, the RN is struggling to uphold this commitment as the boats get older. The arrival of the new Dreadnought class (from approximately 2032) cannot come soon enough.
In more positive news for the Submarine Service, the ship lift at Faslane is back in action with a Vanguard class boat seen entering in early January. HMS Victorious recently entered the refurbished number 9 dry dock in Devonport as her Deep Maintenance Period (DMP) begun in May 2023 progresses. Better planning and a determination not to repeat the mistakes made with HMS Vanguard will hopefully see Victorious return to action within 3 years.
You can hear the lawyers revving up for the many claims of the crew alleging psychological damage for the 204 day cruise under water.
Stretching the elastic this much will only cause it to snap.
No wonder the RN is having recruitment problems.
I gather there’s not many women in submarines and I can’t see this length of patrol encouraging them. Women’s health was originally cited as a reason for barring from subs.
Only the toughest win
against beadie eyed
Neanderthal gangsters.
..Also wer sind dann die Neandertal Kriminellen, die mit ihren zusammengekniffenen Augen die starken Jungs fürchten müssen? 😱😂
All caused by those three chinless wonders, Cameron, Osborne & Clegg delaying Trident renewal by 5yrs…in fact, pretty much all of today’s woes in the British Military can be traced back to those idiots.
Yeah, right. Blame them for not ordering the destroyers that weren’t ordered by the Blair/Brown Government. Blame them for the power problems on the Type 45s necessitating the PIP. Blame for the 13 years when a Labour Gov didn’t order one frigate. Stop taking sides; all politicians are cr@p when it comes to defence and claiming one side is better than the other is just pathetic.
new Type 23 replacement frigates designs were funded and under development from the Blair Brown government, specifically to follow on from the last of the T45
“In May 2008, QinetiQ announced an 11-month contract;
In 2009, BAE was awarded a design contract for the C1 and C2 element of FSC, the image below shows one of the early C2 designs, much reminiscent of the early Type 26
C1 was the full equipped frigate design while C2 was a ‘cheaper version’. later became T31 under different contract and design
The C1 project or T26 was at ‘INITIAL GATE at march 2010– before the May 2010 election.
Its was the new 2010 government which halted the frigate program in 2010. Supposedly for ‘cheaper alternatives’ yet just before 2015 election the existing high price BAE T26 design was back again but not till 2017
Please dont tell falsehoods about the Frigate design and development right up till the May 2010 election
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/type-26-global-combat-ship-gcs-history/
I’m an Aussie Unfortunately surface units are just target’s for Submarines these days add Hypersonic missiles it’s a cruel world.Was on 0 boats ran out of HMS Faselane 50 years ago.Training in RN
If you knew what those contracts were actually for, as opposed to scouring the internet you might have some credibility.
Also – try to be consistent. The post above says “Initial Gate March 2010”.whereas your one below states “Main Gate” in Jan 2010.
This suggests that either you’re just throwing internet stuff, or more likely, you don’t understand what Initial Gate and Main Gate actually entails. For starters, you don’t have a “design” that you can contract against at IG. You do have a design you can contract against at MG – but the level of design is only enough that the shipbuilder is confident they can meet the price. It does not mean that there is a design ready to build.
In the case of T26, the MG point was always planned to be in the middle of the decade 2010-2019. There was some delay due to the SDSR decision to review the capability, but that had been concluded by end 2011. What was important was that the assessment phase budget of ~£160M was very quickly spent by BAES. That led to the standoff between BAES and MOD. What was also extremely important was that literally a couple of months before the “first” main gate decision, which released more money in around 2014 the beam of the design increased by around one metre.
If one understands ship design and shipbuilding, that is a significant change – and not something one does with anything like a mature design. Timeline and info is here.
Appendices and project summary sheets
Point being there was absolutely nothing fixed about the T26 technically until the middle of the decade. It wasn’t a political decision to delay and then restart, it was a series of standoff over funding, driven partly by the certainty of some senior folk that a frigate could not possibly weight more than 6000 te.
Thats incorrect …again.
