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Andrew Barnes

Great news! Has the weapons fit been confirmed yet???

Andy

Two straws for plastic darts and a sign saying I’ll get my big cousin to come beat you up.

Gareth

…and twin 3mm spud guns

dick van dyke

It will be designed for but not built with much of the scary stuff but at some point in the future it will probably gain some pretty hefty clout.

Jack65

I so dislike the term fitted for, but not with. The RN seems to be the only Navy happy with that concept. These ships need to be credible vessels in an era where our potential foes are arming theirs to the teeth. A hull mounted sonar, plus 24 x Sea Ceptor, a credible ASM and wildcat would make all the difference…..

dick van dyke

Indeed mate, I was watching a Wildcat today doing sales related stunts over the airfield, looks like some new bits were fitted.

Nigel Collins

Could these be the new bits you’re referring to?

“Two UK Royal Navy (RN) Leonardo Wildcat HMA2 maritime helicopters are on loan to the UK Army Air Corps (AAC) to assess the potential of operating the helicopter’s Seaspray radar in the over-land role.”

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/dsei-2021-uk-army-air-corps-demos-radar-equipped-wildcat-helicopter

dick van dyke

Not quite mate, I think it was a Battlefield Recon version, it had a different look to the front and a long protruding Pole/mast/radar which was to one side…. from the distance i was watching it, it just looked different than most Wildcats.

Tim Hirst

If you look at the history of the Danish base class it is an example of “for not with” at service entry.

David Broome

Sadly the RNZN has that crown. The longest range ASM are Ex-RAN penguins that came with ex RAN seasprites.

X

I don’t dislike the names. I just don’t like like the marketing, happy clappy-iness thinking behind the Inspiration class idea.

N-a-B

First things first. This is good news and good progress from Babcocks.

It is definitely an achievement to get to this stage in the just under two years since contract award. Now comes the hard part – can they control a build, which is far more than just the steelwork for the hull, such that all the relevant activities can be conducted in parallel and deconflicted?

It will get very interesting when the main machinery spaces have to be block built and outfitted, prior to closing up – particularly wrt cabling and inspection / acceptance for electrickery and piping systems.

DaSaint

Well since this is based on the Danish parent-ship design, it really shouldn’t be that hard to build these large, flat plate ships, even if modified for RN standards vs commercial standards.

N-a-B

That’ll be the design that contributed to bankruptcy of its yard? That one?

Plenty of curvature in that hullform, but of course that has little or no bearing on outfitting. Which is the difficult bit.

MikeKiloPapa

No , the design that actually made the yard money. Odense Steel Shipyard broke even on the second Iver Huitfeldt class and made a decent profit on the last.

As to the OSS , its fate was sealed at least a decade before they started building frigates as they had been operating in the red since the late 90’s and was only kept open by the owner, the very patriotic Mærsk Mckinney Møller. When he stepped down as chairman/CEO the yard was promptly closed.

OSS tried to stay competitive in containership building through extensive automation but in the end could not match the low cost (and state subsidized) asian yards, and tried to convert to specialty vessel but it was to late by then.

PeterDK

Well said. For the record, the yard is still operating, albeit under different ownership and only doing maintenance, repair and off-shore work.

N-a-B

So just like H&W, a ship repair yard. Not a build yard.

Plus the fact that much of the STW and commissioning was done by the RDN. Profit on assembly, possibly. If only that was all that was involved in building a ship…..

Binocs

I found this interesting re the parent ship design standard. Approximately 23m30s in.
https://youtu.be/O1rg3Qa3FpU

Last edited 28 days ago by Binocs
Ron5

Unfortunately that gentleman and his sales pitch had very little credibility when he toured the US pumping the IH design. Probably based on the exaggerated claims on how cheap the ship would be to build.

That lack of credibility flowed into the Canadian frigate competition where they were thrown out at an early stage.

RMJ

Aboukir, Hogue or Cressy might be more appropriate names given lack of ASW capabilities, amongst other deficiencies!

stephen ball

paolo thaon di reval going though sea trial’s. It’s a light one at 4880T costing 577M Euro that’s £492M. 16 cell Aster or Camm-er. 1, 127mm 1, 76mm 2, 25mm.

dick van dyke

Type that again ?

stephen ball

Thaon di reval class Italy. But there’s 3 different types Light, Light plus, and Full.

Thaon di Revel-class offshore patrol vessel – Wikipedia

There a lot of fitted for but not with. So maybe the first one the paolo thaon de reval even hasn’t got the 16 cell.

Last edited 28 days ago by stephen ball
Paul T

With the sale of the Two last FREMM for the MM to Egypt, there may be good reason for even the PPA Light Ships to be up-specked to at least Light+ configuration in lieu of FREMM new builds.

stephen ball

The French have got.

