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heroic

How many F35B’s are being built in Total ?

Callum

The USMC is meant to be getting 340 F-35Bs in total to completely replace their Hornets and Harriers, although that figure is from 2007.

Throw in the UK’s 138, and the smaller purchases by Italy and Japan, you’re probably looking in the region of 550 aircraft.

heroic

Thanks Callum. I was thinking about the final Paragraph in the above Article and it got me wondering why the B version might have been in danger of being dropped from the Programme. 550 Aircraft would be a huge achievement for most Manufacturers.

Callum

I imagine it would’ve had something to do with the higher proportion of British components in the B variant. A drop of around 25% in order numbers would have a more noticeable effect on the various sub contractors than it would the F-35 programme as a whole.

Duker

BAE makes ALL the rear fuselages, including vertical and horizontal tails for all versions. RR is only doing the lift engine for B versions of course.

RichardIC

The lift engines are built by Rolls Royce in the US, not the UK.

Duker

yes. They built a new final assembly plant in Plainfield a suburb of Indianapolis where their main US plant is. The parts are supplied from RR other factories and other suppliers ( All jet engines are done like this with a final assembly line). Maintenance on existing engines will also be done here.
“All parts needed to build the LiftFan arrive at the factory in foam cut-outs enclosed in reusable plastic totes and containers. “We use a third-party logistics center to collect and kit all components needed [to assemble the LiftFan],” says Woodard. ”
https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/90248-lean-plant-lifts-rolls-royce
I forgot to mention the ‘UK component’ includes the rotating rear nozzle

Edd

Ahh…long gone are the days when britain made entire aircraft with great names like Sea Fury, Firefly ,Sea Vixen and Sea Harrier. Now its just a sub contracter. Entropy has set in.

Michael

If it makes you feel better, you could dub the F-35 the Sea Lightning.

Joe16

It’s also worth bearing in mind that, at the time of the “F-35B wobble”, Italy and Japan were not F-35B customers if my memory serves. Our order was a far greater proportion of the whole, at that point.

RichardIC

The total of 138 is merely an aspiration confirmed in SDSR 2015.

Absolutely no-one believes that number will ever be ordered. So far only 48 are committed to of which 35 are under contract.

heroic

Thanks for the replies, Do you think that Tempest could be built in significant numbers ?

wjcolton

Except, there’s been much talk recently about the British F-35B buy being cut in half. But, USNI reported over the summer that the Marine Corps looks to buy 353 F-35Bs and 67 F-35Cs. Though with their reduction in tanks and infantry, I suspect the Marine Corps will buy F-35Bs.

Supportive Bloke

Well that always was the danger of the RAF flying kites on not needing so many F35B so they could play with some F35A.

The Treasury is not know for is beneficence with redirecting cash. Expect “thanks for saving that, now I can take it” to be the response from there.

Playing the can I swap B for A game was always going to come acropa.

Ian

Hi Callum…… would Italian and/or Japanese F35 fly from RN or US carriers in the future ?

Callum

That remains to be seen. It seems unlikely they’d be hosted as a part of the airwing like the USMC, but temporary deployments aboard while the carrier is in the area would make sense. After all, Italy and Japan are procuring the B variant as a naval fighter, and the QECs are going to be the premier jump jet platform for basically their entire lives

David Barry

It is an interesting question given the enthused increase in diplomatic and military co-operation with Japan.

And now turning towards the SCS, could UK F35 operate off Japanese decks?

Callum

I’d have to say that’s less likely, although certainly plausible. Aside from QEC carrier deployments, there’s no practical way or reason for our Lightnings to be in the SCS.

Some cross decking exercises would probably occur if a QEC deploys with Izumo or Kaha, but not any sort of semi-permanent stationing on a JMSDF ship. QE has a lot of spare space, smaller ships not so much

X

Some amazing pictures. I may think it is the wrong path but I can’t knock the capability.

borg

Some might just knock the capability until we can park a few more than 5 though. I can see their point.

Supportive Bloke

Yup but we could at a push put all 14 F35B onto a QEC.

We probably could have managed for than 5 but I guess it was limited by something like rule of three.

Breaking the rule of three might have lead to “see, now you don’t need so many F35”

X

That’s why not buying A is important.

Joe16

Agreed, it would be an unwise move at this point and likely further jeopardise Tempest.

borg

“The rule of three” would probably tie in with latest rumours of @70 F35’s and the 24 figure often quoted as a normal load.