Its monstrous to suggest ‘nothing fixed’ about T26 until middle of decade.
Janes said around the time..
The FSC C1 baseline design suggests a ship 141 m-long and displacing 6,850 tonnes. It will be equipped with a low-frequency active variable depth sonar and two launchers for the Future Local Area Air Defence System (Maritime), firing the Common Anti-air Modular Missile.
Options include a vertical launch system for Tomahawk or Storm Shadow land-attack missiles, or alternatively a modified M270 guided multiple-launch rocket system. The Harpoon anti-ship missile system is also an option, while the main gun will be a 127 mm, 155 mm or refurbished 4.5 inch (114 mm) Mk 8 mount. Aviation facilities include a flight deck capable of supporting a Chinook helicopter, a hangar for a Merlin-sized helicopter and a smaller hangar for unmanned aerial vehicles. Type 26 will become the lead platform for unmanned vehicles but will not be responsible for their development and procurement.”
‘Fixed’ is irrelevant as with any project detail design changes a number of things as it progresses.
Its a 140+m class frigate of around 7000 t class, with the same weapons systems
This is 2010 BAE video showing almost exactly whatlater became T26 when ordered.
https://youtu.be/10NEdVi5S5g
The true answer, not the ‘Conservative party politically correct’ one, is there wasnt much change from the initial gate to the final design , just 5-6 wasted years.
That is the time between the projected initial commissioning date of 2020 and the current one of 2027 or so.
“Monstrous”? Stop clutching your pearls dear.
Inadvertently your 2010 video “showing almost exactly what later became T26” proves my point within the first 20 seconds. There’s a HUGE change from the T26 in that video to what eventually turned out as T26. See if you can spot what it is……
Incidentally, that huge change was one of the reasons that drove the increase in beam I referred to. See if you can figure out why that was too.
One of the nice things about working where I have is that I have access to the general arrangement drawings for the concepts for what became T26, including the ones in the nineties and noughties, as well as what came out of NDP and then, eventually out of BAES. I also understand the level of design maturity that they represent.
A kit list in a presser to Jane’s does not represent a “design”. It’s a concept.
You too hold knowledge, maybe a good way forward is make contact with eachother and enlighten each other to the true facts of the subject, that way you instantly become winners of real facts, and maybe learn something from eachother, instead of mouthing off fiction.
I’m a Barrister and can read contracts. I’m also ex Para Reg who was let go under one of many strategic defence reviews. But yes, all political parties are the same with defence spending. However, look at the cost of Afghanistan on a weekly basis. It is eye watering! The forces will take decades to recover from that much spending. Which hurts after serving there and seeing it just handed back to an oppressive Taliban regime.
Hi Orsini, you really do have a very validated point, defence was not a priority to the government at the time, because becoming involved would mean spending money on something we need, but like most in government, they spend our money on things that they are involved in, either, sending millions out of the country to GIVE to other countries, for prestige, or refurbishing their own places of work. Say what you like about Boris Johnson, but to my understanding, he already ordered nine warships, did he not, and labour stopped it from going forward. They would have stopped the new high tech submarine if they could, but it was near to completion.
I must say that I am impressed, reading through your script, you have raised some good points, and placed it with truth. I have no way of knowing if the content of knowledge is based upon your own experience, or wether it is trawled through the internet, but nevertheless, it holds true bearing.
They have deleted my rebuttal. But Blair/ Brown had BAE T26 at ‘main gate’ contract in Jan 2010 just 4 months before the election which stopped everything.
You also forget that the last T45 Duncan was still on the stocks in Jan 2010 , as it was launched the old fashioned way in Oct 2010.
You cant build a new frigate class when the previous class is still under construction.
Launch pictures of HMS Duncan 11 Oct 2010
Type 26 frigates are replacing Type 23 frigates…nothing to do with HMS Duncan which is a Type 45 destroyer…
It was on the only BAE complex warship slipway till 11 Oct 2010, 6 months after the election.
ipso facto, another type couldn’t begin until Duncan slid onto the Clyde. It wasnt the current method of assembling modules on a flat yard.