Frégate de défense et d’intervention – Wikipedia

4460T at 440M Euro.

Paul.P

I’m guessing that in a swarm attack scenario a package of 16 Aster missiles, one 76mm OTO and 2x20mm is inferior to system of 12 cold launched Sea Ceptors, one 57mm and 2x40mm all shooting programmable ammunition. I think the RN have thought this through.

AlexS

Well the 127mm can also fire…and 76mm has guided ammunition that is also efficent against swarms.

Paul.P

Agree both OTO guns are very good; effective against swarms as you say. There is an ORKA guided round for the 57mm.

AlexS

Is the ORKA round already in service?

Paul.P

Dunno. Quick trawl of the web gets design announcements in 2015 and a test video in 2016.

donald_of_tokyo

USN uses ALaMO 57 mm guided rounds, not ORKA. Already nearly 4000 rounds are contracted.

Paul.P

Thx.

Paul.P

Looks like DoT is on top of this subject. I’m seeing the 57mm and the 76mm as roughly equivalent, give or take. But T31 looks to be significantly better equipped than the French and Italian offerings as regards the smaller guns: 2x40mm Bofors and 2x DS30M would give the ship better ability to fire against asymmetric threats; to more effectively control a bay or harbour for example.

AlexS

Note that neither guns in T31 appear to be radar directed while in Italian ship they are.

Anyone knows how the ALaMO is guided? The 76 turret that are capable to guide the Dart/Strales have a radio antena inside.

—-
The biggest structural difference i see between 57 and 76 is that 76 is water cooled while 57 is not. In theory should gives more sustained fire to the 76.

AlexS

From the look of it, the AlaMO round seem to be only against slow targets: swarms either in air and sea, not anti missile like Strales/Dart
The guidance appears to be in the round and it might be a more evolved proximity fuze that is capable of giving orders for the aerodynamic devices in the round to deviate near the target.

Last edited 26 days ago by AlexS
Paul.P

This looks like a fast evolving area. Apparently there is a successor to ALaMO called MADFires.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/07/video-darpa-mad-fires-anti-ship-missile-self-defense-for-lcs-ffgx/

AlexS

They don’t tell much. What is the guidance?

Paul.P

No idea. Its a missile fired from a gun. All I can find on the DARPA web site is that the program objectives are ‘extreme precision, reduction of cost by a factor of 10 ‘, ( compared to RIM-116 I think) and surface/air capability against swarms.

DJE

The 57mm and both 40mm can be guided by the NS110 radar. They gain a partial CIWS function by having their own dedicate director, which they do, in the Thales Mirador EO system. I believe there is a future option to have the Thales STIR-EO system with a dedicated director for each 40mm should the RN choose to go down that route.

AlexS

EO are not all weather systems.

AlexS

French FDI are not 440M Euro. They are comparable to the price of a French FREMM.
That is one of reason that is a lot of criticism in French defence industry. The other is that abandoning the FREMM design in 2016 they saw Fincantieri several success with it.

Ron5

He’s saying the Italian PPA frigate, even in its lower spec version, is a much more capable warship at a comparable price.

Tim Hirst

They are all a lot more than £250m.

donald_of_tokyo

T31 also is a lot more than £250m.

£250m does not include GFX. At least, SeaCeptor is NOT included.

Including everything, the program cost of T31 is £2B, which means £400M per unit. Not bad, but far from £250M.

Sean

Because they won’t need to buy Sea Ceptor for the T31. They’ll simply be transferring Sea Ceptor across from the T23s that are being retired. The plan was always to keep the price down to £250m by transferring across equipment that was fitted to T23 at LIFEX.

Tim Hirst

True, but far less was transferred the some thought would be.

donald_of_tokyo

Not exactly.

1: Ref. T31RFI, originally it was £1.25B for all, including GFX, many supports, training and so on. Now it is £2B in total, 60% increase, as noted in NAO report. So, when someone says, “T31 is £250M per unit in its start“, now it is “£400M per unit” in the same definition. The definition of “unit cost” has been moved, when referring to “£250M”. This is what I meant.

Similarly, if someone says “£1.2B ave. for T26”, the nearly equal number for T31 is “£400M”, not “£250M”. Cost figure relevant to “£250M of T31” is not known for T26.

2: MOD (not Babcock) contracted Sea Ceptor system for T31 with MBDA. It included Sea Ceptor system integration to TACTICOS CMS (You cannot “rip off” the software from a T23 and freely install it on a T31)

CAMM canister is never included in the cost. Its covered by complex weapon budget, as I understand. It is just “CAMM ammo.” rotating among the ships. The launcher is just a tube with shock absorber and the “mushroom” hat, and maybe nothing to “reuse” (other than the hat?).