Deep32

Would have been interesting to see if we had gone ahead at the start with CATOBAR carriers and the C variant, as you can always fly a B version off either type!

X

We are where we are. I would have sized it for E2x. And bought Rafale-M.

In theory F35b will be able to fly off more hulls than CTOL. It is just going VSTOL cuts us off from USN carrier developments.

Last edited 8 months ago by X
Deep32

Yes, we definitely are where we are, ultimately glad we didn’t chop and change to Cats a few years ago. Interesting choice of aircraft, but then again only alternative is F18, not sure how they stack up either. Would have been an interesting tie up with the French though.
Will have to wait a year or so before we hear how many more B versions we will purchase when Block 4 become available.

X

FA18 is cheaper to buy I suppose.

I don’t know.

We need two jet families.

Duker

Typhoon and Lightning are 2 jet families. There is also some serious seed money going into Tempest as well.

borg

Very serious money by all accounts, from what I’m seeing/reading, there is a great deal of actual work going on. Exciting times ahead. ( hopefully ).

TrevorH

The single issue with not having catapults is airborn early warning. The use helicopters is not ideal. Possibly (?) they are also maintenance heavy.

Having said that, the radars are said to be long range. Plus, there must be friendly bases, places that the whole point is to ally with and defend, from which our AWACS can fly.

The benefits of ramps and VTOL are probably outweighing the other options.

Callum

There’s a whole article on it, but ultimately the big one is that the UK can maintain the infrastructure for a STOVL fleet independently.

The French carrier wing is reliant on the US hosting them during the CdGs downtime to maintain qualifications, otherwise the CdG would spend half its active time trying to train up new pilots from effectively scratch. Even with two carriers, keeping such a relatively small force CATOBAR certified would’ve eaten up a large chunk of deployment time.

STOVL is significantly easier to practice and stay current on. Combined with jump jets being more readily available in adverse conditions, it’s all part of an attitude of functional and capable over all the bells and whistles when it comes to the QECs.

Duker

Good point about the MN training. Isnt the basic carrier training done on T45 Goshawks as well as they have no jet trainers at all, or do they stream via the French Airforce training system.

Deep32

Yes, AEW capability is certainly one of the main issues, but in fairness both VTOL and CATOBAR have their pros and cons, as discussed elsewhere on this site. As already pointed out by @X, we are where we are, so, for us the only game in town is the F35B and helicopters. I’m sure its going to be a much needed and successful capability when all is said, done and paid for.

I was just speculating what path we would have trodden had we gone CATOBAR from the off, as it would have opened up more options for us I believe, but not sure if we could have paid for it. We have to cut our cloth accordingly.

Meirion X

I think the Bell V280 would be suitable for AEW from the QE carriers.

Martin Curry

As the USMC will be retiring its Harriers in 2025, the UK could lease some of these to provide extra fixed wing piloted aircraft for the RN.

DaveyB

If we had gone down the CTOL route, I would have put money on BAe, dusting off the Sea Typhoon concept. A purchased French aircraft operating off from a Her Majesty’s ship, really…..

Callum

Possibly, but there are some far more interesting aircraft out there. Have a look at the P.1216 and the P.125

DaveyB

I remember seeing the P1216 design, as Brooklands have a model of one. The P125 looks interesting, but bugger being the pilot in that!

X

You can’t use Typhoon. Cannards obscure the deck for for landing. Automatic landing? Perhaps. But what if the feature is down and it has to be landed by the pilot?

borg

You can’t use Typhoon on any Carrier though because unlike the Rafale, Typhoon was never developed as a Carrier Aircraft , which was a shame really as it could have been an amazing pairing with the F35. We can only imagine HMS Queen Elizabeth with your “Two Jet Families”. Oh and Cats and traps of course.

borg

and the reason for the downvote is ???????

Bigh1979

But if we had had a Sea Typhoon then what would have been the incentive to buy F35?

Meirion X

The F35C version would not have been available for combat operations until 2023. They are still in flying trials stage now.

Deep32

Very good point, but understand that the F35B won’t have full operational capability until block 4 comes online(early 2024?), Including more weapon options which we still need to procure.
@X point about having more aircraft options then just F35C, is perhaps the better reasoning, as is the point regarding training requirements for cats and traps, something I hadn’t considered.