Ahem. Remind me where the bow and large chunks of the superstructure for Duncan came from? Also, remind us where Daring was launched from?
Blame them for the political 2% of GDP defence budget limit. A budget which had no relationship whatsoever to requirement and in reality actual funding was gerrymandered even to meet that inadequate goal. Classic example of politicians who were too foolish to realise they were fools. And before you go on about how they were forced to make tough economic choices may I remind you that boosting foreign aid to 0.7% of GDP is also a choice.
Osbourne made the decision to include pensions and the CASD in the overall defence budget, whereas previously they were separately funded by the Treasury. The UK was under pressure to deliver on its 2% target from NATO. By including pensions and CASD, Osbourne was able to exceed the 2% target (2.1%) and save money because the full amount was never transferred.
Big number student politics.
It is all about the figure and not the output.
Far too much of it about.
They were funded separately but always counted when working out the % of GDP spent on Defence. And the definition of what can be counted was defined by NATO in the 1950’s and has barely changed… and it always included pensions.
We are an island
We are a seafaring nation
BUT
Now any Tom Dick or Mohammed can just be ferried across the channel with no checks and our national security compromised
Who needs a navy?
Sad but true
Ex 70’s stoker
2% would deliver a lot more if we had an active local MIC rather than a load of low energy / low efficiency coin clippers who care only about margin and not capability.
MOD / RN planning does not help but extra money will not help anybody until we can get the basics right.
T45 issues — no matter if there were 12 or 8 rather than 6 we do have they would still have broken down and littered the dockyard due to a lack of development and testing on their powertrain architecture.
The issue was the lack of a mild steel prototype to test the boat systems.
Could have had a second string career as a training ship if it was not up to front line duties.
Same for the carriers.
Same for the T26’s.
Glacial development them a cavalry charge is not the way to do design.
I agree the sooner we select leaders that have common sense, integrity and world experience the better we shall be. But we need to up the pay, at the moment we pay bird seed so we get chatter and nonsense and an IQ level that most share with the local insect population
Bit harsh Rob, don’t you think?. It is only his veiw point.
Well said
That Government will go down in history as one of the worst ones in the last 100 years.
They blindly trashed a whole range of public services (defence, police, justice, health) with no thought of the longer term implications for our country. Loads of experienced staff were let go, buildings and sites sold, building maintenance was delayed and investment in new technology cut.
Even with a ton of investment in the coming years, it will take a generation to re-build these services back to their former levels of effectiveness and efficiency.
It is ironic to see Trump’s minions slashing the budget slash VoA, a key source of soft power, given that the same was done by Osborne to the BBC World Service.
Well, I bet Russia and China very happy we’re abandoning the field to them.
I’d it must be pointed out, various governments of both parties have been cutting back on defence spending since the 1960s, think back to what John Knott did under Maggy Thatcher in the 1980s before AND after the Falklands war
I got a call from an old friend in the 1980’s who told me ‘Mate they are expecting us to do far more with less nowadays mostly because certain politicians think we are Supermen!”
He”s dead now heart ❤️ not long after his son died and all his friends said if he can die of heart problems none of us is safe.
Stewart. Your point is a plea for more spending. Wrapping it in an old friend who addresses you as “mate” from the 1980s who along with his son are both dead, the latter from a heart attack and then adding a chorus by friends who all happen to say the same thing. Makes it look like it was written by AI based on a “ get impact” request.
The conservatives have been in power 33 of the last 46 years.
I understand the current labour government is a mess but the conservatives have not only underfunded defence.
They’re also responsible for the state of the NHS, underfunded councils, uncontrolled immigration, brexit, massive covid giveaway loans that haven’t been clawed back.
In 14 years they’ve destroyed the UK
They also tried to halt the Aircraft carrier alliance but it was too far on when they took power in 2010
Consecutive governments, for decades, have diminished our defence forces capabilities. They have relied, too much on our ‘ big brother’ ie USA to protect us.
