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Peter S

It makes sense to test the upgrades properly. I am less happy with the whole idea that the RN/RFA, funded by British taxpayers, should be expected to provide support to territories that not only make no contribution to the costs but operate as tax havens that undermine the UK tax system. For example, the wealthy channel islands pay nothing, facilitate tax avoidance and still expect help from the RN in disputes with French trawlers.
Britain should insist on a full financial contribution to defence from these remaining colonies or stop subsidizing them.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

1) Yes. One of those instances where former possessions suddenly think the old Colonial power isn’t that bad after all. It is annoying.

2) DfID has a considerable budget. They could get say SERCO to charter a suitable ship and contractors to do this work.

Last edited 7 months ago by The Whale Island Zoo Keeper
Winters Dev

It could be argued that we owe them.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

Personally I think it works both ways.

Quek

owe what?

Jonathan

Well the whole reason we planted the flag on these islands and forcibly transplanted slave populations was to make a shite ton of money that was extracted and built our cities, funded our navy and stately homes owned by the national trust….Britain did not own these places for fun and charity we made a huge amount of money and become the most powerful nation the world had ever known on the back of these and many other colonial possessions…and let’s be honest they got pretty much sweet FA out of it…

Kevin Hastie

But of course the RN was instrumental in the abolition of slavery and policed the worlds oceans to prevent it, The British Empire is the ONLY empire in world history to ban slavery. The whole subject matter is a great deal more nuanced than some would have us believe

Jonathan

As I said Kevin, good and bad, also like everything you can only really judge an action against the context of the time and it’s final outcome … as an example idiocy of the statue pulling down brigade calling Churchill a racist while ignoring the fact he kept the UK fighting, so preventing the final victory of one of the greatest evils in history…the stupidity is that of course he was racist…the entire human race was racist at that point in history..benevolent racism’s was simply the best you could expect. Gandy was an utter racist…if we judge the worth of historic actions and attitudes only against our modern ethical frameworks every statue of every historical figure across the globe would be removed. The as an example the so vaulted William Wilberforce…was still a politician of his time and no less racist than any other ( he even voted for the use of force to subjugate Haitian slaves). Basically you can only really make a judgment on the final balance of how it turned out…the British empire did a lot of good things along with some very crap things..but in balance it improved the world..so all in all the British empire will be seen in history of an empire that created a further step on the road of human history (like the iterates of the Roman Empire) especially when compared with Imperial powers like Belgium, Japan and the third Reich which will be seen as only blips of profound evil.

John Clark

We Jonathan, we??

I’ve personally never invaded or occupied a Caribbean Island, neither have any of my family, or my deceased grandparents, or their parents, or indeed their parents!

If we are using that logic, then the Germans should still be groveling at our feet, wracked with Anglo Saxon guilt for their heinous crimes that are still in living memory….

WOKE nonsense…..

Anyway, what have the Romans ever done for us????

Jonathan

What have the romans ever done for us…well apart from acting as a bastion against the encroachment of Islam and being a major balwick of western civilisation..they did plenty. What you have and who you are is fundamentally built on history. To ignore history and it’s impact is to effectively having the hubris to say everything I am and everything I have is dependent solely on me..which I’m afraid is rubbish. The very towns we live in, parks we play in, companies we work for, legal system we live by, education systems that develop us are products of history.

your history our history defines us and the world around us..if you think the Irish are not still a bit pissed with the English think again, if you think that modern geopolitics are not still massively impacted by the third Reich and the holocaust, I will point you directly to the fact the state of Israel exists and the entire Arab Israeli conflict as well as how that has impacted on US foreign policy in the 20th and 21c..I will,also point out that the Germany with the fourth largest economy in the world..still hides behind the EU for its foreign policy and is effectively pacifist in its geopolitical impact, in case of fact the third largest economy Japan is pacifist with a constitution that says:

“the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use as a means of settling international disputes.” That’s art 9 of their constituent…

two of the largest powers on the planet effectively bow out of geopolitics due to history and these are two major powers who have a history of imperialism and warfare..so yes they are still grovelling at the feet of the world over the ills of world war two

As of 2005 the German state had paid out around 87billion euros to individuals, it’s paid reparations to Poland, Greece, paid the U.S. and UK to occupy it ( we charged expenses)..Poland are still in negotiations over war reparations ( Germany is still grovelling).

as for my we statement…I was not casting a moral judgment I stated “if we judge the worth of historic actions and attitudes Apollyon against our modern ethical framework every state of every historical figure across the globe would be removed.”

the truth is that in reality your and my ancestors as well as everyone else’s had very different moral views to our own…people would have a family day out that involved a good hanging and public execution. They would hang children for stealing food and they would step over starving people…industrial disputes were ended using the sword they simply had different moral bedrocks. The felt it was fine to exploit peoples less advanced than them and if a society could not defend itself it was fine to conquer and exploit it for its own good…It’s not woke to understand and discus this.

John Clark

I take a slightly different approach, Jonathan.

First off, the answer to ” what have the Romans ever done for us” is

The viaduct…

Life of Brian mate….

Moving on, it seems to me this country has just turned into a nation of groveling apologists, constantly agonising over our colonial past and wringing our hands over our revolting white privilege and obviously suffering from unconscious bias if you don’t happen to think that way….

It’s all long in the past and absolutely nothing to do with me, or us, nothing to be ashamed of.

How about our ancestors who wiped out the woolly mammoths on our patch, any shame there?

Boadicea was quite partial to burning Romans alive if captured, cutting out unborn babies etc, etc, not feeling the shame there either….

I’m not wracked with guit over Victorian peodophiles and murderers, also nothing to do with me or us….

Do you think other countries like France or Belgium agonise over their rather dark colonial pasts ( somewhat worse than ours) , nope, dosen’t even register a jot on their national conscious, they don’t give it a thought.

Only the Brits wrack themselves with guilt over their ancestors behaviour!!

So yep, Woke and self destructive behaviour….

Roger

It does not look good when someone pontificates about history then make an utterly nonsensical comment about the Romans being a bastion against Islam. The Islamic religion originated in the early 7th century AD. By that time the Roman empire was long gone.

Jonathan

Actually the Roman Empire ended in 1453 when the Ottoman Empire finally took Constantinople and the emperor Constantine XI died in battle. The eastern empire delayed the expansion of the Ottoman Empire westward by around 100 years your thinking of the fall of the western Roman Empire which occurred by 430.

History is generally opinion not fact..but there are some facts and it’s best to know them before making critical comments.

Capmann1880

The eastern empire of course never occupied Britain; I think when discussing the Roman Empire and Britain, it’s generally understood we’re talking about the Empire before its split.

Perhaps we–the collective “we,” if we’re talking about the West–should be grateful to the Byzantines for holding off the Turks, but the more relevant question about the “Roman” Empire might instead be–like people ask modern-day politicians–“what have they done for us lately?”

It is interesting that people can get so heated over an article that makes it clear that the main point of the deployment was to test the ship’s engines in warm climates!

Steve Seaman

Whilst you have a point, I think it applies more to flags of convenience. Ships deliberately flagged out by their owners to dodge the costs of registering under a “genuine” national registry are the often the first to look for naval protection in case of piracy or state sponsored terrorism.

Alex L

“Have you tried calling up the Panamanian navy?”

“Oh well, never mind. I’m sure you’ll be fine. YOLO!”

Nigel

In the case of the Channel Islands (and the Isle of Man), the term ‘Crown Dependencies’ springs to mind. The territories listed fall under the sovereignty of the British Crown. They are neither colonies nor overseas territories. Their status is as agreed by the Crown through Westminster. They neither receive UK grants nor contribute to the Exchequer. However, their citizens can and do serve in HM Armed Forces.

