Subscribe
Notify of
guest

54 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Peter

It was curious that none of the committee asked about the defence of the RN’s main naval bases. Having seen the success of Ukraine at hitting Russian ships in port, how would the UK defend against similar threats? It’s much easier to hit a stationary vessel tied up alongside, or in drydock, than one moving around at sea. Airborne and surface drones, and cruise missiles. have all recently been successful at degrading Russian naval assets in harbour.

This appears to be a gap in UK defences, not just restricted to maritime assets, but as this is a naval website I’ll just ask about RN bases for now.

David MacDonald

Good point. However I suppose that, in extremis, there remains the options of using the facilities in Rosyth and Gibraltar and possibly Falmouth too.

Commonwealth Loyalist

Yeah but how much capability for serious dry dicking and refits do those bases have? Probly nowadays next to nothing.

stephen ball

Sky Sabre might need a few extra units.

Supportive Bloke

Sky Sabre is Sea Ceptor……with a different radar……?

Jon

Yes, it uses SAAB Giraffe. It also has a different CMS, essentially the one from Iron Dome.

Ry@n

Our geography helps as the three major UK naval bases are south/west facing and threats are expected to come from the North/ Northeast. So attacking them with surface vessels would be extremely difficult. (especially with the towed array sonar frigate patroling) For missiles we rely on th RAF QRA if a threat is launched against the UK. Our best defence is to make sure these threats aren’t launched in the first place by escorting vessels near the UK and maintaining a good knowledge of everything near the UK.

John

The submarine base at Faslane would be easily knocked out with a minimal attack using long range cruise missiles regardless of where they are launched from, it is so exposed with no apparent defence systems. The only saving grace is that nobody has had an interest in doing it.

Gareth

The RN base in Qatar near the Persian Gulf is certainly vulnerable to drone/missile attack. Iran and their proxies have used drones and missiles repeatedly to hit targets in the region both on land and at sea. Bases at Cyprus, and Diego Garcia are also quite vulnerable I would think.

Last edited 4 months ago by Gareth
Commonwealth Loyalist

Excellent point Peter, remember at the outbreak of WWII the RN suddenly demanded thousands of AA guns to defend their bases. Just another reminder that Defense agencies of the govt tend to plan for the last war but one, as per C Northcote Parkinson.

Cheers

John

Sjb1968

No mention that we do not have an operational LPD at the moment and no date for its recommissioning.
The issues with old ships, a lack of submarines and personnel is just the bit we see. The real concern is the run down in the supporting infrastructure. Devonport is a prime example and whilst money is now being spent on 10 dock this is impacting on submarine availability including the V Bombers.
Given this is our ultimate deterrent it doesn’t bode well for other parts of naval support infrastructure that might not be such a high priority.

N-a-B

I wouldn’t be too pleased about having Navy Lookout pieces cited by Penfold. A man whose schtick largely consists of grandstanding and whose “reports” show a somewhat disturbing inability to distinguish opinions from facts.

Nick

Penfold?

N-a-B

Separated at birth?

penfold
N-a-B

And penfold

penfold-2
Nick

Thx, must admit Penford never crossed my horizon.

Duker

So says the skipper of HMS Conservative Party

Supportive Bloke

I always thought an opinion repeatedly endlessly without evidence became fact after 100 repetitions in The Strangers Bar after 10 pints?

Sean

All 5 Type 31s target is to be all in service by 2030, so the question is can the existing GP Type 23s last until then.

The bigger concern is the ASW Type 23s, as at best we’ll have 3 Type 26s in service by that date. Depending on the ships conditions, and how heavily they are worked over their remaining years, it may be necessary, as speculated in the article in to transfer a S2087 towed sonar to a GP Type 23 frigate.
This is not an outlandish proposal, all the Type 23s were originally designed as ASW frigates with towed arrays. The current ‘GP Types’ are simply those that didn’t get the S2087 as part of the mid-life refit of 2004 to 2012.
It would be a prudent move to avoid any ASW frigate gap.