Well, the chickens have come home to roost and unfortunately, there is no coop for them. The government has cut the Coop building budget! In short, they have been caught with their trousers down. More Admirals than ships, more Generals than tanks and less planes for the pilots to fly.
If they, the governments, were employed as productive workers; they would have been ‘ up the road’ years ago.
I’m sorry, I have to stop now because I have to go and vote!!!
100% correct. Cameron and his Oxbridge maladaptive dysfunctional Hooray Henry’s systematically destroyed the UK’s Defences. Cut Cut Cut Cut Cut Cut..”The war is on the economy” blah.
Your photo says “The effects of six months in the ocean are clearly evident” but I would worry the real effects are going to be on the crew and won’t be evident for while to come.
Exactly, very concerning for both physical and mental health of the crew. There’s a link between lack of vitamin D and developing MS so potentially putting crews at greater risk of physical ill health and chronic conditions. And the navy wonders why everyone is leaving!
Don’t join the RN nuke fleet if that is your problem, mental instability. No get a job in a insurance company office & let boredom lull you to sleep after your evening watching Netflix what a load of woke horse droppings.
Mark,
Do you have family serving on these boats ?
Maybe, just maybe you are not giving much consideration to them if so. If not, then you may be rather ill-informed. Commenting about these young people’s well being and expressing a concern deserves reasoned response.
With Regards joining the Nuke fleet, it is most probable, (incidentally same as in my youth), not quite as voluntary as you presume ?
Don’t talk rubbish you know and I know joining the submarine service and serving on boats is totally voluntary.And no one is press ganged into service .Todays military aren’t protecting us anymore .Not one conflict lately has been about protecting us .Afghanistan / Iraq etc etc Has made us considerably less safe .Procy wars for the elite to make money from .And now interfering in a conflict that has nothing to do with us .NATO sabre rattling to make themselves relevant .Remember NATO did not come to our aid during the falklands .And a NATO member sold excites (France ) To Argentina .During the conflict .That killed members of my family .And not that it matters because the opinion of civvies. Is more then relevant .As they pay for the services .I did serve .Sad thing is we couldn’t take the Falklands back like we did .If the it occurred in the same scenario’s as the first conflict.We can’t even Put our a carrier group out without major help from foreign nations ( not enough support ships )And it’s joke that the planes are basically leased .And if America.Stopped the parts etc .the carrier fleet would be unserviceable as a going concern .Dire state of affairs all round .Fubar in fact
Entirely voluntary ….
Not sure Drafty see it that way. But let’s agree to disagree.
The points regarding submariners and time at sea are the topic.
Dave, I hate to p**s on your cornflakes but that’s not entirely true anymore. Classes of ME/WE’s at Collingwood are being split down the middle and voluntold they are now going submariner. Allegedly this is being done after their PVR date deliberately.
*Sultan
As a volunteer diesel submariner for 30 years I can assure that service in submarines is NOT entirely voluntary I served with many who were press ganged!
The space goes after the full stop,not before.
Why if this important? Because it makes you look less like a idiot. And therefore? You’re more likely likely to be taken seriously. These small details DO matter.
Same goes for commas!
Serving on boats might be totally voluntary now but it wasn’t in 1977 when I was plucked from the comfort of general service to join the submarine service. I didn’t look back though and probably did better for it.
FYI serving in the submarine service is not necessarily voluntary.
Recruitment and retention is difficult, and I’m sure this will only get worse as long deployments continue.
Some sailors volunteer – others are ordered to go.
My daughter is a submariner – she volunteered but many do not…no doubt adding to the distress of lengthy patrols.
I agree with other commentators that this is largely a political issue + I doubt that any of our politicians would contemplate a week below the waves, let alone 1/2 a year !
Commenting on long deployments being ‘record breaking’ as if this is a positive achievement is, sadly, in the same league as banging saucepans for the NHS during Covid.
Hear hear
Ever wonder why there’s no pictures of the crew embracing family etc? I can only imagine what the lack of nutrition and sunlight has done to them after so long. Wouldn’t be a great PR stunt posting their faces for the Government/RN.