Tim

You aren’t military are you Peter S

pjh

Why does he have to be Military, It’s just an information site for anyone interested in military affairs and discussion ?

Sean

They’re not colonies FFS ????????‍♂️

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

1) True. But you would have perhaps made a better argument if you had spoken about Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories and mentioned their differences.

2) Every body knows what was meant.

The Whale Island Zoo Keeper

1) Because the Naval Service is short of hulls and has to send what it has available.

2) The Caribbean is quite busy and is good for training.

Supportive Bloke

Nice for the crew too.

May as well train there as anywhere else.

Sean

Well it’s a probably a better test of the PIP than sending it to the Arctic….

Duker

I can think of a very hot place , the Gulf comes to mind.
Is there a trip by the new king coming to the Caribbean or is it off to Transylvania

Gunbuster

Its a balmy 38 Degs here at the moment.
Humidity at nearly 50 % and rising as the hottest part of the years approaches.

Apparently it feels like 47 Degs. No working outdoors between 1200-1600 unless there is shade above you.

I was out working in it most of yesterday and its brutal if you are not acclimatised to it…after nearly 12 years of RN and Civvy life out here I am thank goodness but a lot of the Crew on the RFA I was working on suffer because they rotate in and out so often.

By the By…the runs ashore and the Rum is better when doing Windies Guardship!

A Robinson

Not very good for air defence training!

Paul Bearer

Did you read the article ?

A Robinson

Who?

Tim

The lads need a holiday sometimes . When I went to the gulf on Scylla we had 16 days in Mombasa Kenya. It’s what the Royal Navy do.

Duker

They buy plane tickets to favoured destination like anyone else, much better than just getting 6 hours onshore

Gunbuster

??
OK Cinderella leave during the week but that doesn’t apply if you book into a hotel at a weekend.

stephen ball

Hurricane season with all the equipment is good for training.

Where else has cyclones? I yeah the Pacific.

stephen ball

Also during war at sea, many fleets have been disabled before even reaching their destination.

Spanish armada lost 28 ships to storms,
1st Mongol invasion of Japan up to 200 ships lost to a strom.

A Robinson

Not many berths for ships of the Type 45’s draught in the Caribbean!

BigShipDave

Cruise Ship Berths?

Duker

Commercial ships have got a lot bigger than say the 1960s, ports have been dredged or new berths built.

Phil Chadwick

As soon as I learnt that Dauntless was going on a WIGS deployment, I knew the reason straight away; that is, to test fully, the new propulsion arrangements onboard in a hot and humid climate, where they can push the ship to her limits. She’ll also be able to work with HMS Prince of Wales when she arrives in the Western Atlantic. It’s a win win situation, and a great trip for the crews of both ships. Afterall, it’s what we all joined the RN for in the first place isn’t it… the opportunities to travel to exotic far flung places, to experience unforgettable runs ashore, living the dream… In terms of retention, it’s only years after you have left the MOB that one day you ponder to yourself, ‘What was hell was I thinking?… I should have stayed in!’ I have had that thought on many occasions since I left, all the places I sailed to, (see Taranto below) and I regret the decision to bang in my notice when I did.

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Gunbuster

I look back and I did OK visiting most places that are on bucket lists but I was glad I left when I did and haven’t really looked back. You do look back on runs ashore rather than defence watches and action stations as the plusses.

Windies x 2
Falklands x 2
Med Numerous
Nordic + Baltic x 2
States Numerous
Gulf x 3
Far East inc Aus x 2

Plus 3 x Shore jobs in Hong Kong, Naples and KSA…Not bad for a Gunbuster!

Georgie

It clearly goes on to mention why she is being deployed there yet the Usual bunch go off on a tangent about previous colonies as normal. Post PIP testing of the propulsion system and showing a presence.

Alex

I’m unsure of the timetable for Sea Ceptor integration into T45s – when will those that already had PIP get CAMM? Will it be combined with PIP for hulls that haven’t completed it yet?