Louis

The GP T23s are the oldest ships. Lancaster will decommission when she comes back from the Gulf. Another T23 will replace her.
This leaves 1 that could be reverted back to ASW. The ASW T23 are also getting new hull mounted sonars although Westminster’s will now be spare.
Trouble is, how long will the GPs last? Not much longer I suspect. Maybe it would be better to adapt the first T31 coming into service. I suspect they will get the new S2150 off the T23s as 16 sets were ordered for both T23 and T26. I don’t know if T31 could be adapted for a towed array.
By 2030 only 2 T26 will likely be in service so there will be a dip in numbers.
At the same time Fort Vic will probably have to leave service before FSSS enters service.
All this points to CSG taking a hit in the late 2020s and early 2030s. The RNs has to have a ship on TAPS which will be the priority.

Sean

You’re making a basic error by assuming that the oldest ships are the most knackered. In real life it will depend on lots of factors, such as the build quality from that yard, the number, duration and environment of its taskings over the years, any incidents such as accidents or rushed refits, etc, etc.

The T31s are not getting the S2150, they are getting S2170. This gives the T31 basic defence should it accidentally encounter a submarine, but it doesn’t equip it to actively hunt submarines.

I think “Navy Lookout”, who came up with the idea in the article of updating a GP Type 23 to ASW, probably has better knowledge on this that either of us. I assume you bothered to read the article…

Louis

As the article states, the most expensive LIFEX was Iron Duke, the youngest of the GPs.
Argyll is in her third major refit of her life and is only expected to stay in service until 2027-28.
Lancaster will decommission when she come back from the Gulf.

16 S2150 sets were bought for T23 and T26. The RN aren’t going to waste nearly new sonars, so I suspect they will move onto T31s or T32s if they transpire.

N-a-B

They won’t be going on T31, for the simple reason that the bows have been fabricated without the ability to fit them……

Louis

Can T31 not be adapted to have a sonar fit?
It seems strange that the RN would order so many S2150s if there was no use for them. You’d have thought the b2s would get old T23 sonars then.

Duker

Could be a under hull dome fit ? But not sure

Ultra20Hull20mounted20Sonar20Ultra-11
N-a-B

You do know that 2170 is a torpedo warning set – and nothing else?

Sean

Yes, as I pointed out in another post when I discredited the idea of using T31 for active sub-hunting.

Jon

The RN can’t afford to modify the T31 contract, so any refit of the first T31 would have to take place after delivery, with a knock on effect on operational dates. As you point out, Lancaster can’t be extended much beyond the end of 2025. Iron Duke will probably go by end of 2027, so not getting Venturer operational in 2027 will cause yet more problems if we want a GP frigate covering the Gulf in 2028.

It might be better to modify the last but one T31, Bulldog, rather than the first, so we could be as certain as possible of 3 GP frigates without extra delay. Or better still, we could fast-build another T31 batch, this time second-tier ASW by design, coming operational from 2030/31. (We could even call them Type 32s, but I wouldn’t.) That would require someone to make decisions before the next election, even before the first T31 has been delivered, so the risk profile will be high. A early gate contract to pay for design and planning could be the best option with the costly build decision left for the next government. It would signal intent to Babcock and help forestall questions about the future of Rosyth in the election run up.

I don’t think that means we shouldn’t look at making Argyll ASW as well. They alleviate the problem over different time periods.

Louis

I agree the first T31s should be left alone, without Mk41 etc. The RN is managing with just 3 GPs in service so the 3rd or 4th T31 could still be upgraded with a sonar without causing too much disruption.

To me it just doesn’t make sense to upgrade a T23 when it will decommission a few years later anyway. With only one that could be upgraded anyway it doesn’t make sense. The RN has many deployments a GP T23 can cover, e.g. FRE, or any NATO deployment, or trials for new weapons systems like Dragonfire, or new aircraft, saving ASW T23s for tasks that require an ASW ship.

Last edited 5 months ago by Louis
N-a-B

As noted above, you’re essentially talking about IRDK and then only because she’s finally available after a long refit.

Fitting 2087 to that ship is not a straightforward task, not least because you’d have to get into the winch well to fit the passive tail and winch and then do a bunch of structural work under the quarterdeck and on the transom to fit the active towed body and winch.