You think it’d be a wise decision to publicly post photos of the faces of submariners who serve in our SSBNs??
Suprised you’re not suggesting doing the same for Special Forces too 🤦🏻♂️
These extended patrol durations cannot be good for manpower retention. It was tough enough on family life doing 6 / 7 month deployments in general service where we could communicate with home easily and regularly. Being submerged and out of contact for so long must be a huge strain
Hello, just picked up this conversation and really have to say that it was normal practice to be serving I our, then, overseas stations, Far East, SA – SA, Mediterranean.
The deployments were always at least a year and could be 16 months. No Internet just good old pen and paper and BFPO.
Joined 1958, me thinks you’ve never had it so good! 😜
I know the crew get heavily censored messages from home and bad news is hidden, but wondering how you keep that going for 6+ months. If the innocuous line “Granny came for lunch” is missing means Granny has died or some more complex code phrases. Then what if partner dies or splits, whether the censors have to keep making things up? This also links to are they actually surfacing to take crew off?
Times had story today of South African scientists in Antarctica for the winter and one has gone rogue. Do they need to get him out or drop help to manage him.
Just wondering how they manage to hide bad news for 6+ months and if they do surface to take anyone off.
Original longer version of this has disappeared- I presume a word not acceptable but no idea which.
Before they go on patrol the crew fill in a questionnaire asking what their choice is in the event of bad news. For instance if their is a death in the family they can request to be told immediately, upon surfacing or return to base
The skipper still has discretion over it though and has to assess if passing on bad news immediately could be damaging to morale, safety or operational effectiveness.
I was deisel s/mer but had many friends in Polaris boats. One of them told me of an amusing incident. 3 guys very friendly as we’re the wife’s. Each guy on the same broadcast received the message : ‘One of us is pregnant’!
After such a long time at sea (under the sea) how long would there leave be?
2 weeks, then it’s annual leave taken in conjuction with counterparts to ensure support is still delivered where required.
I think your information is incorrect here. Longest deployment was 251 days from June 21 – Feb 22. This was a different SSBN than the one returning today.
Many of the submariners will going back to empty homes or base accommodation. They have one one of the highest divorce rates of any profession! Have to say, they have been betrayed by both the Royal Navy and Government! Deterrence has a higher cost than just money!
That is really sad my other half is a sub mariner and although I will miss when he goes to sea I will be bloody well making sure I’m home waiting for him its his job and passion takes a strong mindset to be with a sub mariner I think doesn’t it
The logic of ordering a fifth Dreadnought appear overwhelming
All
Key points – all of which I have raised before – but all of which now need reiterating:
And very interesting that the USN is changing its old habits….
US Nuclear Submarine Surfaces Off Norway in Rare Flex – Business Insider
USS Florida arrives in Tromsø > U.S. Fleet Forces Command > News Stories
The Dambusters brand new F35 went to the bottom of the Med (i.e. a new entry to the Goldfish club) during CSG 21 – in full view of the TV cameras (note 2) – because of
Finally-BZ guys
Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
Did the F35 pilot join the Goldfish club though, as he landed on the ship?
The plane itself was assessed as having suffered from very severe rising damp – and thus was written off
Pilot – You are not quite correct.
What happened was:
And that redundant protruding light fitting should have been removed during the previous ship refit……… however “somebody in the dockyard forgot”
Interestingly the pilot did a TV interview before being medically assessed.
He looked remarkably calm for somebody whom had, just a few minutes earlier, almost been run over by an 80,000 ton aircraft carrier (whilst dangling on the end of a few bits of string!)
Nope, He was taking Off.
Will you sail it?
Very interesting article, thanks. One of your previous articles mentions a patrol in 2021 by HMS Victorious which was 207 days long. Obviously this is longer than 201 days for the patrol you’re writing about here. What’s the issue behind the contradiction – new information, error in counting up the days, something else?
Apologies, getting conflicting information on number of days
Ask the Commodore for Submarines office they will keep you correct.