Deep32

Sorry, missed it post ref Bell V280 earlier. There was an interesting thread earlier in the month regarding suitability of V22 for the very same, it appears there are many issues that need addressing for them to be suitable, dependant on type of radar being used.
Unfortunately V22 is expensive, probably too expensive for UK, while the Bell is still some years away from production. Both would be able to fulfil said role, but at what price!!!
This is one of the downsides to STOVL carriers, but to be fair, if working with allies – USA, they might well be providing AEW support. I’m sure Crowsnest will be fine, it’s just late!!

DaveyB

Irrespective on how the Valor does with the US Army’s requirement. I think the USMC will still look at the Valor to replace their Hueys. The reason for this is that it has a longer unrefuelled range and a higher cruising speed of 300kts. Bell have already demonstrated a life size model that had a twisting wing with folding rotors. The have even turn the V tail upside down to make sure it can fit in the hangar deck. Personally I think the Valor would be best for the FAA as well. Whether it would be used for other duties except transporting troops remains to be seen, but Bell have said it is easily adaptable.

I don’t know if there would be a market for it, but a Osprey Mk2 could be on the cards, using technology developed for the Osprey. Especially when you consider the Osprey’s design is now knocking on 40 years old.

Bigmac

Makes me wonder if the US Navy may rethink having a ski ramp on their LHD’s.

Supportive Bloke

USMC run the gator navy…..

No chance as they need to pack loads of kit onto the decks and the ski jump takes precious area.

The only way you could do it would be to make it a full width bow projection (can’t be asymmetrical otherwise it would put a list on the ship and can’t be done the way it was on the Invincibles which was very strange as it was to one side and short of the bow) but the problem would be that unless the stern was ballasted it would force the bow down due to the extra weight.

QEC can have a bow extension ski jump as it is so damn big that the tiny bit of extra weight makes little or no difference particularly as it was designed from the get go to have a ski jump on the front.

X

Especially now with MV22 which is huge.

Deep32

I see your host of admirers are active again!! It’s got to make you laugh that people can be bothered to do it!!!

X

Well the site owners see voting as a positive for the site. And I am obviously living in somebody’s head rent free. 🙂

Even though it is easy to fiddle voting it takes effort. I feel a bit sad for them really.

Supportive Bloke

I do see it as worrying that the site web janitors hasn’t figured out who is posting downvotes to sensible factual comments from their IP(s) and banned them.

Deep32

Got to admit that I’m not sure how that works, after all, do you leave a electronic trail just by pushing the vote button? If you do, then totally agree with banning them. Well, agree with banning them regardless, not sure if I agree that the whole voting thing is a positive.

Supportive Bloke

All sites log the IP address of the poster if only for spam trap purposes.

They will know who the phantom down-voter is.

The mystery is why they don’t just send them an email asking him to desist?

It would be well within reasonable rules to block that range of IP addresses.

Deep32

Cheers, wasn’t sure how it all worked.👍

Meirion X

Sometimes when you vote, you get a double vote, I have noticed occasionally. Maybe a bug in the system? I have made an effort to correct my double vote to a single vote, up or down!

Last edited 8 months ago by Meirion X
X

Worrying isn’t it?

borg

Morning, Blimey I usually start off by upvoting but trying to undo this many looks a bit daunting. Might have a try after a couple of Expresso’s !

X

Well I think my little friend is Duker who seems to think this website is own little fiefdom.

borg

Sorry, I can’t do anything to help you mate, you’re on your own I’m afraid, 15 downvotes on one comment might just be a record, Good luck, I hope you get through this.

X

No problems. If you look below you can see Duker has spazed out after failing to read my comment properly and resorted to top trumps. He is probably an angry 13 year old. Acts like it. I will have fun winding the troll up.

borg

Well, You do have a few Friends on here, you have gone from -16 to -12 without mine…….. Have another mate…….

X

Thank you.

Deep32

Ditto.

Duker

making up stuff again as per usual. Its so easy to debunk your ‘random thoughts’. If I have some thoughts I say it directly and its based on fact

X

Up voting yourself now I see. Well done.

Supportive Bloke

Silly

It makes whoever is doing this looks like Trump.

I assume we all agree that being Tangerine Coloured is not a good look?

Meirion X

Actually a American Trump supporter down voted me -70 earlier in the year! Because I made a remark about disinfectant!