That’s before you get to recommissioning the after Sonar Instrument space, which will also require a bunch of modifications to the local power and CS interfaces.

Probably another 6-12 months in hand to do all that and that also assumes that the ships certification will allow the additional weight.

Best solution is probably to refit F237, but attempt to do it in a shorter timescale. There will be a trade-off between overall cost and time in hand and it won’t be linear.

Moral of the story. Don’t design and build ships for an 18 year life and then try and run them for double that – or at least not in a Navy that requires a safety certification regime as well as time available for sea.

Sean

Yes a lot of work… but if not, we’re down a ASW frigate for years. But all that work has been done previously when the ASW T23 frigates were upgraded so the risks should be reduced. Given the Chilean Navy have managed to retro-fit the S2087 to the Type 23s we sold them it would be embarrassing if the RN can’t manage it.

There’s many morals to the story;
• don’t let short-term funding issues affect investment in long-term project, which leads to delays, greater overall cost, and capability gaps
• don’t have long gaps between ordering warships that results in a loss of skill-base and having to order OPVs just to retain what’s left
• design the frigates to have lots of flexibility in what they can accommodate so that they can cope with new requirements that emerge during the design process

Jon

If it only takes 6-12 months to convert Argyll or Iron Duke to ASW, that sounds vastly better that the current four-plus year estimate to sort out Westminster. Probably vastly cheaper too.

N-a-B

Don’t forget that the four year estimate is based on a workforce planning assumption for Devonport. Westminster herself was built from keel up in under three years.

You should be able to do the ship in well under three years by applying more bodies.

The other thing to remember is the certification issue. The ships have diverged in weight and stability since the mid-noughties.

Atlas

Might be cost effective to consider leasing 3 of the recently decommissioned LCS Freedom class variants from the US as a stop-gap. Could work well in the North Sea and UK waters, ideal to demonstrate PODS modular capabilities and other innovations for future operations.

Duker

Nooooooooooh

More cost effective to use the gigs

180320-brnc-gig-race1
Last edited 5 months ago by Duker
Phil Chadwick

It must be quite embarrassing for the 1SL to give satisfactory answers when he has basically BUGGER ALL to work with in the first place. Who’s fault is it? It’s certainly NOT the Royal Navy’s.

stephen ball

Did watch the video, 50% at 30 days is a good number.
But 50% of F/D 16or17 is only 8.

But looking at the Russian fleet not including the ships in the Pacific. F/D is 15 if they have a 33% at 30days it’s only 5 ships. And 5 F are bottled up in the Black Sea.

Last edited 5 months ago by stephen ball
Theoden

It was interesting that when asked what he would want more of ( than currently planned ) he said OPV’s and MRSS particularly in relation to the RM. This is an interesting insight into what the RN may be proposing and prioritising to a new govt after the next election.

Duker

Thats just a political answer because it please the Navys real masters – The Treasury

White Rat

Changed from coal to steam propulsion? ???? What does he think the coal was burnt to make then? Egg Banjos?

Sean

Err except he didn’t say that, if you watch the video. He says from “sail and coal to oil”.

Supportive Bloke

“ It was implied this delay was all the fault of industry but in fact, the story is rather more complex. The Navy spent almost 30 years deciding what would replace the Type 23 in a convoluted process of changing requirements and a few blind alleys. Years of austerity”

I’m not so sure about that.

The unloved 1SL West got G Brown to accelerate GCS in return for giving up T45 7 & 8.

Cameron, Clegg, Osborne thought it was too expensive and kicked the can. That bit of money ‘saving’ has cost billions. Along with delaying replacing the V boats.

Duker

Thats right . The too expensive angle was was a smokescreen to put spending off, until it could be announced – still largely the previous design-as a pre election ‘bribe’ for the voters. Created havoc for the poor old T23s

Commonwealth Loyalist

I agree and the long term fault lies with the govt in wanting to reduce defense spending rather than increase it, in these times of expanding threats, they think we got through the Cold War so now it is all honky dory.