Dreadnought should be five boats as a minimum. Four never worked. Four requires “luck” as well as impeccable timing and superb judgement. If we’re looking at a more uncertain future with a loss of trust across the Atlantic, five is the lowest credible number.
The French manage with four but I haven’t looked at the detail – hint to Navy Lookout – and may not be a fair comparison anyway. I’ve been sceptical for a while that CASD really is Continuous – especially with the resurfacing to resupply stories.
Somehow can’t see Rachel from Accounts approving the 5th boat and she will say fix the other issues. Increasing complexity and difficulty getting anything done, could mean that boat 5 becomes a necessity.
Maybe the French manage with four because they keep getting told the Brits manage with four. This is not one of those situations where we should be comparing and contrasting.
They also have air-launched nuclear missiles.
Who will sail the fifth?
If some of this budget increase is not spent on personnel retention by improving pay, conditions, accommodations and career options, then it will be wasted. However, in this specific case, five boats would permit shorter cruises (just as more frigates and destroyers would permit shorter deployments of 4 or 5 months, rather than the current expectation of up to 9). Shorter cruises means fewer problems at home and less chance of physical and mental fatigue among the crew, which translates into more crew signing on to stay in and thus, the force retaining that experience and expertise. That, plus better conditions and shorter cruises elevates the entire organisation and makes it a more attractive prospect for new recruits to choose as a branch.
But they can’t stop Dingies reaching out shore !!
Bore off…
Idiot you should be nuked.
My great grandfather was in the navy all his life from a boy sailor, until he was killed on HMS Prince of Wales by the Japanese WW2 My great grandmother who live 98 years used to get upset with people moaning today about the length of Navy deployment 3 months upwards, my grandfather used to do with his shipmates 2 years at a time.
There’s a massive difference between surface deployment and Deterrence. Even in the 40s there was still much better communication between ship and family than there is to the subs. That combined with the fact the A boats should not take on stores, as explained in the article, they shouldn’t pull deployments longer than a couple of months.
Agreed. It’s an incredibly high stress environment in which to do an already difficult job. To then require them to operate at the very edge of critical failure all the time during peace (never mind war) by having slightly fewer boats than they need, with no reserve in case of failure/malfunction/error, has been and continues to be a form of politically mandated insanity.
Defence budget needs to rise to 3 percent of GDP immediately and continue to rise until the country is rearmed. That also means instead of the four SSBNs there should be a fifth. Four aging boats has stretched the service thin. A fifth one would cost a lot but also be a lot cheaper when they’re still being built than trying to change it after production has finished.
Nope it should rise to a minimum of 5 percent of GDP. Stop funding to net zero 30 billions, overseas aid 15 billions, illegal immigrants on PIPS 8 billions and plus many more.
Ps defence’s comes first. NO 1
Tax you 100%
And go to the Admiral’s pocket.
Having served in the U.S. Army and Navy I say these images and just all of it is sad. Support your military and loved ones. People talk sooo much trash/rubbish but are not willing to serve…God speed together 🇺🇸🇬🇧💪🏽💪
Well said. And despite the current fustercluck in the Whitehouse, to (mis) quote Cpt Josiah Tattnall, blood is still thicker than water.
Dulce et Decorum Est.
Why is a British submarine flying a English flag in Scotland
It’s the white ensign. It protects all of the UK.
Please tell me you’re joking!
Military awareness is very low these days – many families have no veterans in the family. Navy Days and most airshows have gone, along with many bases.
Has to be the most ignorant question ever asked on NL… 🤦🏻♂️
To all the p***takers – if you look carefully there are actually two flags there, overlapped. One is the white ensign, the other is a plain red cross on a white background.
Although it looks the same as the English flag, when worn by a RN vessel, it denotes that an admiral is on board. In this case, it is the flag of Admiral Ben Key (First Sea Lord), who went on board to welcome the ship’s company back home.
Poor crew. That’s the result of man power shortages and failing equipment. Those boats should of been decommissioned years ago. Ask yourself why so many submariners are leaving?