Last edited 8 months ago by Meirion X
Challenger

Interesting seeing some of the old B vs C arguments being rehashed in the comments.

Funny that there has been some research recently about the viability of launching Super Hornet via a ski-ramp rather than catapult!

I think ultimately though it’s better to have a smaller number of 5th generation jets than had a larger number of cheaper but older Hornet’s if a STOBAR arrangement could have proved viable. Presumably besides launching the carriers would have also needed angled flight-decks to allow for aborted landings?

The future seems bright for F35B with the penny dropping not just for the USMC but also Italy, Japan, South Korea (and quite possibly more to follow) that having it offers great flexibility and the ability to cross-deck and integrate with several partner nations.

138 has been a fantasy for quite a while but a rumored eventual fleet of 70ish would allow for 4 squadrons and mixed with Typhoon will represent a very potent force.

X

STOBAR is very inefficient use of space.

C really is a dead end. And I have seen about the place that the USAF is already looking past A and looking at newer F15 versions.

As odd as it may sound B which was seen as the add on model may turn out to be the most successful variant even if A end up being more numerous.

Duker

USAF is only buying F15s for Air National Guard to replace much older F15Cs. Wrong assumptions there about looking past F35A as the numbers are small compared to F35 buy.

Duker

https://www.airforcemag.com/air-force-closing-in-on-250th-f-35a/
USAF’s F-35A total now makes it a larger fleet than that of the F-15C/D Eagle, of which USAF has 234 still in service. “
Its around 5 per month delivery and by next year will surpass the A10 fleet (281)
I had seem some ‘indications’ a few years back that the USAF was thinking about F35B version for itself, but highly unlikely for budgetary reasons

X

F35A is dead in the water. You need to read wider. Don’t judge my assumptions by your limited understanding of matters.

Duker

meanwhile you got a twofer, wrong on the F15 and the F35A…so sad

X

Why not do some more down voting you illiterate damaged twerp.

How about some ‘Top Trumps’ stats?

I live in your head rent free. I am your baas.

Duker

I never up/downvote old chap, only when people discuss it do I know its there, my eyes concentrate on the words. You live in your own bubble with enough rages and relentless negativity towards anything British and the RN to shorten your life. And here you are again , with nothing worthwhile to say

X

You do all the time. You can’t even be honest about it.

Meirion X

You can’t really accuse Duker of down voting you all the time.
You got No proof it was Duker!
As I said, I was down voted a lot when I made remarks about Trump.
Just think about it!

Last edited 8 months ago by Meirion X
X

No sorry.

F35A is far from the roaring F16 success it should have been. It will never be purchased in the numbers it was supposedly going to be purchased in by far. It would be fair to say it is only being purchased because there is no other option.

F35b is the odd man out. But it is likely that as a type it will be the most successful filling a niche for many navies and other services because of its VSTOL ability.

And the USAF are already looking beyond it to both new manned air vehicles and unmanned.

And yet the USAF are looking at F15 for some roles as you point out for ANG. And perhaps even front roles. Because A is problematic. And A is expensive.

Nothing I have said there is wrong.

Go down vote some more and play top Top Trumps you idiot.

borg

Potent but small though, well smaller than most would like.

TrevorH

The order for our F35Bs covers the life time of the programme. The Germans have just ordered some new Typhoons and that was first brought into service donkeys years ago and so they will replace older ones.
Will we replace old Typhoons like for like or will our older ones be replaced by F35s?

heroic

Hello TrevorH, I was under the impression that the Germans are buying Typhoons to replace their Tornados. Other options included F18 and F35 but Politics probably played a big part.

Deep32

Yes, so a recent article states, but believe it is a split buy of Typhoons and F18’s, the latter to be able to deliver nuclear weapons.

David Barry

I believe it is because they need a nuclear capable bomb truck.

Deep32

Yes, a role undertaken by their Tornado fleet, otherwise, cant imagine why they would go for the F18. Clearly the F35 would be nuclear capable, but as already discussed elsewhere, politics comes into play, dont think the French would have been to happy with that…

DaveyB

The US would not clear the Typhoon to carry US nukes that Germany has access to, which is why they are buying the F18s.

The F35 will be cleared to carry nukes in the next batch update, but it isn’t yet.

Challenger

My understanding is their next purchase of 38 will replace their Tornado’s along with some F18’s, but they will have a requirement to replace their earlier tranche’s of Typhoon after that which will almost certainly involve even more rather than a new type.