Cheers

John

N-a-B

I’m afraid not. The requirements for what was the FSC submission in 1999 are essentially the same as those for T26 as approved in 2010. The only requirement change was a brief flirtation with go-faster when the USN were enthralled with LCS, which luckily got squashed quickly.

The simple reason that the three attempts to move FSC/GCS/T26 forward during the period 1999-2007 foundered was that Browns Treasury didn’t want to spend the money.

The subsequent 2010 delay was fairly short and far more to do with a redesign for a specific feature than anything else – followed by a far more prolonged game of chicken over who was going to pay for it.

Last edited 5 months ago by N-a-B
Duker

The last two T45s on option were cancelled in 2009 to provide funding for the new frigate design
this was when the T45 construction costs for 4 and 5 were in the region of £650 mill each.
Your partisan view as usual fails to see the new government in 2010 cut everything- which is well known to everyone else .
Even when the pre election go ahead was given in 2015 , the development of the final design and industrialisation was at a snails pace as by then the project had collided with the start of the new nuclear deterrent Dreadnoughts spending – as of this year the MoD had spent overall, £12 BILL on design, long lead orders ( mostly reactors) etc

Commonwealth Loyalist

Great article as usual. Does highlight why doesn’t UK agree to SPEND MORE ON DEFENSE, Afterall itis desperately needed, 3 or 4% like the US. Global Britain wil depend on it and it costs a lot less than the NHS which suffers from the problem that if you make something free there will be infinite demand. ould not sink to the levels of its other partners like

The UK is a vital part of the Western Alliance and would still be a force to be reckoned with if it would cease choosing economy-stifling socialism over private enterprise and defense.

Cheers

John

Peter (Irate Taxpayer)

All

I am with “Supportive Bloke” on this one.

It is far to easy to just glibly blame the politico’s (both parties) and HM Treasury for the mess today – i.e. too many tasks and not nearly enough warships to go around – when the real root cause issue has to be laid at the door of some very muddled thinking inside the procurement teams of the RN and MOD.

With the Type 23 frigate design of the mid 1980’s the RN had produced a very-competent all-round warship (however admittedly one optimised for North Atlantic ASW). Furthermore the UK shipyards were able to, from about 1988 onwards, produce this warship at the rate of (very roughly) one per year. This was what we now call a regular drumbeat of work.

Furthermore, by the late 1990’s, Merlin’s were coming into operational service. The Merlin is versatile platform which massive increases the effective range and reach of any single frigate.

Hence by 2000, so fully ten years after the end of the original Cold War and also despite the change in government in 1997, the RN had a very competent and quite-modern frigate fleet. It was also getting more modern helicopters.

During these ten years (1990-2000) the UK government was still spending plenty of money on conventional defence forces (Note: All of the big savings in the overall defence budget during that period were coming from reducing size of the British Army of the Rhine and RAF Germany and also the fact that the Trident programme was completed and in-service).

Thus by 2000, by far and away the most-obvious thing for the RN to have done would have been to continue to produce the Type 23. I believe an improved “Batch 2” design would have fitted what the RN needed quite nicely. Several suggestions for improvements and variants of the T23 had been on-the-table since the late 1980’s and the favourite always looked to be a slightly-stretched version.

Accordingly, from 2000 onwards, the RN should have been making hay whilst the sun was still shining = and just continued to produce its popular frigate warships on regular “production line” basis. These could have been ordered from the shipyards that knew how to build them properly, both on time and on budget, at the rate of one per year.

At that time, the total frigate force was planned to number about 30 to 35 (i.e. 1998 SDR). Thus, if frigates have lifespan of about thirty years then the calculation is quite simple. The the RN needed to build one new frigate per year so as to keep its frigate fleet up to strength. (and also take one per year out of service)

However – throughout all of the 1990’s and 2000’s – all that was ever produced by the RN and MOD was concept studies and ever-more-glossy colour brochures. Who on NL remembers:

  • NATO frigate replacement,
  • Future Escort
  • Project Horizon
  • Motherships
  • Cerberus Stealth
  • Fast Flexible Frigate
  • Global Corvette
  • Future Surface Combatants
  • even a Trimaran …

Before 2010 – when RN finally decided it really wanted the Type 26 – there had been two full two decades of just 3D modelling (3D=Dithering, Dawdling and Doodling) and nowt else..= so nothing at all in the frigate-sized warship department was coming down the slipways ………..

and so most of the UK’s commercial shipyards had gone bust (i.e. mainly because of a lack of regular RN orders!)