A couple of months away on patrol is hard enough. Our longest absence from home base was 7 months back in the 70’s but we were diesel- electric not nuclear and our longest time dived ( but periscope depth for charging batteries) was only 5 days, not 5 months. Now that would be very hard.
It was! 10 years earlier NATO boats filled the Iceland Faroes gap. Patrols mainly submerged were typically 14 16 weeks.
I sometimes wonder whether a plasma arc waste disposal system that turns gash to gas would be suitable for use on submarines. Perhaps disolve the gas in sea water before expelling it. USS Ford has one and the manufacturers claim its scalable. I wonder if that would save space or not. If the space taken by a day’s waste isn’t much more than that taken by a day’s food, probably not.
I have to “agree to disagree” with both of you….
The “root causes” of these issues are NOT any of the following:
Budget
As I have pointed out before, several times here on NL, today’s RN submarine fleet – so the total budget supporting less than a dozen commissioned nuclear submarines now in service – always consumes about half of the RN’s total annual budget every year (say about £4 billion).
Number of V Boats
And lets not forget that – from the very start of the CASD patrols in the very late 1960’s right though to the early 1990’s – the UK only ever had four R-class boats.
And that cold war CASD deterrent was always maintained: despite one RN R class boat almost being sunk – by burning bogrolls – in the 1980’s
In the 1980’s, so before the final design and total numbers of todays V-boats was beinng finalised, a very complete review of all earlier CASD patrols was undertaken (at the insistence of Mrs T: an university trained chemist)
That study showed that four V boats would be, given proper engieering TLC
Indeed the RN was so confident about those numbers that, in the early 1990’s, the RN actually published those figures.
(i.e an early result of the lifting of secrecy following the peace diividend. Before that, one could be shot for offically admitting that the the UK CASD even existed!)
TODAY
In other words, if one if one is a “good chap”, it really does not matter whether one knows, or does not, know the top end of the nuclear reactor from the bottom end (note 1)…however one still gets promoted on buggins turn………
So, what has changed?
Throughout the orginal cold war (1945-1990) the RN had a very big crutch to lean on – it was called the USN’s technical and engineering expertise.
Furthermore on many occasions, thr RN operational fleet was so well coordinated with the USN that it was in reality more aligned with the USN submarine force than it was with the RN own surface fleet! (which the RN submariners thought was only useful for their regular target parctice)
In particular, the USN’s top bastard – Admiral Rickover – simply never allowed any slippage whatsoever of any reactor safety and general submarine engineering standards
…..either in the USN nor in the RN
(Remember: the UK uses US reactor “tech”)
————
The sad truth of the matter is that, as of today
Far too many very senior RN officers honestly believe that they do not “need to know” nuclear engineering (ie policy of “ignorance is bliss”).
We are trying to run (note 2) a modern “high-tech” navy with very-old-fashioned “low-tech” senior officers
I’m guessing that wasn’t supposed to be a reply to my left-of-field musing.
Jon
Mine was definitely not a reply to you
= and the really big clue is because I wrote “Andrew and Jim” across the top!
—————–
I have no idea about your proposed gash disposal system…….
However a plasma arc system (PAS) sounds really interesting – especially with all of that “surplus” electic power being available from an SSN’s reactor……..
Do you think PAS will ever replace conventional torpedos?
Peter (Irate Taxpayer)
The ‘Exploitation of The Peace Dividend’ has remained constant, for Thousands of Years.
As soon as War Stops the “Penny-Pinchers” appear – clutching Clipboards & Calculators.
The scene: Sumeria, 5,000 BC. Royal Clerk to grizzled Old Army Sweat: ‘Well, you’ve got TWO Spears … do you Really Need Two?’
People forget Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus’s tract –
”Dē Rē Mīlitārī (fourth or fifth century AD), in which the actual phrasing is: ”Igitur quī dēsīderat pācem, præparet bellum” (“Therefore let him who desires peace prepare for war”)
History has proved, Time & Time again … IF YOU YOU ARE KNOWN – AND SEEN TO BE – STRONG, BULLIES LEAVE YOU BE.