Under current assumptions the RAF’s tranche 1 Typhoon’s will effectively be replaced by some F35’s after the initial 48 but who know’s when or how many at this stage.

It seems the RAF & FAA can/will aim to sustain a maximum of 10 fast-jet squadrons so personally I think a small top-up buy to keep the Typhoon fleet at roughly 130 air-frames and 6-7 squadrons, with 72 F35B in 3-4 squadrons (all depending not just on the jets but the money and manpower to run them) would be a very effective force.

Andrew Deacon

No the 38 just ordered are to replace their tranche 1’s which they hope to sell on the 2nd hand market . There will be a follow up order of 50 ish typhoons and a number of super hornets and growlers to replace the tornado , the supers will take on the nuclear role and the growlers the ecr role.

TrevorH

Taking off with the Hornet is one thing, what about landing though?

X

The AR in STOBAR stands for ‘Arrested Recovery’ – wires and cables.

TrevorH

Yes. I read and understood all that. And challenger also pointed out the need really for angled flight deck. Therefore the sky jump for the Hornet is one thing and trying to stop is another, is what I emphasised in response. As has been said elsewhere the training time and costs are significant in landing. The ski jump and arrester hooks are not complementarity.

X

It takes that much oomph to get off the deck the planes can’t carry much fuel or weapons.

DaveyB

Yep, you need a greater than 1:1 power to weight ratio for a ski jump short take off.

Challenger

As X says all you need for landing is arrestor wires, plus probably an angled flight-deck to allow for emergency aborts and redo’s without danger of crashing. The ski ramp launch is the tricky part.

Wasn’t lamenting not going for cats and traps, I just think it’ll be funny if the R&D progresses to the point where Super Hornet can launch and recover using a STOBAR arrangement which would have given us a different and cheaper option to F35C!

X

comment image

Supportive Bloke

The angled flight deck is there on QEC: it just isn’t painted that way.

D J

I would point out that current Russian & Chinese STOBAR carriers typically do not have angled flightdesks. I fail to understand the lack of arrestor wires on the QE class. Both USA & France operate fighters capable of operating in STOBAR configuration & could be otherwise already be operating off QE carriers, even if only in A-A configuration.

X

Lot of kit in wires. It isn’t straightforward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPiG7Ouj_c4&ab_channel=USSTheodoreRoosevelt

D J

A lot of kit – yes, but nothing compared to catapults. STOBAR is doable on the cheap. CATOBAR isn’t.

wjcolton

That all depends on what mission capable rate can be achieved. The goal in the States is 80%. Assuming the same for the Royal Navy, that leaves about 60 available at a given time.

Gunbuster

And the most important thing mentioned by Major Brandt was not included in the above report….

“Exchanges extended to American chefs who were aboard Queen Elizabeth for the exercises this fall. The crew ate plenty of fish, according to Brandt.
“The chow was phenomenal,” he said.”

borg

“Awesome”.

DaveyB

He also never mentioned the bit about the mess bars?

Last edited 8 months ago by DaveyB
Joe16

I read a comment on TWZ from a US veteran who made specific mention of the “disappointing” UK food in comparison to what is available on American vessels (and bases, I believe). Would you agree on that front?

Supportive Bloke

It has got a lot lot better. Bigger better galleys and better training play a large part. Better conditions at sea. Pay isn’t bad in those roles compared to the outside world. Certainly ATM catering roles will be easy to fill with quality candidates….

In the ‘80 everything was fried or burned to a crisp!! Plenty of energy: nutritious not so much.

Joe16

Good to hear!
I used to work offshore, and the difference in general atmosphere and morale between platforms with good chefs and those without was noticeable. Even more so, for those who are away from home for a long time and serving their country, the least we could do is feed them well!

Supportive Bloke

Armies march on their stomachs

Maybe Navies float on theirs?

Joking apart good food is a great way of raising moral and retention.

A relatively cheap way of making things better.

DaveyB

Yes, to a degree. The US military are famous for Fish Fridays and in particular spider crab legs. Going back to my Kandahar days, this was the main reason we used to go. However, when there was the 6 Nations on or other big sporting events our messes used to put on the curries. They used to do a curry during the week, but on the events it was like they got the Ghurkhas in, they were brilliant. We first introduced the Canadians, I was embedded with, to them at Bastion, but also at Lash. Then we invited some US Marines, Rangers and operators. I don’t think they’ve ever had a real curry? But after that we would always see them during sporting events. Did try to explain rugby to a Ranger who was aghast at the lack of protective equipment.