Thus by 2010 – so once the penny had finally dropped and the RN leadership finally realised that all of their remaining Type 23 were all-too-rapidly approaching the end of their natural lives – the world had changed:

  • The world economy had crashed in autumn 2008 (in the UK alone: bailing out Lehman’s, RBS, Northern Rock, HBOS),
  • the millions of bullets being fired in Afghanistan, all too very little effect, was costing us a large fortune. By 2010 Mr T. Albian was consuming a very big chunk of total defence expenditure

Thus by 2010, after two decades of dithering, once the Navy had finally made up its own mind as to what it wanted, the UK government had no money left….

And we all know only too well that leaving old ships in service for too long racks up massive dockyard bills!

All in all, the RN’s procurement policy for the workhorse of the fleet – its frigates has over the past three decades has been classic case of:

“at first we were indecisive; however then we were not so sure what we wanted”…

Peter The Irate Taxpayer.

N-a-B

Hmm.

NATO Frigate replacement dates from the late 80s, became Horizon which ended up as Type 45. In no way shape or form could the requirement for that have been met by a T23 however modified.

Future Escort became Future Surface Combatant and went for its first initial gate in 1999, which it failed, ostensibly because the requirement for ASW ships could not be justified at that point, but actually because the treasury said no. They tried again in 2003 with the same result – and again in 2006/7 with the S2C2 (sustained surface combatant capability), still HMT weren’t having it. In all cases, the requirement was essentially the same, although the solutions (total clean sheet design (including Trimaran), modification of T45 design or modified foreign design) differed. Every single time, HMT said no.

Cerberus Stealth was a private venture idea (VT IIRC), not an RN idea. Fast Flexible Frigates (possibly BMT NGA?), Global Corvettes, Motherships etc were never formal RN programmes, more stuff put forward by think tanks and as conference papers.

Could the RN have continued building T23? Theoretically, yes. Practically, not so much.

Firstly – what were you building them to replace? Leanders? Already gone. Type 42? No T23 would be area AD capable to the extent required, whatever BAES glossies may have said. T22? Still had plenty of life left and were actually designed for a longer life than T23. So making the case to HMT – and their scrutineers – would have been tricky.

There’s also the minor issue that the design did not (and does not without concessions) meet the various safety and accommodation policies that were by then in place. Everything from damaged stability requirements, through-life margins, accommodation allowance to fire-fighting systems and refrigeration / chiller gases and MARPOL requirements.

Then you’ve got the thorny problem of actually building them. By 2000 there were two surface ship yards left in the country – Yarrow and VT. Arguably you could include Barrow, but the Wave and LPD builds were ongoing – and not ongoing well……Of those, only Yarrow had built frigates since the late 80s. Swan Hunter – the only other T23 builder – died in 1993/4.

Yarrow and VT ended up building T45s collaboratively. One could – again theoretically – have had one yard build T45 (which was why VT moved to Portsmouth) and one build T23, but that would have had two issues. Firstly where’s the money for the extra ship per year coming from? Secondly, by keeping building T23, you atrophy the design teams, which is what happened in any case. Batch modifications don’t exercise the right sets of skills (which is one of the reasons the T26 has been a bit of a palaver). Yarrow were also busy building the Brunei corvettes in the early noughties, although with hindsight, all parties probably wish they hadn’t.

The RN – and DE&S – were well aware that the T23 wouldn’t last forever, it wasn’t a case of waking up and finding a surprise. They had two problems. Firstly, the designs were consistently much larger than they were expecting and there were some who “knew” with absolute certainty that a frigate “should only be 5000-6000te” otherwise it was “unaffordable” (without necessarily seeing a price!). These people took a great deal of convincing and/or outflanking, which is why what is a 9000te plus ship is still described in places as 7000-ish.