No one likes spending scarce money on Defense.
And, in a Sane and Peaceful World, it would not be necessary.
Sadly, this current World becomes more Unstable and Dangerous by the Day.
If you value Your Family, Peace & Country’s Life and Society, and would continue to enjoy all, You Must Be Prepared To Fight For It.
Sadly, too many of Our Younger Generation, are quite happy to enjoy their life of comfort and ease, as long as someone else does the Fighting & Dying … witness the attitude to Ukraine … Our Current Front Line Of Defence.
Me lord, I rest my case.
And, don’t forget … ‘The Toughest of The Tough’ are Married Men … They’re Used To Casual Violence (I can show Scars!)
Governments cut defence spending because they can – the electorate are generally not interested until the brown stuff hits, when it is far too late. Frigates can’t be built overnight (although the MoD and BAe between them take the p#ss). Skills take a generation to build effectively but a few short years to lose.
I’ve written to my MPs over the years, on defence-related matters, many found the topic frustrating and one honest example said [I’m paraphrasing here] “There are no votes in defence”.
Very interesting read.
I still think that a lot of people don’t fully understand that Submariners have a different mindset. I’d be very surprised to find out if any crewman on this tour had anything other to say than ‘that was a long one’ (probably using more colourful language), got their kit together and just went home, maybe via the pub. The mission always comes first, they are called the ‘silent service’ and not just because being quiet is essentially what they have to do. I’ll hand over the soapbox to someone else now. ‘We come unseen’.
Just because they don’t say anything doesn’t mean they aren’t affected. Unless you’ve done a patrol of this length, maybe leave the soapbox alone permanently.
Reading through all your comments and view points, I have realised, you all don’t get it, do you. You all discuss the given issue, you all view your beliefs, you all say that the government is not looking into the future. Yet, after talking and sometimes getting hot over a given topic, what do you all do…. Yes, you all just talk, and talk, you argue over your different views and wishes, you want change, in your own arguments, you agree to change, and yet, who is the idiots here, the government for doing the wrong thing, or in some cases, doing nothing at all, or is the real idiot, US, because all we do is talk. How many of you have written to your PM?, how many of you, have voiced on a government level?, how many of you, have done anything at all?. I bet very little of you have done nothing but and talk, and I bet further, after reading this, I bet you all keep talking and doing nothing, instead of calling eachother and the government, ask yourselves, truthfully, why do you think we are where we are right now, maybe, just maybe, we are in this state of affairs, because that’s all we do, we just talk….
The only thing sensible that government can do is provide more money NOW. Not commit to it in two years time. NOW. That’s the only message that’s worth passing on to government and your MP. It’s the only one I bother with. Anything else distracts them. So about everything else I come to sites like this and talk.
Total respect to the sub- mariners. We owe you all a great gratitude.👍
My God that deployment is just ridiculous.. And the Royal Navy wonders. Why it cannot deploy it s ships due to a lack of sailors. Who the hell would sign up for that?
Interesting that this RN submarine returned to its home port on the same day that the two astronauts returned from their (unplanned) long-term trip up to visit the International Space Station
Those astronauts had full medical tests before leavin Earth: and, again, upon their return to Earth
Nasa astronauts: What nine months in space does to the human body – BBC News
Now, admittedly, those astronauts were operating in zero-gravity- however they could see out (which submariners cannot)
I would bet that – if the RN did those very-same “before and after” NASA medical tests on their submariners (i.e. comparision of the before and after tests on the whole crew involved in a six-month CASD cruise)
…..that those very-same medical tests would show a very severe reduction in this boat crew’s reaction times…….
Fatigue always does that…. without anybody really noticing….
Sorry to disappoint everyone but there’s zero chance of a fifth dreadnought, politicians want defence on the cheap! ie.Aicraft Carriers with few plane’s & Marines with no ships,.To put it bluntly were still reliant on the US! Our only option if we don’t use TRIDENT IS A WHITE FLAG!