A Launch management system (a box controlling up to 12 CAMM) and 2 data-link antenna are also NOT included in the £250M, as I understand (I suspect many of the parts are re-used from not executing LIFEX of HMS Monmouth, on which HMG has already payed for)

3: Transferring gears from a ship to another is off course not for free. Ripping of the gears safely, refurbish it, mount it on the new ship, and then, wiring everything, integration into CMS, and certify it with intensive verification process. Of course, the latter part (integration/verification) is the most costy part.

In short, T31 average cost is £400M, not £250M. The latter number lacks many aspects.

Last edited 28 days ago by donald_of_tokyo
Ron5

Very good Donald-san.

Last edited 28 days ago by Ron5
dick van dyke

I don’t think many people thought the £250 million figure was achievable really.

Reaper

Sonar? 4.5 inch? Would they not be better to add?

Reaper

Wouldnt a single sea Ram suit the type 31?

Paul T

Obviously you can’t compare Fincantieri to Babcock’s but they are certainly being built quickly, 3 are in the Water already.

AlexS

I don’t understand the “but” Fincantieri is the bigest shipbuilding company in Europe and the only European one in first 10 in the world.

They have much more shipbuilding capacity than Babcock.

Duker

Subsidies are a primary product, even the Fincantieri Marinette Marine in Wisconsin shipyard gets them

AlexS

Fincantieri builds a lot of ships all over the world, they are healthy. They have like 40 cruise ships being build or on order. 6 high profile cruise ships will be launched this year.
For example Cunards Queen Elizabeth and Queen Victoria were build by them and their next big cruise ship is also ordered from them.

Mike

That is one fugly ship. But where is the 96 cell silo? Where is the 16 cannister anti ship missile. Where are the side mounted 16 inch guns?

In all seriousness, in todays market place, the t31 is looking like a well thought out ship, that looks value for money fir its expected role, that gas capacity for growth, and that will enable more decent hulks in the water.

People need to relax a but and be thankful that the rn is growing long term

dick van dyke

“Gas capacity Fir and Hulks” you say….. I’m “relaxing my But” at this very moment just laughing at your post mate. 🙂

Mike

Darn predictive text when using fat fingers on a phone 🤣

But having some Hulks in the water could be useful. Who needs missiles when you can just smash!

I hope your But is enjoying its relax. However, depending on your location, I would not relax it too much. 💩 😱

X

I just said they ain’t pretty.

Reaper

Should atleast add the type 45s sonar that was taken off recently , or the 23s

AlexS

The Italian Navy call intead of “bridge” “cockpit.” so yes… 🙂

At least all of them have AESA fixed panel radars.

The Plus version will have the new ABM Aster version with C and X band AESA.

Last edited 27 days ago by AlexS
X

The Italian are working towards a well balanced fleet with firepower. 4 more SSK’s would just top it off.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3rc1soXwAQdZHr?format=jpg&name=large

Last edited 26 days ago by X
AlexS

It is good but i think they should have got more submarines.

X

How many? I did say 4 more SSK’s.

AlexS

I think 8 subs are too small number.

X

They have 4. They are building 4 at the end of the decade. And I say they need 4 more. 🙂

Turkey does have a lot more. 🙁

Reaper

Turkey also has far more fighter jets than the RAF and far bigger Army.

Paul T

If all of those Ships get built that’s an impressive Fleet by anyone’s standards .

AlexS

EPC – European Patrol Corvette are still in limbo. The big destroyers 10000t are already confirmed.

From the list, they need to build the 2 big DDXs, EPC’s, 2 FREMM (since they sold 2 to Egypt), 3 LPD. Finish the PPA order and 2 LSS.

Last edited 24 days ago by AlexS
Reaper

What an ugly ship… the enemy and allies would just want to sink this due to it being disgusting looking…

AlexS

Hehe, or run away 🙂

Ron5

Is it really a fully digital design?

To produce one in a couple of years with a design group with very limited experience, would be an amazing achievement.

stephen ball

The Iver Huitfeldt class on the last ship the Niels Juel got built within 1 year.

N-a-B

No. Really, it didn’t.

But you can build a frigate in about 2 and a half if you know what you’re doing.

MikeKiloPapa

It took exactly a year from Niels Juel was laid down until it was launched, and 11 month later it was commisioned in the RDN. Ofc it took a couple years more to reach FOC after that.

N-a-B

So well over a year then. More like two or three. Only a halfwit equates launch with completion of build.

Last edited 28 days ago by N-a-B
OOA

Why so bad mannered?

dick van dyke

Obviously frustrated with certain comments is my guess.

N-a-B

When you’ve actually done it for a living, you get tired of the people who think wiki is a source of truth.

stephen ball

Pretty sure everybody uses Keel laying as the formal recognition of construction

Unless you want everybody turning up to watch a bolt being made.