The times when I was aboard one of the amphibs the food has been ok and plentiful. Aboard the wee carriers Lusty and Ark Royal, I always thought the food was ok during the normal week, but the chefs ramped it up on the weekends and during special occasions, like Trafalgar day. On the RFAs, the food was awesome.

By comparison, food at UK bases is so-so, it has improved massively since when I first joined up. The food at Lympston in particular was megga. When over in the States, the food during the week was I thought worse than what we have, except on Fridays! Oh and they don’t do Yorkshire puds…

Ron5

Great stuff!

Taz

China is threating UK that if the HMS QE get any close to them they gonna fire.
We need like 2 more carriers + 2 we’ve got already.
2 is not enough if shit goes down

borg

Probably why we have Trident !

Hugo Barrington Smythe

I say old chap, that would simply not do.

Marc

I am really confused about British procurement. Here you have a truly fantastic ship and aircraft. You guys spent a ton of money to get this capability. Yet for some reason, you don’t pay the last bit of money to get the most out of it.

Only CIWS? No ESSM / Ceptor? Why? A few million more to protect a multi billion national treasure with a thousand sailors on it from all but inevitable ASCM “leaking” through the SAMs. But no?

How about more F-35s. Yes, they aren’t cheap. But if the buy is curtailed then you are underutilizing an enormously expensive asset.

This just doesn’t make financial sense to not maximize what is already a sunk cost for just a little bit more. Seems like a pattern. Only six Type 45s? After all the R and D?

X

It’s been the story of British procurement since the end of WW2. We buy the basic platform, a few essential items, skip a couple of key components, and then put it into service. Ships, aeroplanes, vehicles, etc. it doesn’t matter. We do spend money on training though which many better equipped militaries don’t, but we are cutting back on that now.

Challenger

Plenty of us in the UK, from armchair admirals to professional analysts bemoan the problems with procurement

As you say, relative to the overall cost peanuts to add some Sea Ceptor which is a capability all other carrier navies seem to feel the need to include.

BAE were offering 2 extra Type 45’s at roughly £750 million a pop back in 2008 – still expensive but significantly less than the first 6 at £1 billion each due to the R&D costs. If 12 or 10 had been built that unit price would have continued to drop, but what the RN’s actually ended up with is 6 very expensive vessels that field a world beating AAW capability but little else aside from an old main-gun system and some smaller caliber cannons.

Hopefully we’ll get at least 70 F35B’s which will be sufficient to deploy 24 (plus a load of helo’s and some USMC jets) on a routine basis.

X

And most of the time they sail with a near empty VLS because we didn’t buy many missiles. I am sure we never actually bought Aster 15 because Sea Ceptor was on its way.

Don
X

I never said Sea Viper couldn’t fire Aster 15 I am just not sure we bought any. Can you point to a source showing 15 was purchased? Or even better 15 being loaded into Sylver?

Don

400 million euro contract.

Ron5

The Aster 15 missile is exactly the same as the Aster 30. The only difference is the booster. Aster missiles were purchased by the RN plus the two sizes of booster. Both varieties have been fired from the Type 45’s.

Last edited 8 months ago by Ron5
Marc

I’m sure that RN bought the Aster 15. My understanding is that the Aster 30 has an uncomfortably large minimum range. Something about the booster having to be jettisoned in order to have the dynamic ability to engage maneuvering targets close in. By the time it is jettisoned the missile is thousands of meters down range.

X

Yes is has a very large minimum range due to the booster. But I am not sure we bought any.

Marc

This is just crazy. How many sailors are on board? Maybe 2,000? The RN knows that the carrier will be hunted and attacked. 40 F-35s can do incredible damage to any country. Enemies will do everything they can to destroy the carrier. And 3 CIWS? Insanity.

I don’t care how good the Type 45 is. It’s highly likely that the ship will have to defend itself. If nothing else from a submarine that gets in close missile range. The thought of 2,000 sailors in the water or being burned because of this easily foreseeable situation is awful.

Supportive Bloke

You make good points.

The Aster15 on T45 is at least something that can be done very fast.