Their second problem was that making a compelling case to HMT always came up against the question – “Can you run them on for a bit and defer the decision?” – to which the answer was always a qualified “yes”. It was only at the fourth attempt that the question could be answered – with supporting evidence – “yes – but the cost of doing so will approach the cost of a new build and the time to implement these life extensions will seriously reduce the number available”. At that point – HMT concurred and the programme went forward, only to bump into a change of government and SDSR 2010.

That resulted in a relatively small slip while the need and cost was re-examined. While that was ongoing, a significant change in configuration – not capability – was made which forced a significant redesign, which both ate up time and money and actually induced some compromises in the ships certification, all of which led to a prolonged game of chicken (2-3 years) before any agreement was reached to proceed with the programme, complete basic design and move to detailed design. All complicated by the ToBA dating from 2008 (particularly the bits about right-sizing the Clyde workforce) which meant that the build time was distinctly sub-optimal.

The history is not enjoyable reading. However, it is definitively not a case of the RN not knowing what it wanted. I could read virtually all the line items from the 1999 requirement and they’d be broadly the same for the 2003, 2006/7 and 2010 attemts to get the programme through Initial Gate. It is more a case of a number of transient circumstances obstructing progress, but at the heart of it is lack of control of a long-term capital programme for shipbuilding. Which is the best part of Sir John Parkers National Shipbuilding Strategy – and the one part that remains unfulfilled……..

Barry Larking

“Well, Chairman, had we not spent 75 plus billion on HS2 …”

donald_of_tokyo

If “one T23ASW” will be missing until the 8th T26 come (starting from HMS Westminster), how about improving ASW capability by other means? Adding an “ASW frigate” looks difficult and time/cost consuming.

ASW tasks:

  • Order 6 MQ-9B-ASW SeaGuardian now to be added to the 16 RAF MQ-9B fleet. This will improve the air-borne ASW capability significantly. As Westminster were to come back in late 2024 or 2025, if a few ASW SeaGuardian kit can be delivered by then, it will “fill the gap”.
  • When the 8th T26 come and frigate-based ASW capability resumes by 12.5% in 2036, disband about 3 Merlin-ASW in place. (here I guess 6 MQ-9B SeaGuardian costs about a half of a Merlin)

Meanwhile, for tasks “other than ASW”

Patrol and shadowing Russian and Chinese warships:

  • lease 2 of the 2 RNZN Otago-class OPV from 2024-2028 or so to fill the gap.
  • build 2 River B2mod (maybe the 94m version with Wildcat hangar) in Cammel Laird with BAES support, to come into service around 2028 and “replace” the leased 2 RNZN OPVs.
  • extend the River B1 life further until 2030, and build replacement class of the 3 River B1 OPV at Rosyth, to come into service from 2029 onward (after T31-hull5)
  • When the frigate number resumes in 2036, 2 of the 5 River B2s can be soled. At the age of 18 years, no problem.

Anti-Surface:

  • I understand the current plans for the 11 sets is for 5 of the 8 T23ASWs and 6 T45s. So, no capability reduction.
  • NGFS, just accept degradation. Luckily, the “6 more MQ-9B SeaGuardian” can be converted to do precision land strike to partly compensate NGFS. Anyway, NGFS by 114 mm gun is not a priority these days.

Just my thoughts.

Jason

Francois ans former loser Ellwood want the ships to stay at sea despite famuky issues and lack of manpower. Neither offer any solution just stay at sea damn sailors

Will

The British military in general, and the Royal Navy in particular, are much, much too small. It is absolutely irresponsible for an island nation like the UK, and one that has ambitions much further afield from the home isles, to have let its navy dwindle down to its current emaciated state. This is a terrible indictment of the entire UK political system.

Ian Donald

It was clear from its beginning that using a civilian contractor to recruit RN, RAF and Army staff could only offer a second rate, clerical process and a poor outcome. If members of the forces are not involved in recruitment, the connection between the citizens of the UK, especially the young ones who will form our armed forces, and the forces themselves is severely weakened. If put back into the hands of serving officers and experienced soldiers, sailors and airmen/women, serving or recently retired, we can turn the process round. It’s not difficult.