N-a-B

So you think “launched” equates to built????

Keel laid tends to be supplanted these days by start of construction / first steel cut. Which is what the plasma cutter in the picture is doing – first plate for the ship, likely part of the CL girder.

Last edited 28 days ago by N-a-B
stephen ball

I thought the German MTU engines are ordered and are being built atm.

Guess its a case of chicken or the egg.

Piping for water/waste etc been ordered and are being built.

N-a-B

The donks are what you call Long-lead items. They’ll come from MTU normal stocks (ie MTU tend to have a number of engines in build at one time, which are allocated as orders come in) for that type and rating, but will need to be in the yard to go in the machinery blocks before the block is closed up.

I doubt they’ve started the water piping systems yet – not least because they won’t have completed the production drawings for the individual pipes. That’s not the same as a supplier being identified and a contract awarded.

Last edited 28 days ago by N-a-B
Meirion x

Hello N-a-B, any idea of what building the steel plasma cutter is in? Is it an existing building, or newly built?

Last edited 18 days ago by Meirion x
dick van dyke

Not too many “Keels being laid” anymore mate….. and bolts are glued now, or so I’ve read !

stephen ball

Yes I know but the term still used same as laid down for 1st block.

Supportive Bloke

Trouble is I think people on here still think naval ships are built WW2 style in that a hull is put together and then fitted out. Where riveting the hull together was the hard part!

Rather than most of the pipes and bigger bits being put in as each segment is fabricated and assembled.

It is getting that whole choreography together that is the hard bit. Making the outer hull as a stand alone is comparatively simple.

Half the reason for the size growth is the sheer amount of ‘stuff’ that goes into a modern warship. The tighter the stuff is packed together the harder it is to build or modify.

AlexS

Yes, but in WW2 only after the launch were installed the heavy turrets, and pretty much all of superstructure was still to be build.

Todays almost all superstructure is already build at launch time, but radars, electronics, weapon system many times are only installed after the launch.

So in both cases a ship is not finished by their launch.

stephen ball

What! most ships are pre built with power cables in.

AlexS

This is HMS Daring being launched. Does look like it is complete?

😉

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y9zzO3XVpE

N-a-B

Actually, cabling is the hardest bit to do and is a limiter on block build. If you’ve ever seen people running cables on a ship you’d understand how intrusive the process is.

Reaper

Not to mention the sheer length… HMS Queen Elizabeth alone has 250,000km of electrical cables and 8,000km of fibre optics… Bloody nuts…

Duker

The US production line build in WW2 especially for DE types meant they were launched from the slipway, ready or not.

MikeD

Re the actual steel cutting: I am grateful for the Government’s commitment to build these ships but I am sad to say that as photo opportunities go, this is an example of the double standards practiced by our political masters. The only person in the photograph not wearing some kind of helmet is the Defence Secretary – No doubt a Guardsman’s head is made of thicker stuff than the rest of us.

Last edited 28 days ago by MikeD
dick van dyke

That makes you Sad ? Blimey mate, I can think of a lot of other things to make you sad.

dick van dyke

Is there any info on T32 yet ? as in proper specs not peoples own guesswork.

N-a-B

No – and there won’t be for some time yet. There is as yet no endorsed requirement for the ship, let alone detailed specifications.

Couple of years is my guess.

Last edited 28 days ago by N-a-B
dick van dyke

Thanks, I do search around quite often but as you say, nothing firm yet.

Chris

I think I’m right in saying that there was due to be a national shipbuilding strategy refresh this year which has now been pushed back to next year. I’d expect some more detail in that, but in terms of requirements and specifications it’ll be a few years yet I’d imagine.

X

The way things are going it will be first RN ship FFBNW anything……..

Ron5

I suspect you mean FFBNW everything.

dick van dyke

I think you might have a fine point too but the way things are going !

dick van dyke

lol……

Reaper

FFBNW radar, computers ect at this rate.

Paulsp12

It’s just a shame that there are only five, perhaps if the built 15 or 25 the cost would be nearer 250m per ship, there could be a variety of fit outs since they are modular. Some for carrier protection some for general purpose etc. 10 ships could very easily come from the foreign aid budget since these ships will end up being deployed for this purpose anyway

Joe King

ummm yes but in reality that ain’t happening.

Asxah@hotmail.co

2 right maybe if we could have a second set of 5 made or a convay group formed that would help alot

Reaper

10 type 32s to replace all the MCMVs would be nice, or 8 would be fine.

Andy L

Not to fit a hull mounted sonar is the most stupid decision given they will be counted in the 19 escorts. We are producing an escort that requires escorting!

Sunmack

100% agree. Same stupidity as has reportedly led to the decommissioning of the T45 sonar. Two thirds of our escort fleet with zero ASW capability. Scandalous