I can see and understand the RN’s doctrinal opposition to putting Ceptor on the carriers but agree there will be times when they are exposed and not in a fully formed up escort fleet. So they might have a last ditch use.

The QEC’s also have automated 30mm’s fitted, presumably for anti swarm.

DaveyB

Or the two T45s have spent all their missiles….

Ron5

The 30mm cannon on the QE’s are not automated. Perhaps you are thinking of the Phalanx?

borg

Oh yes they are.

borg

Well they are Ron, No need to downvote mate, you got it wrong again. When you are wrong, you might just want to admit it, It’s nothing to be ashamed of. All your Downvoting efforts are wasted on me mate, just like they were on the UKDJ site.

Ron5

Parliament was told the Type 45’s cost 650 million each on average without including R&D. So you are a bit out with your 750 million.

Supportive Bloke

Really?

If so I respectfully suggest that the 30mm cannon are a waste of space and a fig leaf.

There I was dreaming that layering had been introduced. You work me up with a bucked of cold sea water.

Hard to understand when 30mm + Artisan exists elsewhere.

Maybe it is a missing link in BAE CMS?

Ron5

“Automated” usually means weapons can detect, target and fire at incoming without any human intervention. “Autonomous” would be a better description but that has unfortunate connotations that highlight that there is no “human in the loop”. The lunatic left have trouble with that concept.

Phalanx is capable of automated/autonomous operation.

The 30mm’s are not. They can be fire remotely but still require a human to aim and fire.

Phalanx is a CIWS for last ditch defence against missiles, aircraft and boats.

30mm is just for defending against boats. Colloquially they are called “junk busters” i.e. Chinese boat busters.

borg

Well what a load of uneducated Tosh. Oh and you choose to Insult the “Loony” Left and the Chinese in the same post. I’ve noted the downvotes since you arrived earlier too. Are you in need of help at all mate ? it is out there.

Meirion X

The DS30M gun can be aimed and fired remotly by a human operator.
With 2 feeds of armo.

It is used against fast attack craft/boats.

Last edited 8 months ago by Meirion X
Don

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Last edited 8 months ago by Don
Sunmack

In terms of the carriers add to your list:
1) Failure to fit a long range heavyweight anti-ship missile to the F35 (it will have Spear 3 but its range is within most area defence SAM systems and it’s a small warhead)
2) Not fitting the Storm Shadow missile to the F35 leaving them without a stand off land attack missile, once again requiring them to go into the engagement envelope of area defence SAM’s
3) Not buying new medium helicopters to carry Crows Nest AEW radars and carry out plane guard duties leaving the half a dozen embarked Merlin’s to cope with plane guard, AEW and ASW missions

David

4 Replenishment duties – VERTREP

Ron5

Current plans have the Merlin Mk 4’s, used for Vertrep, embarked on the RFA accompanying the QE’s.

Ron5

By the time Storm Shadow would have been qualified for F-35 use, the missile would have been out of UK service. It’s rather ancient.

Also the QE’s can, and will, carry more than 6 Merlins.

David Barry

Can you explain from where these Merlins are magically appearing from given anecdotal evidence they can be hangar queens?

Don

9 Merlins Mk2s of 820 Squadron.

Ron5

Plus the Mk 4’s on escorting RFA as I mentioned before.

Connor

Yyyy

borg

huh ?

Hugo Barrington Smythe

Well I must say chaps, It’s a rum do all this voting malarkey, a proper rum do.

Robert blay

Despite the delays to the F35 project, The F35B really is a wonder of engineering.

Ron5

And a lot of that engineering is British so give yourself a pat on the back.

Hugo Barrington Smythe

Oh cwicky crumbs, wobert, well done you.

DaveyB

Now with the demise of the USS Bonholme Richard, will that mean the USMC will be seen more often on our Carriers? Especially as we haven’t the aircraft to support two.

Ron5

The UK doesn’t have enough to support one!

Edd

Or to put this co-operation another way-
Britain cannot afford the rest of the F35Bs at 75 million a go and under cover of the ‘special relationship’ the US Marines are brought onboard to make up the numbers and prevent little britain being laughed at by the rest of the world for having half empty flight decks.
With the RN ,RAF and Marines in close confines I wonder how long it will take for the first punch up to happen in the mess when tempers fray? Or some loud mouth says- ”we saved your ass in 1945!” When the rum flows a little too freely. We shall see.